Go Back   AzBilliards.com > Tournament Talk > Derby City Classic/Southern Classic
Reload this Page Was anyone there to see Jimmy Mataya crawl out from his rock
Reply
Page 4 of 6 « First 234 56
 
Share Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 17 votes, 5.00 average.
That was easy
Old
  (#46)
freddy the beard
Freddy Bentivegna
freddy the beard has a reputation beyond reputefreddy the beard has a reputation beyond reputefreddy the beard has a reputation beyond reputefreddy the beard has a reputation beyond reputefreddy the beard has a reputation beyond reputefreddy the beard has a reputation beyond reputefreddy the beard has a reputation beyond reputefreddy the beard has a reputation beyond reputefreddy the beard has a reputation beyond reputefreddy the beard has a reputation beyond reputefreddy the beard has a reputation beyond repute
 
freddy the beard's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 2,318
vCash: 500
iTrader: 10 / 92%
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: chicago illinois
   
That was easy - 01-21-2007, 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by vagabond
I always believed and I still believe that the PURITONIC values America has embraced have negative influence on pool.I strongly believe that this is the main reason for not getting sponsorship from Non pool industries and corporations.I strongly believe that no body is going to admitt that their opinions on pool are influenced by puritonic values.I strongly believe that many Americans do not realize how much they are being influenced by Puritonic values in day to day living.

Jimmy Mattaya has always been my most favorite player.I rather watch a match between Jimmy M v Keith McCreedy than Effren V Ralph Soquet.

By the way I have a quiz for friends of Jimmy Mattaya. Where did Jimmy take Ewa for the first date?
He took her to a baseball game that he was betting on.
the Beard


Bank on, brother!

100s of pgs of pool goodness on my site
www.bankingwiththebeard.com
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#47)
gulfportdoc
AzB Silver Member
gulfportdoc has a reputation beyond reputegulfportdoc has a reputation beyond reputegulfportdoc has a reputation beyond reputegulfportdoc has a reputation beyond reputegulfportdoc has a reputation beyond reputegulfportdoc has a reputation beyond reputegulfportdoc has a reputation beyond reputegulfportdoc has a reputation beyond reputegulfportdoc has a reputation beyond reputegulfportdoc has a reputation beyond reputegulfportdoc has a reputation beyond repute
 
gulfportdoc's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,182
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Gulfport, Mississippi
   
01-21-2007, 12:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnav447
Watching the Derby City Classic, I was struck by how colorless most of today's top players are (exception of Earl, of course). The players mentioned above, plus Danny DiLiberto, Larry Liscioti, Ronnie Allen, Cole Dickson, Johhny Ervalino, Danny Jones, Cornbread Red and others had major charisma and big-time personality to go with their talent. I remember Rempe, Mataya and Marino all looked like they just stepped out of GQ magazine and were in competition to see who could look the sharpest; pretty impressive group.
Right you are, Jnav. Today's top players have all the charisma of a beige carpet, except they don't look as good. It pretty much mirrors modern American societal decay: bland, and blander. Everyone is afraid of saying or doing anything that might offend somebody. As a result --since there are very few interesting characters in pool these days-- pool has gone from an exciting, fascinating sport with no money in it, to a dull, mediocre sport with no money in it...

Doc
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#48)
Timberly
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
iTrader: / %
   
01-21-2007, 12:58 PM

Back then, it doesn't seem like the focus of pro level players was the pro tour. Those guys were more gamblers and enjoyed the adrenaline rush of woofing, and playing for stakes more so than the tournament play. I think the tide turned with the demise of the men's tour.

When Charlie came on the scene trying to resurrect a men's pro tour, he raised the bar on appearance & the focus of pro players. Pro level players sought out a spot on the pro tour and in turn, toned down the player personality of the past in hopes of making a name for themselves on tour and obtaining sponsorship.

Players of the past, while colorful and much loved by us die hard fans, were a possible hazard to potential sponsors that didn't want to run the risk of offending customers by putting their stamp of approval on a known hustler that the general public still see's as a seedy pool room degenerate, no matter how misconstrued that idea might be.

Players would rather take the "corporate" route and have a sponsor help them financially. It's a much easier life than footing the bill yourself and having to spend long nights in pool rooms gambling to pay the bills.

I love the characters of pool from "back in the day" and find them and pool much more entertaining, but from a financial security standpoint, I can see why the tables have turned to what we have today. JMO
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#49)
Worminator
<--- Haleyness!
Worminator has a reputation beyond reputeWorminator has a reputation beyond reputeWorminator has a reputation beyond reputeWorminator has a reputation beyond reputeWorminator has a reputation beyond reputeWorminator has a reputation beyond reputeWorminator has a reputation beyond reputeWorminator has a reputation beyond reputeWorminator has a reputation beyond reputeWorminator has a reputation beyond reputeWorminator has a reputation beyond repute
 
Worminator's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 5,798
vCash: 2950
iTrader: 158 / 99%
Blog Entries: 4
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
   
01-21-2007, 03:55 PM

Good post, and I couldn't agree more Timberly.

When I wanted to see professionals acting and playing like professionals, I went into the tournament room and looked for the Filipinos playing each other, or someone like Neils, Thorsten, or Corey. When I wanted to see the "characters", I went to the action room.


.
Jamie



..............."The trusted name in cue deals"
You can also feel free to text me at the number above
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#50)
JAM
On the Hill
JAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond repute
 
JAM's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 33,983
vCash: 325
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Oct 2004
   
01-21-2007, 04:27 PM

I think a men's pro tour would remedy the problem that exists today with American professional players.

The men's pro tour, though, should be transparent and provide a level playing field where all players, if they pay their dues and are a member, are treated equally.

The men's pro tour must enforce a ranking system that is applicable to ALL players. When rules are changed willy nilly and players are hand-picked behind closed doors to compete in high-profile advents and an existing ranking system is not adhered to, a men's pro tour is nothing more than a good old boys' club, one which benefits only a chosen few.

I like tournament soldiers as much as the next pool enthusiast, but when an organization discriminates, prohibits players from competing in events, and hand-picks a chosen few, it is, in fact, destructive to pool in the United States.

Whether you like it or not, there are some American players which are hustlers, gamblers, and road players from the past. Some of the BCA's Hall of Famers would most definitely fall into that category. Today, many of these hustlers, gamblers, and road players are tournament soldiers. If an organization discriminates against them and benefits only a chosen few, then the organization is corrupt. If that is what some desire for American pro players, then I vehemently disagree with their opinion.

JAM

Last edited by JAM; 01-21-2007 at 04:36 PM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#51)
Timberly
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
iTrader: / %
   
01-21-2007, 04:49 PM

Jennie, I hope you weren't directing your post at me because if you did, you missed my point completely. Everyone knows your beef with the UPA/Charlie and you're not the only one to have one. I only brought his name up to show that seems to be when things changed. I didn't praise him and say he was the savior. I simply said he raised the bar in the players appearance. It was nice to go to a pro tournament and see the guys in collard shirts and dress pants as opposed to sweat suits. None of my post had anything to do with the political BS of the UPA and certain individuals. It was a post about how pool has changed in the last 20 or 30 yrs and what my opinion is of what changed it to where it is today.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#52)
manwon
"WARLOCK 1"
manwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond repute
 
manwon's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 14,184
vCash: 4100
iTrader: 68 / 100%
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Near the Cascade Mountains
   
01-21-2007, 04:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberly
Back then, it doesn't seem like the focus of pro level players was the pro tour. Those guys were more gamblers and enjoyed the adrenaline rush of woofing, and playing for stakes more so than the tournament play. I think the tide turned with the demise of the men's tour.

When Charlie came on the scene trying to resurrect a men's pro tour, he raised the bar on appearance & the focus of pro players. Pro level players sought out a spot on the pro tour and in turn, toned down the player personality of the past in hopes of making a name for themselves on tour and obtaining sponsorship.

Players of the past, while colorful and much loved by us die hard fans, were a possible hazard to potential sponsors that didn't want to run the risk of offending customers by putting their stamp of approval on a known hustler that the general public still see's as a seedy pool room degenerate, no matter how misconstrued that idea might be.

Players would rather take the "corporate" route and have a sponsor help them financially. It's a much easier life than footing the bill yourself and having to spend long nights in pool rooms gambling to pay the bills.

I love the characters of pool from "back in the day" and find them and pool much more entertaining, but from a financial security standpoint, I can see why the tables have turned to what we have today. JMO
Good Post Timberly, however when you say: Players of the past, while colorful and much loved by us die hard fans, were a possible hazard to potential sponsors that didn't want to run the risk of offending customers by putting their stamp of approval on a known hustler that the general public still see's as a seedy pool room degenerate, no matter how misconstrued that idea might be.

Players would rather take the "corporate" route and have a sponsor help them financially. It's a much easier life than footing the bill yourself and having to spend long nights in pool rooms gambling to pay the bills.

I love the characters of pool from "back in the day" and find them and pool much more entertaining, but from a financial security standpoint, I can see why the tables have turned to what we have today. JMO [/



I have to disagree with you completely, the players who brought the most recognition to the game of Pool / Billiards were the loud mouths, and they are also the ones that will be remembered far into the future by the General public. Take Fat's as a case in point, to this day if you walk into any tavern or local bar nation wide and ask the public who is the greatest player / hustler of all time someone will pipe up with Minnesota Fats.

The problem with making pool fit in to society is not public opinion, because trust me the public loves colorful people. I think it is however, the way pool has been promoted during the last 30 years, and the individuals who promoted it. I think that colorful front men and women are the answer, because everyone has a little bit of the dark side within them and many people will not allow this to come out. However, by watching a very very colorful individual promote an event or a sport people can let their hair down a little and place themselves in that persons place for just a little while and just sit back and watch the show.

They will also never forget the individual and the sport the individual promoted. The current route pool promoters are taking will kill pool as a sport in the not to distant future. I mean look at 3 Cushion Billiards, it is all but dead in America, the game was always a more aristocratic type of billiard game. The players where Tuxedo's clap for their opponent when they make a good shot, now while this is polite it is also --------BORING. I have been a REF / Score keeper at US National Championships and one event where the top world players competed. I also love the game myself, however, it is a hard sell to the public in this country. Now in Europe, the players are looked up too and the game is popular. This is no accident, it directly due to the front men for the sport and the promoters of the sport.

Further more, the greatest pool players are seedy pool room degenerates and this statement has nothing to do with their educational level, this is the nature of pool I mean why act one way in front of the public and then retire to a pool room and act completely a different way.

In closing the public wants something exciting, this will draw more positive attention to pool long term than the kinder aristocratic approach. Everytime pool has had a resurgence it has been due to the seedy side of billiards. Take the Movie The Hustler, and of course The Color of Money both of these movies created an environment for record sales of billiard equipment and they also kick started the entire industry and both were seedy. Again, Lets not forget about Fat's, he was the greatest front man pool ever had, but I suspect there are others who could take his place with the proper promotion and with a truly Honest and dedicated promoter, oh and by the way that promoter will also have to be a Loud Mouthed Seedy individual, because that is what people will listen to, they may shake their heads, however they will also have a little smile on their face and they will not be able to wait for the next time they can see an event..


Best Regards

"Warlock 1"

Craig W. Rittel
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#53)
JAM
On the Hill
JAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond reputeJAM has a reputation beyond repute
 
JAM's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 33,983
vCash: 325
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Oct 2004
   
01-21-2007, 04:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberly
Jennie, I hope you weren't directing your post at me because if you did, you missed my point completely.
I did not direct my post at anybody. I was stating my opinion, as you did earlier in the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberly
Everyone knows your beef with the UPA/Charlie and you're not the only one to have one. I only brought his name up to show that seems to be when things changed. I didn't praise him and say he was the savior. I simply said he raised the bar in the players appearance.
There may be some happenings in the past which may not have affected you personally, Timberly, but for some players who were discriminated against, these happenings in the past most definitely did affect their income, and it was due to an organization which was not transparent and did not treat all of its members equally.

I think players dressed up for tournaments before Charlie Williams hit the scene. When American pool players were wearing uncomfortable tuxedos competing in ballrooms, the sponsors didn't seem to come a running.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberly
It was nice to go to a pro tournament and see the guys in collard shirts and dress pants as opposed to sweat suits. None of my post had anything to do with the political BS of the UPA and certain individuals. It was a post about how pool has changed in the last 20 or 30 yrs and what my opinion is of what changed it to where it is today.
I understand and respect your opinion, Timberly.

Unfortunately, pool has not changed in the last 20 or 30 years. In fact, IMHO, the corruption of pool organizations has made it worse.

JAM
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#54)
Timberly
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
iTrader: / %
   
01-21-2007, 05:42 PM

Manwon, I agree with everything you said. What I stated in my post was more of an observation from the outside looking in... trying to figure out what it was that caused the changes from then to now. Personally, I'd take the pool world 20 yrs ago over the pool word today.

Jennie, I give up. Nothing about my post was about the UPA except that Charlie required a dress code. Subsequently, after the UPA, it seemed the players changed focus & looked more towards sponsorship instead of playing on the road.(the parts in bold was included in the same paragraph but it was in no way about the UPA) Yes, players wore tux's but that was before my time. When I came onto the pool scene almost 20 yrs ago, everyone wore sweat suits. I only ever saw Tony Ellin (RIP) in a collard shirt twice that I can think of and both times he was wearing jogging pants.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#55)
vagabond
AzB Silver Member
vagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond repute
 
vagabond's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 4,205
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Las Vegas baby!!!
   
01-21-2007, 06:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by freddy the beard
He took her to a baseball game that he was betting on.
the Beard
Freddie u amazed me with yore memory about a trivial issue that happened more than 25 years ago( not trivial to Jimmy because it was his first date with a gorgeous women).
Yes he took her to a ball game to yankee stadium in Newyork.
Freddie I am going to buy yore new book and also recommend it to others.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#56)
ribdoner
SATISFACTION GUARANTEED
ribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond repute
 
ribdoner's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 9,589
vCash: 4300
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: cordova
   
01-21-2007, 06:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by vagabond
Freddie u amazed me with yore memory about a trivial issue that happened more than 25 years ago( not trivial to Jimmy because it was his first date with a gorgeous women).
Yes he took her to a ball game to yankee stadium in Newyork.
Freddie I am going to buy yore new book and also recommend it to others.
What was the outcome or was the game called on count of a muddy field?
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#57)
manwon
"WARLOCK 1"
manwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond reputemanwon has a reputation beyond repute
 
manwon's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 14,184
vCash: 4100
iTrader: 68 / 100%
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Near the Cascade Mountains
   
01-21-2007, 06:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberly
Manwon, I agree with everything you said. What I stated in my post was more of an observation from the outside looking in... trying to figure out what it was that caused the changes from then to now. Personally, I'd take the pool world 20 yrs ago over the pool word today.

Jennie, I give up. Nothing about my post was about the UPA except that Charlie required a dress code. Subsequently, after the UPA, it seemed the players changed focus & looked more towards sponsorship instead of playing on the road.(the parts in bold was included in the same paragraph but it was in no way about the UPA) Yes, players wore tux's but that was before my time. When I came onto the pool scene almost 20 yrs ago, everyone wore sweat suits. I only ever saw Tony Ellin (RIP) in a collard shirt twice that I can think of and both times he was wearing jogging pants.
That is also what I stated in my post to you, the public are the only ones who matter, if they get what they and that is colorful people, it really matters not what their wearing within reason. This sport is promoted to a working class audiences, and these are the people who can identify with the players!!!! Not the rich.

Last of all, if you want to really figure out what the changes are and what has caused the problems the Top Players are having today, it is the Organizations that have represented pool and the front men for these Organizations good intentions do not cut it, only actions count.

I suppose we can agree to disagree


Best Regards

"Warlock 1"

Craig W. Rittel
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#58)
jay helfert
Shoot Pool, not people
jay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond repute
 
jay helfert's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 26,610
vCash: 500
iTrader: 136 / 100%
Join Date: Nov 2004
   
01-21-2007, 06:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM
In a July-August 1985 Accu-Stats newsletter, Volume 1, No. 5, there is a a Scores and Accu-Stats Averages chart, and Jimmy Mataya had a .905 and a .907 Accu-Stats score during two of his matches in Moline.

Funny quote heard at this event: "This guy's playing so bad that he's making me play bad. In fact, if he beats me, it'll be his own fault."

For overall break performance rankings at the Moline tournament, Jimmy Mataya scored the highest. Out of 80 games, he had 48 break shots which resulted in 38 of the breaks pocketing balls without scratch, FWIW! Wade Crane won the event, BTW, and enjoyed a total performance of .890

I think it was in the early '80s that Jimmy Mataya was in his prime. Like some great American players, Jimmy left the sport and decided not to compete anymore.

Let it be said that you can take Jimmy away from pool, but you can't take the pool away from Jimmy. Today, he will attend most of the American high-profile events, mostly as a spectator, because pool for Jimmy Mataya, like most of us on this forum, is a strong passion. He is, IMHO, an American pool legendary figure, but a legend which may not be known to some younger folk.

Last night, I made a phone call inquiry about a website problem, and the service provider's customer service was located in the Philippines. We discussed my website issues, and then I just couldn't help myself when, at the end of the conversation, I stated to him, "I have heard great things about the Philippines. Have you ever heard of Efren Reyes?" His whole demeanor changed when he responded, "Of course," and we began to talk about pool. He was well aware of Ronnie Alcano's victory at the WPC, and he also held Jose Parica in the highest regard. This was a 27-year-old Filipino, a young'n in my book.

America is conflicted about pool, with strong views in different camps about what it should look like in the public's eye. There ain't much interest in pool as a sport in America, for a variety of reasons. Whereas, the Philippines, on the other hand, celebrates the sport and adores all of its players.

It is a shame that American players like Jimmy Mataya made the decision to leave the sport. Here in America, existing players are continuing to leave the sport for a variety of reasons, and there aren't very many young players entering the sport to take their place. The American pool culture is so busy beating itself up that they might not realize this sometimes.

Picture taken last year at the Venetian in Vegas of an American legendary pool player depicted on the right: Jimmy "Pretty Boy" Mataya.

JAM
By the way Jam, there ain't any more legendary than the guy next to Pretty Boy. If you mention the name Keith to pool players anywhere, they know exactly who you're talking about. "Ether" will suffice as well. Or even "Earthquake" may get the same response.

For my money, Pro Pool could use a few more like him and Louie. Alex is about the closest I've seen for his bubbly personality.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#59)
Timberly
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
iTrader: / %
   
01-21-2007, 06:43 PM

This is for Fidget, formerly known as Limen. In regards to the negative rep points you tried (you have to have points in order to give or take away from someone else) to leave me.

Go back and re-read my post....slowly. You'll see that I NEVER said the players of yesterday were a disgrace! I have been defending those players against others on here that have talked badly about them.

I can only assume you're referencing the part where I said "the general public still see's as a seedy pool room degenerate, no matter how misconstrued that idea might be."

Please re-read that S L O W L Y.

Sheesh, some people see one or two words and they get tunnel vision about it and fail to see what the WHOLE post said.

If you aren't going to read all of my post, then don't read it at all. If you make a post in reference and I think you misunderstood what I said, I'll be more than happy to politely point out that you misunderstood me. If you took it the way I meant it, I'll admit that's the way that I meant it and defend my point. If it ends up that I'm wrong, I'll admit that I was wrong and made a mistake.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#60)
vagabond
AzB Silver Member
vagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond reputevagabond has a reputation beyond repute
 
vagabond's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 4,205
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Las Vegas baby!!!
   
01-21-2007, 06:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ribdoner
What was the outcome or was the game called on count of a muddy field?

I do not know.
  
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 4 of 6 « First 234 56

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.