“Less Lucky” Version of 10 Ball?

For example, if I rattle an object ball and my cue ball unintentionally lands wedged behind a group of other balls, brutally snookering my opponent, I’m probably going to get paid off with ball in hand - even though I was the one that made the mistake.


EDIT: Realized from some of your posts that this does exist as “Call Shot/Call Safe” 10 ball. Thanks!
What was the "mistake"? You (presumably) made a legal shot and missed. That isn't a mistake. Incoming players turn.

One of the dumbest bastardized rulesets ever was those couple of events they had with that kneejerk absurd call shot call safe crap. Good thing it went away quick.
 
What was the "mistake"? You (presumably) made a legal shot and missed. That isn't a mistake. Incoming players turn.

One of the dumbest bastardized rulesets ever was those couple of events they had with that kneejerk absurd call shot call safe crap. Good thing it went away quick.
I like it. Makes for a more intensely thought out game. More chess like. A good called safety can win you a game especially if a player kicks or jumps poorly. Safeties win games.
On that thought, many players think the object of a game is to run out, rotation games especially. It isn't.
The object of the game is to win the game. Sometimes a hard lesson to learn.
 
i've played it in sparring and it could have its place there as a variance, but i don't think it should be the mainstream rule
 
What was the "mistake"? You (presumably) made a legal shot and missed. That isn't a mistake. Incoming players turn.

One of the dumbest bastardized rulesets ever was those couple of events they had with that kneejerk absurd call shot call safe crap. Good thing it went away quick.
Yep, the Johnny Archer classic in 2012 used those jacked up rules, it was pathetic.
 
What was the "mistake"? You (presumably) made a legal shot and missed. That isn't a mistake. Incoming players turn.

One of the dumbest bastardized rulesets ever was those couple of events they had with that kneejerk absurd call shot call safe crap. Good thing it went away quick.
The mistake was the missed shot. In this example, it was not my intent to rattle the ball in the pocket, and let’s say my cue ball speed was off and I snooker it behind a group of balls unintentionally.

Yes, it was technically a “legal” shot but my application of spin/speed/aim was executed incorrectly, so I should not be rewarded (if playing competitively).

Interesting how folks have such a strong aversion to call shot/call foul. Why should one not be punished for not executing the shot/leave they planned/intended? Speaking for competitive play, not for casual play or entertainment.
 
Why? A little more thought goes into it.
Do you ever play one pocket?

yes, 1p is my game of choice

why what? why variance? we do all kinds of weird incentive stipulations when playing 9b/10b. pay for BNR's to incentivize aggression, call safe to incentivize cb control, just toughen up practice. tables are stock GC's with 5" pockets, so adding stuff like that is helpful and productive
 
Call shot call safe 10 ball is the best rotation game.

I am not playing pool to entertain spectators. I am playing to entertain myself. Chess doesn’t have much luck, it only has blunders. Do you watch chess matches? If you don’t, why not?

In billiards, luck is something to be ashamed about.

It is the opposite of billiards excellence.
 
The mistake was the missed shot. In this example, it was not my intent to rattle the ball in the pocket, and let’s say my cue ball speed was off and I snooker it behind a group of balls unintentionally.

Yes, it was technically a “legal” shot but my application of spin/speed/aim was executed incorrectly, so I should not be rewarded (if playing competitively).

Interesting how folks have such a strong aversion to call shot/call foul. Why should one not be punished for not executing the shot/leave they planned/intended? Speaking for competitive play, not for casual play or entertainment.

You ever hear of a two way shot? These rules completely take that option away.
 
You ever hear of a two way shot? These rules completely take that option away.
Pick one and pocket it.
That's 10 ball call shot call safe.
Percentages. More decisions to make hence luck is taken out of the game. Or just make them both.
 
Call shot call safe 10 ball is the best rotation game.

I am not playing pool to entertain spectators. I am playing to entertain myself. Chess doesn’t have much luck, it only has blunders. Do you watch chess matches? If you don’t, why not?

In billiards, luck is something to be ashamed about.

It is the opposite of billiards excellence.
This aligns with my philosophy on the game, as well. Watching a 9 ball match as a spectator might be more exciting because it leaves room for more uncertainty, but as a skill game, 10 ball call shot/call safe creates less room for ambiguity and that in itself makes it a more pure game IMO.

I understand the gambling history behind 9 ball and the “fun” factor it provides spectators (and players). But as a pure measure of skill and tact, I don’t see how one could argue for 9 ball in favor of 10 ball call shot/safe.

Both games deserve to exist for their own reasons.
 
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That’s not the way the game was meant to be played but to each their own. If I miss a ball and get perfect position on my next ball you should not be able to give it back because you can’t see the ball I missed.
Interesting perspective and I guess that’s where we disagree. If you miss a ball (a critical error), I shouldn’t ever have to come with a hero kick/jump just to make legal contact - with a high probability of fouling and giving you ball in hand. You’re getting a golden reward for a missed ball, not a punishment.

A missed ball should not leave your opponent in an even worse situation without the choice to pass IMO (if we’re playing in competition and not just for fun).
 
That’s not the way the game was meant to be played but to each their own. If I miss a ball and get perfect position on my next ball you should not be able to give it back because you can’t see the ball I missed.
Agree 100%. What really kills me is that the two most watched/highest paying cue games on the planet, snooker and Heyball, allow flukes/slop/shit/pick ur adjective and no one whines about the luck factor. Even in 1p, supposedly the gold standard of pure skill, you see games won/lost on crazy slop shots. Again, no one bitches about it. But 10b must be held to some higher degree of 'purity'. Missing a ball is not a foul and should not be penalized as such. Thankfully no pro 10b events plays cs/cs.
 
Rules will not even the playing field against better players. Or make much difference at all no matter who is participating in the long run.

Lesser players get rolls and the better player usually overcome them in a match longer than three games. On rare occasions not but that is usually because the better player has an off day or the other player has a great day.
I agree. Hope you are doing well Coos.
 
I’ve been playing a lot of 10 ball lately because I enjoy calling shots. That takes a significant amount of luck out of the game (as an amateur player).

However, there’s still plenty of rolls to be had.

For example, if I rattle an object ball and my cue ball unintentionally lands wedged behind a group of other balls, brutally snookering my opponent, I’m probably going to get paid off with ball in hand - even though I was the one that made the mistake.

In 10 ball, if the shooter slops in a ball, the incoming player has the choice to either take the shot or pass it back. I’ve considered an additional rule that if the shooter misses their called shot, the incoming player also can choose to either take the shot or pass it back. This negates the lucky leaves where a player gets paid off for a miss.

Any thoughts? Has anyone tried this or a variation?

EDIT: Realized from some of your posts that this does exist as “Call Shot/Call Safe” 10 ball. Thanks!
I've talked about this alooooooot in the past, and yes its true that missing a ball sometimes can be a blessing rather than a curse because as you said in pool if a player misses a shot and then what happens after it is cruel for the opponent, in other words like the example you said, then if that opponent dont hit the ball, even tho I've made a mistake I still got ball in hand, which is a very very very bad design in my opinion.

There are many other examples by the way, which brings up my old posts where I've spoken about small pockets and how they don't favor the game and pretty much due to the ("WHAT HAPPENS AFTEER" a player missing a ball) Type of game.

Because sometimes with small pockets there are many misses and then all that is added to the game is extra-luck factor, I've spoken about this and ppl asked me "How is smaller pockets adds more luck to the game" and I kept explaining that after a missed shot the thing to watch for is "WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THE MISS" will the incoming player get hooked? will the opponent who missed a shot i.e. made a mistake, will he come back smelling like roses with either an easy shot or ball in hand? I mean all those factors are just a luck-added to the game which is already terrible for the game, not to mention the other big luck factor which is the break....

But to me the missing balls luck factor is very bad and horrible design, think about it... a guy made a mistake but we dont know what will happen after, sometimes the next player gets a shot, sometimes the guy who missed the ball will get easier shot right after which means you have all in the hands of luck essentially, we don't know what will happen next.

###########

Ok so you said the solution is to have a call shots for everything, and call safe, so then if a player missed a ball, the next player can tell the oppoent shoot again.

To me I think this isnt good and can be boring....as some said, but I think the solution to this is a rule we have in 7ball game, which I believe should be a rule for all around rotation games like 9ball, 10ball and all, and this rule is very simple and can be described in one line.

A player with new inning always gets ball in hand, unless a safe is called.

Thats the rule, fixes everything.

There's no more "Oh I missed but what will happen after, is my opponent gona get luck safe?" -- this doesn't exist anymore, you will never see your oppoenent making cruel horrible shot and big mistake and after hanging at the table to see his leave and if he hooks you, no he wont stay at the table to do this which annoys the hell out of me....

If he misses? Ball in hand, instantly.

If he calls safe, then you play where it lands.

You have 3 SAFE calls during one rack as a maximum, this prevents boring game-play and allows for somewhat of a safety battle if needed.

This rule will fix everything, you dont even have to call pockets, just dont miss.....this also make the games more offensive, I like it!
 
Interesting perspective and I guess that’s where we disagree. If you miss a ball (a critical error), I shouldn’t ever have to come with a hero kick/jump just to make legal contact - with a high probability of fouling and giving you ball in hand. You’re getting a golden reward for a missed ball, not a punishment.

A missed ball should not leave your opponent in an even worse situation without the choice to pass IMO (if we’re playing in competition and not just for fun).
It is in every other game, why is 10b any different? As long as your opponent made a legal shot that should be all that's required. CS/CS is nothing but glorified biker-bar rules. What's next, calling kisses and rail touches? Good luck finding places/events that play cs/cs, last time i saw/heard of it was back on the Tony Robles Predator Tour.
 
Agree 100%. What really kills me is that the two most watched/highest paying cue games on the planet, snooker and Heyball, allow flukes/slop/shit/pick ur adjective and no one whines about the luck factor. Even in 1p, supposedly the gold standard of pure skill, you see games won/lost on crazy slop shots. Again, no one bitches about it. But 10b must be held to some higher degree of 'purity'. Missing a ball is not a foul and should not be penalized as such. Thankfully no pro 10b events plays cs/cs.
I’m not advocating that a missed ball be treated as a foul, but it should always be treated as a mistake - not as a flukey benefit by inadvertently snookering your opponent and forcing ball in hand.

Not saying that happens often in the pros, but in principle a miss should never be rewarded in a game of skill. Your opponent should get the option of taking the leave or passing back (that freedom of choice to your opponent is the punishment for the miss).

I’d take the same position for all games and restrict slop shots if I could. But honestly, the flukes do have entertainment value, and that drives the game forward in pop culture. However, in a measure of skill, there isn’t room for slop/flukes. That’s what championships are for, to see who’s the best and most skilled - not who can put up the most entertaining run out or who can level the playing field for those that need handicaps.
 
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