15 ball rotation, call shot, 15 ball is the game-ball

Johnnyt

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
I'd like to hear reasons why 15-ball rotation, call shot, 15 ball is the game ball. 15 spots if made on break or uncalled. Myself, I can't see a reason this won't work in tournaments in races to 5-8. Just don't let any Pinoy's play in the 15-ball events for a year;). Johnnyt
 
TX Poolnut said:
Full rack, 15 ball rotation should be the pro's game. Either that or 14.1.
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Color me confused...but isn't the difference here huge?

I don't (haven't) played much straight pool, but I have a little.
It seems like shooting 15 in order with a table full of balls at the start is a whole other animal......and by a lot.

What am I missing?
 
We play 15 ball rotation using ten ball rules (call shot). However you get one point per ball and we play to 50 points. The most difficult part of each rack is the first five or so balls. At some point one person runs the rest of the table. The game requires more strategy than you might think. My friend and I have about the same ability on any given day and yet the scores can be lopsided when playing 15 ball depending on strategy.

In ten ball he wins one set I win the next (alternating breaks). In 15 Ball he or I might win with a score of 30 – 50. Personally I like 15 ball better then most other games. It is more challenging and requires more creativity than 10 Ball. I think pro tournaments would be more interesting using a similar format. Winning one point for the 15 ball takes away some of the pay off for good play early in the game.

I have always played 14.1 but it is not as much “fun” as 15 ball. It seems that when playing 14.1 it requires much sustained concentration and it can get nerve racking when you know you can’t miss position or the other guy runs the rack. I like 14.1 for practice where there is less pressure.
 
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Johnnyt said:
I'd like to hear reasons why 15-ball rotation, call shot, 15 ball is the game ball. 15 spots if made on break or uncalled. Myself, I can't see a reason this won't work in tournaments in races to 5-8. Just don't let any Pinoy's play in the 15-ball events for a year;). Johnnyt
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Johnny:

I'm not sure if you saw Fatboy's thread on this very topic:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=232375

Not sure if you're bringing this up "for the sake of pool" (e.g. what can we do to breath life back into the sport), but consensus seems to be that rotation pool -- all forms, regardless of the number of balls -- has basically run its course. It's just not cutting it anymore. Changing the number of balls won't do it.

And while full-rack Rotation is indeed more difficult, it's not the way the Pinoys play. (They play a form of Chicago rotation, which uses the numbers of the balls for points, added to their tally. The face value of the pocketed ball is added to your total. First to reach a total of "61" points wins that rack, irrespective of whether the 15-ball is pocketed or not. That is to say, there is no fixed "money ball" in Pinoy rotation. Your money ball is the one whose face value gets you over the "61" total points hump.)

I've always said that at a pro-level, 14.1 straight pool is a better indicator of who's playing better that day. It brings out the most-consistently good player out of the mire of the other players. In 14.1 you have to remain focused on every single shot, for the duration of the match. In a 150 point match, you can run 149 and LOSE. And it's happened many times before.

However, is it an exciting game to watch? Probably not, unless you're a pool fanatic like us. Watching someone merely run balls (without the knowledge of what to look for -- i.e. the pattern the player is using to get on the break ball for the next rack) is BORING to the average viewer.

In Fatboy's thread, the topic of Bank pool came up. Short-rack banks (also sometimes called "9-ball banks") to be specific. And it's an interesting concept. Personally, I do know that when I let my hair down in a bar and go to the barbox with casual pool-playing friends, it's the bank shots that get all the "oooos" and "ahhhhs". Especially if you fire them in (as experienced bankers do). The "once in a blue moon" player readily identifies with bank shots. They think they're very pretty and exciting. And for that purpose, I have to agree.

So, short-rack banks for pros? I think that would certainly level the playing field, regardless of nationality (that is, unless, you're from Chicago or Kentucky :) ). And, if televised, it would have the added value of attracting the average Joe/Jane Doe.

Thoughts?
-Sean
 
Thunderball said:
Color me confused...but isn't the difference here huge?

I don't (haven't) played much straight pool, but I have a little.
It seems like shooting 15 in order with a table full of balls at the start is a whole other animal......and by a lot.

What am I missing?
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Yes. Two completely different animals. Both are very hard. Both are worthy of consideration when searching for the "pro's game", in my opinion. One or the other.
 
I would like to know why the games played should always be changed because the pros acheive high play like running multiple racks, consistant balls on the break, etc. Do people just want to watch a game that nobody runs out on most of the time. If that is the case we might as well just watch 3's & 4's leaguers play. When is enough enough & people enjoy the game for what it is, I know I'd much rather watch a nice run then someone make 4 or 5balls & set down. :rolleyes:
 
Johnnyt said:
I'd like to hear reasons why 15-ball rotation, call shot, 15 ball is the game ball. 15 spots if made on break or uncalled. Myself, I can't see a reason this won't work in tournaments in races to 5-8. Just don't let any Pinoy's play in the 15-ball events for a year;). Johnnyt
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Certainly they play a lot of rotation but keep in mind that the game as played in the Philippines is a points based game, not the money ball game you are proposing.

Thunderball said:
Color me confused...but isn't the difference here huge?

I don't (haven't) played much straight pool, but I have a little.
It seems like shooting 15 in order with a table full of balls at the start is a whole other animal......and by a lot.

What am I missing?
Click to expand...

What you are missing is that straight pool is not a one rack game. :grin-square:
 
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DogsPlayingPool said:
Certainly they play a lot of rotation but keep in mind that the game as played in the Philippines is a points based game, not the money ball game you are proposing.



What you are missing is that straight pool is not a one rack game. :grin-square:
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Rotation can be played many ways. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
Rotation can be played many ways. Johnnyt
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Yeah. I believe they refer to the points based game as 15 Ball or Rotation in the PI's but I prefer to think of the points game as Rotation and the money ball game as 15 Ball just to differentiate the two. Just semantics, I guess.
 
I have sometimes wondered about the logic of having a game ball at all. I mean, say we are playing a race to 8 in 10 ball. Theoretically, I could make only 8 shots and win the set - if all of those shots happen to be the 10 ball.

Why couldn't any rotation based game be played on a points basis, with each ball pocketed scoring 1 point? That might be an interesting format and it would reward the player that pockets the most balls, which seems reasonable to me.

What do y'all think?
 
I grew up playing the game of 15 ball rotation...it's the KING of pool games.
 
Majic said:
I grew up playing the game of 15 ball rotation....
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So did I, in my garage as a teen. We played it the way the Pinoy's play it, whatever number on the ball equals the amount of points you get for sinking that ball. Whoever gets 61 first won the rack and broke the next game.

It's not a bad game to play. I'd much rather see the pros do anything EXCEPT 9 or 10-ball where they are often running rack after rack. Boring!!!

I like the short-rack bank idea, Sean :thumbup:!!!

Maniac
 
jalapus logan said:
I have sometimes wondered about the logic of having a game ball at all. I mean, say we are playing a race to 8 in 10 ball. Theoretically, I could make only 8 shots and win the set - if all of those shots happen to be the 10 ball.

Why couldn't any rotation based game be played on a points basis, with each ball pocketed scoring 1 point? That might be an interesting format and it would reward the player that pockets the most balls, which seems reasonable to me.

What do y'all think?
Click to expand...

LOL... Isn't that the APA system that everyone complains about that isn't *real* 9 ball?

However, I agree with you, and I do like APA 9 ball.
 
I learned to play Rotation (61 point version) from an old Chicago player. Here's some of the rules we played with:

* When a player fails to contact the lowest numbered ball, the incoming player can play the shot as is or elect to have his opponent shoot again. (push-out on every ball)

* Table and pocket scratches are played in the kitchen shooting forward. If the next lowest ball is in the kitchen it can be spotted.

* Combo's and Caroms count if they're called, spotted otherwise.

I really enjoy the game. There's a lot of cat and mouse at the start with back and forth safeties and ball grooming. Usually the right opportunity comes along and someone runs out.

Playing this game is also the only time I used the ball rack built into a Gold Crown, one player puts his pots on top and the other bottom.
 
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