Is Thomas Engert 491 more impressive than Mosconi's 526?

i think it is more impressive. however mosconi's 526 was just a high run he did with people around to document it. i believe his personal best run is even higher then 526.

different balls and different cloth too. today, the balls spread pretty easily, so they say. but i think 526 in it's day far outstripped other runs, while there are a few 400's. am i wrong on this?

really no way to compare runs from different eras

What size pockets did Willie's table and Engert's have? What cloth? What balls? What shape were the cloth and cushions in?

There are too many variables to compare runs from different eras. Even the lighting can make a substantial difference. I do think that a modern player could surpass the official record and I wish one would just to lay the controversy to rest.

Hu

Slim J said:

I believe that Mike Eufemia ran 625. But for those top 14.1 players out there or anybody, is Thomas Engert's 491 on a 9 x 4 1/2 more impressive than Mosconi's 526 on a 4 x 8?
To me it is. I just think the idea of balls getting more tied up on a smaller table are far outweighed by the smaller table and overall shorter shots.

I'm not trying to deminish Mosconi's accomplishments but when I heard it was done on a 4 x 8 I was surprised.

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Just as an aside, Mosconi's 526 has become so legendary and engrained into pocket billiards lore, that I wonder if anybody would ever even claim to have beaten the record unless they had a healthy crowd of people watching from beginning to end.

Cameron Smith said:

Just as an aside, Mosconi's 526 has become so legendary and engrained into pocket billiards lore, that I wonder if anybody would ever even claim to have beaten the record unless they had a healthy crowd of people watching from beginning to end.

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yeah, i think so, because so much of the pool personalities revolve around bravado and pride.

Both are impressive.

From my perspective, attempting to determine (by public opinion) which of the two is more impressive is an exercise in futility.

I applaud them both.

not more impressive

Cameron Smith said:

Just as an aside, Mosconi's 526 has become so legendary and engrained into pocket billiards lore, that I wonder if anybody would ever even claim to have beaten the record unless they had a healthy crowd of people watching from beginning to end.

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Willie's 526 is the official exibition record
which is to say it was recognized by Brunswick

Brunswick so dominated pool/billiards in those days,
that, if a player won a tourney played on a table other than Brunswick,
the victory wasn't reconised "officially"

this is why the run was on a 4 x 8, there was a 9 footer in that
poolroom, but Willie couldn't play on it because it wasn't a Bruns

to show just how much western civilization has degraded in the last
60 - 70 years, in the heyday, Brunswick would sponsor 14.1 champions
like Willie, Crane, Caras, etc to scour the USA giving 'Pocket Billiards'
exhibitions. Typically they would play the local room champ straight pool
to 100 points, then shoot some trick and fancy shots, followed<maybe>
by a few playing tips and pointers.

The Hi run records came out of these exhibitions - if the player had run out
the game, which Willie usually did, he would keep shooting untill he missed

It was these runs, and only these runs, that were sanctioned by Brunswick
through, IIRC, something called the BCA( not the BCA of today,BTW)

that is why the 'practice' hi runs weren't considered as records
FWIW there is a story of Willie, practicing on his in home 9 ft Anniversary,
running like 670 balls, and quitting with a perfect break-shot, because
it was time to go eat dinner

I'M sure, in his prime, he could have run 1000 in practice had he cared to

Dale

Bob Jewett said:

Also, as far as the balls go, I think clay balls are less likely to skid.

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Because.... why? There's clay around here. Maybe I'll make me some!

unknownpro

Bob Jewett said:

Both Mosconi and Crane had run over 300 on 5X10's in the 30's and 40's, which I think has to be ranked up there with the 526. I think it's much easier to run lots of balls on a smaller table if you have a good short-position game, and I think few beat Mosconi at that.

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BJ,
I very much agree. In his autobiography, Willie bemoaned the change to 9 footers. He mentioned that the pockets on the 9 footers were buckets compared to the usual 10 footers they had been used to using. A run above 300 on a tight 10 footer is just sick.

bruin70 said:

yeah, i think so, because so much of the pool personalities revolve around bravado and pride.

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lol, very true.


pdcue and Bob Jewett- you guys are right, but what I was wondering about is that, you hear Babe Cranfield ran 700 somethin, and Mike Eufema ran 625, but in the twenty or thirty years since I haven't heard of anyone running past 500 even in practice. But then again, 14.1 isn't a very important game anymore so I suppose if it were the championship game more players would be playing, and someone would likely have surpassed the run.

As for the original question in this thread. It is hard to say, it would depend on the table entirely. Since Engert did his on 9 footer I would be inclined to say his was more of an accomplishment. Nevertheless I'm gonna side with Willie on this one because he is awsome. Illogical I know.

Also keep in mind, when Willie made that 526 run, he just QUIT. He never missed a shot, he just had nothing more to prove since it was just an exhibition....

Willie will never be dethroned for a few reasons....

1. No one knows how high he really could have ran had he not quit.

2. No ones that good to beat him anyhow, and now a days they are using big ass bucket tables compaired to what they ran back in the day.

3. Willie has countless runs of 300 blocks on a 5X10 that no one will ever touch either.

Jedi V Man said:

Also keep in mind, when Willie made that 526 run, he just QUIT. He never missed a shot, he just had nothing more to prove since it was just an exhibition....

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I don't believe that this is accurate. I believe that he did, infact, miss after 526. I believe that this has been debated here before and the concensus was that he did miss after 526.

I am humbled by both. I am convinced Engert, Hohman, Schmidt or Harriman could equal the 526 if they had sufficient motivation to. I wish there would be a challenge where some serious prize money was offered to best the record. Someone needs to mention it to KT.

look in his book

JDB said:

I don't believe that this is accurate. I believe that he did, infact, miss after 526. I believe that this has been debated here before and the concensus was that he did miss after 526.

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Willie's Game pg 167

"...then I ran 200 and just keep going...I finally MISSED a difficult cut shot..."

also documented in the Springfield newspaper.

hope this helps
Dale

Agree, John's video is great!

I agree John Schmidt's video is great. One thing to remember is that he is effective playing the ghost to 150 in this video so this does affect his style of play I would think. I wonder if he normally breaks the rack that aggressively? There is no such thing as safety play racing the ghost and he admits that he wouldn't take some of the shots on the DVD in a tournament. On the other hand he also says that his theory of how to play 14.1 is to stay at the table.

Hard to guess his usual game watching the DVD. It is a very impressive exhibition on a pretty standard table. I enjoyed it and hope I get a chance to watch John playing 14.1 sometime. I do agree that Mosconi's record would be in serious jeopardy if there were a financial incentive to go after it. John would be one of the people in the running for the record.

Hu

Slim J said:

By the way John's DVD is great. He plays 14.1 in a bit of a different style than the older classic way. A bit looser and I think its a better way to play and run balls.

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