14.1 And Tight Pockets?

Johnnyt

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
Help me out here to understand this logic. Everytime someone wants to see 14.1 played on a tight pocket table (less than 4 1/2") the 14.1 players say you can't play 14.1 on pockets that tight...we need to be able to cheat the pocket for postion. You don't need to cheat the pocket for position in rotation games? In 14.1 you almost always have more than 1 ball to get position on...sometimes 10 or more to shoot. In 9, 10, and 15-ball you have one ball to get position on. Even if its at the other end of the table and there is 7 or more balls to miss going for it.

In rotation fans love to see packs run. In 14.1 fans want to see 100+ runs. You will see very few 5-packs in rotation or 100 ball runs in 14.1 on the TAR table or one like it. That's the only difference I see between tight pockets in both games. Johnnyt
 
Bigger pockets make the game easier. Whatever the game. People who complain that pockets are too small need more practice. People who complain the pockets are too big need to up the bet. Simple really.

;)

-td
 
Johnnyt said:
Help me out here to understand this logic. Everytime someone wants to see 14.1 played on a tight pocket table (less than 4 1/2") the 14.1 players say you can't play 14.1 on pockets that tight...we need to be able to cheat the pocket for postion. You don't need to cheat the pocket for position in rotation games? In 14.1 you almost always have more than 1 ball to get position on...sometimes 10 or more to shoot. In 9, 10, and 15-ball you have one ball to get position on. Even if its at the other end of the table and there is 7 or more balls to miss going for it.

In rotation fans love to see packs run. In 14.1 fans want to see 100+ runs. You will see very few 5-packs in rotation or 100 ball runs in 14.1 on the TAR table or one like it. That's the only difference I see between tight pockets in both games. Johnnyt
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I totally agree and have been thinking about asking the same question for quiet some time. As far as the people who always are promoting tighter pockets why are they not good for Straight pool if their good for
the rotation games and Eight ball. It would only make sense.
For the people who are always saying that Straight pool is the only
game, why do the players seem to think they shouldn't play on tight pockets like the other games seem to be headed to. Not that I agree with
this trend, I think 4 1/4" pockets are fine, the amateurs will only see a pro player miss. They won't take in to account that the pro is playing on tighter pockets, that's why it's bad for the game. IMO
 
tight pockets are not for me
i feel like i would if someone wanted to change the size of the golf hole

fortunately golf keeps the same dimensions

i prefer the size of the old gold crowns ,anniversary,and centenniel

4.75 is fine with me

i also don't think most of the people who advocate tight pockets play
any better than average players used to

pool is not snooker
 
One other thing about 14.1 is "you have to map your balls and the pockets they will go in after the break". I agree you need to have a good idea where they are going to be shot, but to me the last two or three balls are more important. We use to play a game of 14.1 that after the break you put your complete run of the rack down on paper. Just about everyone in my room that played this game were 100 ball runners. I had run a lot of 80's and a few 90's but not any 100's at that time. You would be suprised how few perfect racks were run by any of us.

I know it sounds like I don't like 14.1. But I really love the game and only stopped playing it because no one wanted to gamble on it anymore...it became all 9-ball for the action. I still say you need more focus to be good at 14.1 than any of the other games. Johnnyt
 
deanoc said:
tight pockets are not for me
i feel like i would if someone wanted to change the size of the golf hole

fortunately golf keeps the same dimensions

i prefer the size of the old gold crowns ,anniversary,and centenniel

4.75 is fine with me

i also don't think most of the people who advocate tight pockets play
any better than average players used to

pool is not snooker
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You are right. Tight pockets are not for everyone. Thats why good poolrooms have tables with standard size pockets that came with the table and tables that have been made tighter. Back in the day the ratio in good players rooms was 2 out of 10 would be tight tables. Johnnyt
 
The tolerance for being "out of position" is very small in 14.1

OTOH in rotation, you mainly have to be on the right side. I saw a guy run ten racks and it was sloppy, the only saving grace being he could pocket and he was always on the right side of the ball. It didn't matter that he was far from the OB or that he was too far off his line, as long as he had an angle.

Rotation is all about pocketing and tight pockets determine who shoots the straightest. 14.1 is about table management and massaging your balls :):):),,ahem, and the VERY GOOD players all use the pockets because sometimes it's a matter of nuanced moves that are fractions of an inch..
 
LAlouie said:
The tolerance for being "out of position" is very small in 14.1

OTOH in rotation, you mainly have to be on the right side. I saw a guy run ten racks and it was sloppy, the only saving grace being he could pocket and he was always on the right side of the ball. It didn't matter that he was far from the OB or that he was too far off his line, as long as he had an angle.

Rotation is all about pocketing and tight pockets determine who shoots the straightest. 14.1 is about table management and massaging your balls :):):),,ahem, and the VERY GOOD players all use the pockets because sometimes it's a matter of nuanced moves that are fractions of an inch..
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"The tolerance for being "out of position" is very small in 14.1"
Sorry to disagree. You might have 10 or more balls to shoot other than the misissed position ball in 14.1. In rotation when you pocket the two you HAVE to shoot the three next...no matter where it is. Most better than average players will run more racks after the break in 14.1 than he/she will in 10-ball rotation. The hardest game is 15-ball rotation. Run a rack of that on any size pockets and you're really doing something. Johnnyt
 
OK Johnnyt, here's the reason. In rotation based games like 9 and 10 Ball you are most often using spin off the cushions to play position.

On the other hand, in straight pool you very often play position without going to a rail at all. Rather, you are using only cut angle to play position. It is often your only tool to get shape. And because shape must often be very exact, you must have pockets large enough to allow you to sufficiently manipulate the cut angle for both direction and speed of the cue ball.

Let's face it, most shots in straight pool are not going to be missed because the pockets are looser or tighter like in 9/10 Ball. But straight pool properly played at the expert level requires precise manipulation of cut angles. You need pockets large enough to allow you to do this. It is this skill that really separates the best players from the good ones, probably more than ball pocketing ability (they're all good at that). Keep in mind that when cheating the pocket, sometimes extremely, you are in a sense playing to a tighter pocket. So I might wind up catching too much of the point and missing the shot that John Schmidt would not miss. I'd probably come closer to beating John Schmidt on a table with 4" pockets than one with 5" because it reduces the opportunities to play to edges of the pockets with precision. He will have a harder time getting shape to run balls since we are forced to just play to center pocket more often.

And for the record, I couldn't even tie Schmidt if we played straight pool on a billiard table. Just making a point.:grin-square:
 
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DogsPlayingPool said:
Cute answer, but that's not the reason. Ask John Schmidt and he will tell you the same thing I just said before your post.
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Blah...

Lighten up. ;) I'm one of the old guys , been playing straight pool since I was 9. :)

But seriously, IMO, your "answer" is nonsensical. . :grin-square:
 
RRfireblade said:
Blah...

Lighten up. ;) I'm one of the old guys , been playing straight pool since I was 9. :)

But seriously, IMO, your "answer" is nonsensical. . :grin-square:
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No problem, I grew up on straight pool too. Didn't mean to come off as too intense but Johnnyt and others asked so I was trying to give them a serious answer. It's OK with me that you think I'm nonsensical. I'm married so I get that all the time. :wink:
 
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I played 14.1 for hours just about everyday for about 30 years and got to be pretty good at it. In NY most good rooms had a few well kept tight pocket tables that the top players in the room played on most. The same "A" players I could hold my own with on the standard size pocket tables I could not touch on the tight tables. 14.1 is a great game and IMO it should be the game everyone starts with. That said, 14.1 is the easier game out of most if not all of the major pool games. Most 14.1 players don't gamble, so the only way to for them to have a pecking order is by how many they can run. The guy that has a high run for the week of 111 on standard 9" table will have a high run of maybe 60 on a tight pocket table...and they don't like the sound of that. Johnnyt
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
No problem, I grew up on straight pool too. Didn't mean to come off as too intense but Johnnyt and others asked so I was trying to give them a serious answer. It's OK with me that you think it's nonsensical. I'm married so I get that all the time. :wink:
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No it was a serious answer agreed, but like I said IMO , its not "the" reason. I'll give you my serious response. ;)

90% of your shots in the game are 2' from the pocket, unless your playing on 3" pockets you can cheat the pocket more than enough to move the ball a ton before having to go to a rail. The simple truth is obviously 14.1 is a runout game and its just plain easier to run out on bigger pockets. The ONLY issue that a tighter than typical pocket might complicate things IMO (again ;) ) is the(last ball) break shot. Nobody wants to admit they prefer playing on an easier table.....thats the other answer. :o
 
RRfireblade said:
No it was a serious answer agreed, but like I said IMO , its not "the" reason. I'll give you my serious response. ;)

90% of your shots in the game are 2' from the pocket, unless your playing on 3" pockets you can cheat the pocket more than enough to move the ball a ton before having to go to a rail. The simple truth is obviously 14.1 is a runout game and its just plain easier to run out on bigger pockets. The ONLY issue that a tighter than typical pocket might complicate things IMO (again ;) ) is the(last ball) break shot. Nobody wants to admit they prefer playing on an easier table.....thats the other answer. :o
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First off, no argument that it's tougher to run 100 balls on a tighter table. I'd say that's true for any game. It' not hard to admit I'd rather run 100 balls and it would be easier to do so on a looser table. But why is the ego thing of not wanting to admit one would rather play on an easier table is limited to straight pool players? Why wouldn't 9 Ball or 8 Ball players be coming up with "excuses" to explain why those games requires bigger pockets?

My Gold Crown has 4 1/4" pockets so obviously it's not to stroke my ego. But I didn't have it set up strictly for straight pool and I don't think it is the best set up for 14.1. It's too tight in my honest opinion. Not saying looser is tougher, just that it is more proper and appropriate for the range of skills required to play straight pool expertly.
 
For my home table I recently bought a diamond set up for 4 1/4" pockets. That would be fine for me but I am going to have it set up for 4 1/2" corners because it is a home table and other people have to play on it. There is no way I'd go bigger than 4 1/2" nor would I go tighter than 4 1/4". Those are the limits for any recreational table IMO no matter what the game.

4 1/8" corners might be good and challenging for professionals but that is not the best for most.
 
johnnyt,,,you have a simplistic view of 14.1
Also, you do realize we are talking about two different things don't you. :) I am talking about the need to have more specific cb location on a shot (ie the specific skillset needed for cb control), and you are talking about shooting at any ball (ie basic 14.1 rules).

Go ask a top pro. Let him tell you why he needs that play.
 
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Tight pockets are great for practice and tuning up your game, but have no place in tournament play. Maybe if you run into me on the road somewhere I will explain, but I will not argue the point on this forum.
 
I dunno who's saying that johnny... but really it sounds like one guy's opinion and not 'common knowlege' or the 'general concensus'.

Something I hear all the time is that many serious 9b/10b players favor tight pockets.

That's probably because those games favor pure shotmaking ability. They are not thinking games. They are pure execution.

So any guy who is in love with his own shotmaking skill... he chooses rotation games that show off that skill. How's he gonna do Corey's super monkey draw shot, playing 14.1? There's no opportunity to show that off. So the shotmaker plays rotation games. And he says stuff like "yeah I can't stand regulation pockets. Makes the game too easy. I fall asleep shooting into those buckets." Which, to be blunt, is horseshít macho posturing. Just my opinion, no offense intended :)

Guys who love the other aspects of pool, like careful planning or tactical decisions, don't feel the need to turn it into a straight shooting contest by shrinking the pockets. So it's not that 14.1 players insist on 'big' pockets. They just don't feel a burning urge to play their game on nonstandard equipment.
 
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