1 Pocket - 1-Rail vs. 3-Rail Kicks

dont shoot either one. instead, come off the right side of the 5 ball and freeze him on the back side of the 7, he is screwed!
 
With all due respect, this is exactly why I would choose the 3 railer in this case, because the cue ball is on the side rail up 2 diamonds. It is much harder to estimate the 1 rail kick for such a small target once you leave the end rail where it is simple to divide the 1st rail by 2. Plus the margin for error is greater w/the 3 railer, especially for speed purposes.

The one railer if hit perfectly, has to be the perfect speed to avoid the scratch or coming up a hair short allowing your opponent to see the 12, 8 or 6 after the shot (assuming it's hit hard enough so they cannot cut a ball into their pocket). The 3 railer would be hit with running english anyway so there is no additional swerve affect on the cue ball regardless of where it is. That would only be important if you had to make a ball from that position using that inside stuff.

And, 1 Pocket Ghost, I'm in for that '1-and-1' if we ever meet - just some friendly woofin :).

Dave
Well I guess it's a matter of what you're most comfortable with. All things being equal I'd almost always always want to take the shot where I didn't have to shoot off the rail. With the 1 rail kick, the rail isn't an issue at all. The angle gives you the opportunity to hit the cueball just about anywhere, like it was in the middle of the table. I find it a pretty easy shot to judge the angle, or the contact point on the top rail. I'd shoot it to nudge the 7 ball off the side rail, leaving it behind the 7 and 10 not caring if I had to give up a ball in the process. Shooting the 3 rail kick, I'd be concerned about mis-cuing as well as curving the cueball on the way to the first rail making the accuracy more difficult! But that's just me, different strokes for different folks!
 
Last edited:
And, 1 Pocket Ghost, I'm in for that '1-and-1' if we ever meet - just some friendly woofin :).

Dave



Dave.....You got action on the 1-and-1...unless your last name is Matlock...:eek:...:o...:D

- Ghost

PS, What city are you in? - you can pm me if you want.
 
Dave.....You got action on the 1-and-1...unless your last name is Matlock...:eek:...:o...:D

- Ghost

PS, What city are you in? - you can pm me if you want.

No, not Matlock (too bad though :)). I'm in Colorado and am just now recovering from last week's shoulder surgery. It will be a few months, but if we meet, we can play. No woofin, sounds like fun.

Dave
 
With all due respect, this is exactly why I would choose the 3 railer in this case, because the cue ball is on the side rail up 2 diamonds. It is much harder to estimate the 1 rail kick for such a small target once you leave the end rail where it is simple to divide the 1st rail by 2.
You don't need to be on the end rail to make dividing by 2 simple. All you have to do is:

Imagine a line straight across the table through the middle of the CB, like the blue line below. To hit a spot on that line any distance from the CB, aim half the distance over on the headrail.

So to hit the opposite long rail directly across from the CB (at cueball B), aim for the center of the head rail (black line below). That track is pretty close to the one we want so we start with our cue (or line of sight) on that "reference" track (black line below from head rail to cueball B).

To adjust from the reference track to the target track, move the cue tip sideways along the blue line and the butt sideways along the head rail, always keeping the tip twice as far from its starting point (cueball B) as the butt is from its starting point (headrail center), until the tip is pointed at the target and the butt is pointed at the new aim point on the head rail, like the red line below.

1-rail kick.jpg

1-rail reference tracks and the adjustments from them are easy to visualize accurately, especially an obvious one like this (it's not much harder with the CB off the side rail). With practice this kick can easily be geometrically measured by sight (maybe cue-aided) to within an inch or two of the target. With practice, most reference tracks and adjustments can be visualized without the cue and many without moving from the shooter's position.

Of course you also have to hit the cue ball just right, as with any kick, but this shot needs only dead centerball so at least there's no guessing about where you want to hit it.

I'm not saying this is the correct 1 pocket shot, especially for somebody with more 3-rail skills than me. I'm just showing how accurate it can be.

The 3 railer would be hit with running english anyway so there is no additional swerve affect on the cue ball regardless of where it is.
The problem with swerve is that it's accentuated by hitting down on the rail-frozen CB.

I see this tradeoff, heavily influenced by the player's skills:

1. Accuracy (aim/speed) - 1-rail has edge unless very good 3-rail skill
2. Margin for error - 3-rail has better approach angle, but longer track, more traffic

pj
chgo
 
Last edited:
You don't need to be on the end rail to make dividing by 2 simple. All you have to do is:

Imagine a line straight across the table through the middle of the CB, like the blue line below. To hit a spot on that line any distance from the CB, aim half the distance over on the headrail.

So to hit the opposite long rail directly across from the CB (at cueball B), aim for the center of the head rail (black line below). That track is pretty close to the one we want so we start with our cue (or line of sight) on that "reference" track (black line below from head rail to cueball B).

To adjust from the reference track to the target track, move the cue tip sideways along the blue line and the butt sideways along the head rail, always keeping the tip twice as far from its starting point (cueball B) as the butt is from its starting point (headrail center), until the cue is pointed at the target, like the red line below. The new aim point on the head rail is where the butt points.

View attachment 154386

1-rail reference tracks and the adjustments from them are easy to visualize accurately, especially an obvious one like this. With practice this kick can easily be geometrically measured by sight (maybe cue-aided) to within an inch or two of the target. Of course you also have to hit the cue ball just right, as with any kick, but this shot needs only dead centerball so at least there's no guessing.

I'm not saying this is the correct 1 pocket shot, especially for somebody with more 3-rail skills than me. I'm just showing how accurate it can be.


The problem with swerve is that it's accentuated by hitting down on the rail-frozen CB.

I see this tradeoff, heavily influenced by the player's skills:

1. Accuracy (aim/speed) - 1-rail has edge unless very good 3-rail skill
2. Margin for error - 3-rail has better approach angle, but longer track, more traffic

pj
chgo

This was a really well done post, Patrick. Thanks for taking the time to illustrate and explain it, I'm sending you rep. I am familiar with what you showed, just making a point.

I do not believe there a need to hit downward on the cue ball to create extra swerve, just maybe 1 1/2 tips of right w/level cue. It's ok to hit the top half of the ball.

Again, thanks for taling the time to post what you did.

Dave
 
Last edited:
Just to see how I'd actually do with this shot, I set it up on my 9' Diamond and shot it both ways 10 times each.

With the 3 rail kick, I kicked the 7 ball in 3 times, scratched once off the rail then the ball, hit it good only one time and came up safe without hitting any ball but not selling out except for the ball I would owe and essentially sold out the other 5 times. The 3 times I kicked it in, I left a pretty easy return each time.

On the One rail kick version, I scratched off the 7 ball twice and over shot it once where the cueball went around the 7 and left a shot straight in on the 7, but I ended up safe every other time. A few of the times I hit no ball, giving up a ball in the process, but no shot either essentially turning the break around.

For me, the 3 rail kick was even much more difficult than I'd originally thought, mostly because of shooting it off the rail. I even miscued one time but didn't count that in the test as it was probably because I didn't chalk up well enough for such a shot, but it definitely reinforced my belief that the one rail shot was easier to control. It's a tough situation any way you look at it, and I still think that thinning off the 5 ball would probably be my first choice, unless it looked differently on the table than it does in the pictures. but I'm sure that _for me_ the one rail option is by far the best of the kicking options.

I'd suggest you try that 3 rail kick on a real table several times yourself! With that cueball frozen on the rail, it's a *****! Several people said they thought that it was easier to control the speed going 3 rails. Maybe if the the ball wasn't frozen on the rail, but for my money, I wouldn't shoot that shot with a gun to my head, especially after trying it several times.
 
I prefer the one rail kick for the same reason PJ stated...easy to visualize but I do agree that this way will scratch a few more times (I would estimate the chance of scratching in off the 7 one rail is 10% vs say 5% with the 3R method.

Just food for thought. The 1R method will play about the same on older vs newer cloth. The 3R method the angles will open up differently on fresh cloth. I realize this is somewhat neutralized via 3R but I would only do it on a table I knew or had at least been well warmed up on. As mentioned before 1R is easier to cue because you can "see" more cueball because of the angle of attack vs. the rail.

I still believe the pace is easier to gage 1R (fewer variables at play).

Nick

You don't need to be on the end rail to make dividing by 2 simple. All you have to do is:

Imagine a line straight across the table through the middle of the CB, like the blue line below. To hit a spot on that line any distance from the CB, aim half the distance over on the headrail.

So to hit the opposite long rail directly across from the CB (at cueball B), aim for the center of the head rail (black line below). That track is pretty close to the one we want so we start with our cue (or line of sight) on that "reference" track (black line below from head rail to cueball B).

To adjust from the reference track to the target track, move the cue tip sideways along the blue line and the butt sideways along the head rail, always keeping the tip twice as far from its starting point (cueball B) as the butt is from its starting point (headrail center), until the cue is pointed at the target, like the red line below. The new aim point on the head rail is where the butt points.

View attachment 154386

1-rail reference tracks and the adjustments from them are easy to visualize accurately, especially an obvious one like this (it's not much harder with the CB off the side rail). With practice this kick can easily be geometrically measured by sight (maybe cue-aided) to within an inch or two of the target. Of course you also have to hit the cue ball just right, as with any kick, but this shot needs only dead centerball so at least there's no guessing.

I'm not saying this is the correct 1 pocket shot, especially for somebody with more 3-rail skills than me. I'm just showing how accurate it can be.


The problem with swerve is that it's accentuated by hitting down on the rail-frozen CB.

I see this tradeoff, heavily influenced by the player's skills:

1. Accuracy (aim/speed) - 1-rail has edge unless very good 3-rail skill
2. Margin for error - 3-rail has better approach angle, but longer track, more traffic

pj
chgo
 
Exactly and your odds of shooting a turd and scratching in the pocket are much greater when shooting the 1 rail kick as opposed to the 3 railer

When it boils down to it the 3 rail is better than the 1 rail....its safer and no harder to shoot.

-Grey Ghost

id love to play you for money
 
Here's a shot that no one has mentioned...

I like banking the 2 ball into the 12 with medium speed, and going two to three rails to hide the 7 ball with the stack.

I like to move balls toward my hole without selling out, whenever I possibly can.
 
I think somewhere in the literature it's been said that the more rails you go the easier it is to predict the speed, or at least that the cue ball will come out the same place. (I wish Ron participated here, because I believe he's addressed this a few times on RSB.) Maybe Bob will toss in his 2 cents.
(SNIP)
No down side. It's worth the foul.

Lou Figueroa

On this particular shot, the first three rails are running with the angle of the shot (CB hits the rail and goes to the right), but the 4th reverses (hits the rail and goes left). So the running english the CB picks up on the first three rails turns into reverse english on the 4th rail and slows down the CB. So you've got a fairly wide range of speeds that kill the CB behind the 7. That's one of several reasons the 3-railer seems better to me.

Cory
 
First of all I don't like either kick shot here! This is just not the right option considering the layout! There is a time to kick at balls (when you have nothing else) but this isn't it. That being said, it is easier to control a one rail kick than a three railer. You're really guessing on a three railer. I do like the angle the three railer comes in on, but there is a lot that can go wrong with this shot. A lot! At least with the one railer you can just aim to go around the seven and lay the cue ball on or near the end rail. Less that can go wrong here, except scratching off the seven if you hit it bad. Once again I don't encourage using shots like this if you have other options. You're ducking for disaster here!

P.S. One other thing no one has mentioned is that you can cue on the cue ball better going one rail than three. It is on the rail after all. You can hit more of the ball shooting a one railer. With a three railer, you are shooting off the cushion. But what do I know anyway? :idea2:
 
Last edited:
Just to see how I'd actually do with this shot, I set it up on my 9' Diamond and shot it both ways 10 times each.

With the 3 rail kick, I kicked the 7 ball in 3 times, scratched once off the rail then the ball, hit it good only one time and came up safe without hitting any ball but not selling out except for the ball I would owe and essentially sold out the other 5 times. The 3 times I kicked it in, I left a pretty easy return each time.

On the One rail kick version, I scratched off the 7 ball twice and over shot it once where the cueball went around the 7 and left a shot straight in on the 7, but I ended up safe every other time. A few of the times I hit no ball, giving up a ball in the process, but no shot either essentially turning the break around.

For me, the 3 rail kick was even much more difficult than I'd originally thought, mostly because of shooting it off the rail. I even miscued one time but didn't count that in the test as it was probably because I didn't chalk up well enough for such a shot, but it definitely reinforced my belief that the one rail shot was easier to control. It's a tough situation any way you look at it, and I still think that thinning off the 5 ball would probably be my first choice, unless it looked differently on the table than it does in the pictures. but I'm sure that _for me_ the one rail option is by far the best of the kicking options.

I'd suggest you try that 3 rail kick on a real table several times yourself! With that cueball frozen on the rail, it's a *****! Several people said they thought that it was easier to control the speed going 3 rails. Maybe if the the ball wasn't frozen on the rail, but for my money, I wouldn't shoot that shot with a gun to my head, especially after trying it several times.

Sounds like you were shooting a different shot, Sherm. This is pool, right?!Hahaha

You are shooting the shot lots harder than I imagined we were talking about...if you made the sukker 3r and went around it 2x on the 1r!

I dont find too much swerve on the 3r shot at lag speed...and I'd like to think I could do either but have done my share of selling out from there too!

Pool shots are self-fulfilling prophecies sometimes....we shoot what we know/ feel
 
id love to play u 2

Yes, I'm sure you would. I see your location listed as Illinois, you see that I'm in Oklahoma...would you like to travel 800 miles to settle an internet vendetta over nothing on the pool table? Because I just don't care that much.

We could freeze up $500 and play best 2 out of 3 in a spelling bee, if you want. :rolleyes:
 
While I use the one rail kicking system that Pat illustrated so well, in this particular case I would use the 3 rail kick on this shot, expecting to get behind the 7 ball and hoping to barely hit the 7 hard enough to keep the cue ball behind the 7 ball, making it difficult for my opponent to knock balls away from my hole or to prevent him from having a cross table bank.

Overall and generally speaking, it seems easier to profit from multiple rail kicks than one rail kicks, except in special situations. (Even in other disciplines, other than one pocket). There seem to be more benefits to multiple rail kicking than one rail kicking as detailed by some of the other posters.

A good test to try is to simply set up kick shots and see if it is easier to make a good hit and to have favorable position on the object ball if you miss or favorable position on the cue ball if you make the object ball or miss making the object ball. After 30 minutes of "testing" you will see just how strong multiple rail kicking can be. On the surface it looks like 3 railers in general are more difficult to execute with good results but the convergence of the tracking lines on three railers, make the path of the cue ball more accurate and because you can use the rail to slow the cue ball down, you have a wider margin of error on speed.
 
Back
Top