“Less Lucky” Version of 10 Ball?

[Bob Jewett]

... EDIT: Nevermind. The version that I referenced was the call safe rule in which the shooter can call a safe, pocket a ball, and the incoming player is forced to shoot. The current rule that the incoming player has the choice to pass it back if a shot is slopped in is what negates that rule.

The original WPA version of 10 ball, with call shot and "shoot again" had a "safety" call rule, but the rule had no effect. Calling safe did not cancel your opponent's right to force you to shoot again after making an uncalled ball. The whole point of calling a safe is that the other player has to shoot afterwards, regardless of what happens.

 

[Jaden]

I’m not advocating that a missed ball be treated as a foul, but it should always be treated as a mistake - not as a flukey benefit by inadvertently snookering your opponent and forcing ball in hand.

Not saying that happens often in the pros, but in principle a miss should never be rewarded in a game of skill. Your opponent should get the option of taking the leave or passing back (that freedom of choice to your opponent is the punishment for the miss).

I’d take the same position for all games and restrict slop shots if I could. But honestly, the flukes do have entertainment value, and that drives the game forward in pop culture. However, in a measure of skill, there isn’t room for slop/flukes. That’s what championships are for, to see who’s the best and most skilled - not who can put up the most entertaining run out or who can level the playing field for those that need handicaps.

Sometimes even a fluke isn't really a fluke, it's a calculation. I often choose shots that have a higher percentage of fluking safe if I miss or fluking a different ball in.

Hell in the video I posted of the 3 run outs recently, I purposely tried to make a 5 sitting in a pocket while attempting a bank combo on the 4-7. I made the bank combo and missed the 5. Strategically choosing shots to your advantage should be a part of the game even if it occasionally results in a fluke.

 

[dreamhouse]

I've talked about this alooooooot in the past, and yes its true that missing a ball sometimes can be a blessing rather than a curse because as you said in pool if a player misses a shot and then what happens after it is cruel for the opponent, in other words like the example you said, then if that opponent dont hit the ball, even tho I've made a mistake I still got ball in hand, which is a very very very bad design in my opinion.

There are many other examples by the way, which brings up my old posts where I've spoken about small pockets and how they don't favor the game and pretty much due to the ("WHAT HAPPENS AFTEER" a player missing a ball) Type of game.

Because sometimes with small pockets there are many misses and then all that is added to the game is extra-luck factor, I've spoken about this and ppl asked me "How is smaller pockets adds more luck to the game" and I kept explaining that after a missed shot the thing to watch for is "WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THE MISS" will the incoming player get hooked? will the opponent who missed a shot i.e. made a mistake, will he come back smelling like roses with either an easy shot or ball in hand? I mean all those factors are just a luck-added to the game which is already terrible for the game, not to mention the other big luck factor which is the break....

But to me the missing balls luck factor is very bad and horrible design, think about it... a guy made a mistake but we dont know what will happen after, sometimes the next player gets a shot, sometimes the guy who missed the ball will get easier shot right after which means you have all in the hands of luck essentially, we don't know what will happen next.

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Ok so you said the solution is to have a call shots for everything, and call safe, so then if a player missed a ball, the next player can tell the oppoent shoot again.

To me I think this isnt good and can be boring....as some said, but I think the solution to this is a rule we have in 7ball game, which I believe should be a rule for all around rotation games like 9ball, 10ball and all, and this rule is very simple and can be described in one line.

A player with new inning always gets ball in hand, unless a safe is called.

Thats the rule, fixes everything.

There's no more "Oh I missed but what will happen after, is my opponent gona get luck safe?" -- this doesn't exist anymore, you will never see your oppoenent making cruel horrible shot and big mistake and after hanging at the table to see his leave and if he hooks you, no he wont stay at the table to do this which annoys the hell out of me....

If he misses? Ball in hand, instantly.

If he calls safe, then you play where it lands.

You have 3 SAFE calls during one rack as a maximum, this prevents boring game-play and allows for somewhat of a safety battle if needed.

This rule will fix everything, you dont even have to call pockets, just dont miss.....this also make the games more offensive, I like it!

Not a bad suggestion, and I’ve actually played the “if you miss, your opponent gets ball in hand” rule as practice. Appreciate the write up.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I’ve been playing a lot of 10 ball lately because I enjoy calling shots. That takes a significant amount of luck out of the game (as an amateur player).
...

You might consider a different version of call shot that takes even more luck out of the game. If the ball does not enter the pocket cleanly it does not count unless the details of the kiss, or cushion contact, or whatever happened, have been called.

I've seen players shoot break shots at 14.1 and the ball misses badly but goes four cushions around the table to go in the called pocket. Should that count?

 

[garczar]

I’m not advocating that a missed ball be treated as a foul, but it should always be treated as a mistake - not as a flukey benefit by inadvertently snookering your opponent and forcing ball in hand.

Not saying that happens often in the pros, but in principle a miss should never be rewarded in a game of skill. Your opponent should get the option of taking the leave or passing back (that freedom of choice to your opponent is the punishment for the miss).

I’d take the same position for all games and restrict slop shots if I could. But honestly, the flukes do have entertainment value, and that drives the game forward in pop culture. However, in a measure of skill, there isn’t room for slop/flukes. That’s what championships are for, to see who’s the best and most skilled - not who can put up the most entertaining run out or who can level the playing field for those that need handicaps.

Don't play 10b is about all i can tell you here. CS/CS is a slow, neutered version of pool. When the WPA was putting 10b rules together they looked at the cs/cs option and luckily/thankfully they they chose not to use it. Pard, any game involving hitting/throwing/colliding round objects is going to have some luck factor. Trying to eradicate that part out of the game has never worked. You ever watch pro golf? Would you like to see luck legislated out of that game? Its part of it, just like pool.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Another way to look at "slop counts" rules is that they emphasize a separate skill: the ability to persevere in the face of unfair adversity. The development of spine. I think that's an important part of playing well.

 

[dreamhouse]

You might consider a different version of call shot that takes even more luck out of the game. If the ball does not enter the pocket cleanly it does not count unless the details of the kiss, or cushion contact, or whatever happened, have been called.

I've seen players shoot break shots at 14.1 and the ball misses badly but goes four cushions around the table to go in the called pocket. Should that count?

Theoretically, it shouldn’t count. However, as a human, I have a limited amount of bandwidth to dedicate to communicating where and how the object ball will be pocketed before every shot, so I’ll settle for simply calling the pocket and disregard the route that gets it there That’s the amount of “fluke” I’m comfortable with accepting.

 

[garczar]

You might consider a different version of call shot that takes even more luck out of the game. If the ball does not enter the pocket cleanly it does not count unless the details of the kiss, or cushion contact, or whatever happened, have been called.

I've seen players shoot break shots at 14.1 and the ball misses badly but goes four cushions around the table to go in the called pocket. Should that count?

AKA biker-bar chickenshit rules. I agree here. Luck is just part of the game. Trying to remove the two-way shot is just nuts imo, playing a possible leave in case you miss is just smart playing.

 

[nicksaint26]

I’m not advocating that a missed ball be treated as a foul, but it should always be treated as a mistake - not as a flukey benefit by inadvertently snookering your opponent and forcing ball in hand.

Not saying that happens often in the pros, but in principle a miss should never be rewarded in a game of skill. Your opponent should get the option of taking the leave or passing back (that freedom of choice to your opponent is the punishment for the miss).

I’d take the same position for all games and restrict slop shots if I could. But honestly, the flukes do have entertainment value, and that drives the game forward in pop culture. However, in a measure of skill, there isn’t room for slop/flukes. That’s what championships are for, to see who’s the best and most skilled - not who can put up the most entertaining run out or who can level the playing field for those that need handicaps.

Pool is more than just pocketing balls as intended. Two way shots/safes are calculations a good player will make before shooting. Why should they be penalized when they execute exactly what they were trying to do?

 

[garczar]

Pool is more than just pocketing balls as intended. Two way shots/safes are calculations a good player will make before shooting. Why should they be penalized when they execute exactly what they were trying to do?

Agree big time here. Also, i've seen people who grind over bad rolls and they rarely get better. They think that pool should be some sort of 'luckless' game. Folks, that is never going to be the case. As Bob said, dealing with rolls/adversity is key to getting better.

 

[nataddrho]

10 ball is clearing the jungle.
9 ball is surviving the jungle.

I’ve played and liked 9 ball “first shot always from either spot” rules. A bit better than BIH.

Also 5 or 7 ball 1p I find is faster enjoyable for everyone.

Colloquial 9 ball is a game with fundamental problems that has been discussed for 4 decades.

 

[nataddrho]

AKA biker-bar chickenshit rules. I agree here. Luck is just part of the game. Trying to remove the two-way shot is just nuts imo, playing a possible leave in case you miss is just smart playing.

Two way shots is a lesser players’ excuse. Call either the leave or the pocket. If you really have skill you should be able to control both the cue ball position and the object ball position precisely. Not just punch-and-pray.

 

[David in FL]

Have you ever noticed that better players tend to get more of the "lucky" rolls and poorer players get more of the "unlucky" rolls...?

 

[garczar]

Two way shots is a lesser players’ excuse. Call either the leave or the pocket. If you really have skill you should be able to control both the cue ball position and the object ball position precisely. Not just punch-and-pray.

are you delusional?? all professional 10b is played that way. you calling all those pros 'punch-n-prayers'??? You wanna play one, take your pick, for anything?? Two-way shots have been part of pool since it began.

 

[garczar]

Have you ever noticed that better players tend to get more of the "lucky" rolls and poorer players get more of the "unlucky" rolls...?

Yep. You rarely hear good players bitch about rolls, its always the hacks. Better players understand that rolls rarely determine the outcome of a match. A lot of lesser players have their game WAY over-clocked and just assume that luck is why they don't win. Used to love playing those folks for whatever they wanted to bet.

 

[nataddrho]

Have you ever noticed that better players tend to get more of the "lucky" rolls and poorer players get more of the "unlucky" rolls...?

My concern is that the game of 9 ball itself obfuscates for poorer players what good pool playing is. It is a confusing environment compared to progressive paths in other sports. I can’t think of a single other sport where a player is punished for their opponent’s mistake.

Anyway I am getting off topic. I am in favor cs/cs 10 ball rules.

 

[David in FL]

My concern is that the game of 9 ball itself obfuscates for poorer players what good pool playing is. It is a confusing environment compared to progressive paths in other sports. I can’t think of a single other sport where a player is punished for their opponent’s mistake.

Are you upset when you benefit from your opponent's mistake?

In the long run, cream tends to rise to the top...

 

[Taxi]

If you don't like "lucky safes", then there's a simple solution: Go back to the classic 2 foul / push outs allowed on any shot rule that used to be in place before Texas Express came along. Buddy Hall used to prefer that version of 9 ball because it gave the advantage to the shot maker, and it completely neutralizes any "lucky safes".

 

[garczar]

If you don't like "lucky safes", then there's a simple solution: Go back to the classic 2 foul / push outs allowed on any shot rule that used to be in place before Texas Express came along. Buddy Hall used to prefer that version of 9 ball because it gave the advantage to the shot maker, and it completely neutralizes any "lucky safes".

I loved pushout 9b but that game is never coming back.