$2,000.00 Reward For stolen Cognoscenti Cue.. Please Read!

I could start a registry for cues. Cue owners could enter it into the registy and it would be issued a VIN number and ID card with the owner history entered into a database. Then if it gets stolen the owner could contact the registry and report it.

In turn if you are trying to buy the cue you could enter the VIN on the registry website and see its info.

The registry would also be good because if someone is after a particular cue and would like to contact the owner. Also a good place to track and showcase your collection. We could link this up to the blue book of cues so the cue value accompanies the cue info.

I could do this pretty easily, do you guys think people would be interested in this. It would only cost to register the cue and issue the card not to look a cue up or browse.

It might take awile to build the database but after 5 or so years if people did this the database would be huge.
 
Bishop said:
I could start a registry for cues. .

Bish,
That would be a tremendous improvement over the current system (oh wait...there is no system).

It sounds like such a system would be a natural for the cuemaker's association. Is there any "association" of used cue dealer's? If so, perhaps they should also be doing something like this.

What a tremendous ethical boost something like that would be for the used cue fans.
 
I still like the idea of an RFID chip, just like a pet would have.

Read only and built into the cue's construction.
 
cue registry

A good idea, but you can't realistically do this until all cues made have guaranteed unique VIN-type numbers imprinted onto them when they're made. Without this, you run the risk of fraudulent registrations.
 
I agree with that. There would have to be a process of registering the cue along with proper ID for verification and pictures of the cue. Or send the cue in to verify ownership. Something along those lines.
 
......don't forget. somebody has to pay for it or the service....but who?

Why does it need to be more unique than saying:

this cue was made on this date, it is this model made to these specs and maybe, who it was originally commisioned by.

??

I'm thinking it would be awful difficult and pretty pointless to try and forge such info, as it could be verifed by the guy why made the cue....traceability being the key part.
 
Mr. Wilson said:
I still like the idea of an RFID chip, just like a pet would have.

Read only and built into the cue's construction.


I think that Arnot came up with this idea about a decade ago and may have actually put a few chips in his cues (or was about to). The problem arose with 'readers'. You would need chip readers all over the country (world) and the price at the time was prohibitive.
Doug
( if I'm not right, I'm 'close' )


Edited to add: I didn't see Arnot's name in this thread, so I may be mistaken: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.billiard/msg/abbb79185512b9a1?hl=en&



.
 
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Mr. Wilson said:
......don't forget. somebody has to pay for it or the service....but who?

Why does it need to be more unique than saying:

this cue was made on this date, it is this model made to these specs and maybe, who it was originally commisioned by.

??

I'm thinking it would be awful difficult and pretty pointless to try and forge such info, as it could be verifed by the guy why made the cue....traceability being the key part.
I'll address that in the thread I made so I don't hijack this one.
 
Wow, Williebetmore in a moral controversy...cool...

Welcome to the mud, Don. Don't forget to wash up.

I talked to Rick about three weeks ago about his Dad's passing and about some pool (His team was in our team's division--Valley---we came out on top even though his team is loaded with young guns...he he he). Anyway, I was going to go into the details of this crime, but, because of Rick's personal problems, I thought it better to wait. But I quickly asked Rick as he was leaving, "Has the Cog deal been settled yet?" His response, "No, not yet." I said, "Well, I don't want to bug you now, but when it is, I want all the details." He smiled and said, "OK," and left the bar.

When he tells me and I get his permission, I'll relate what he says, OK?

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
Wow, Williebetmore in a moral controversy...cool...

Welcome to the mud, Don. Don't forget to wash up.

I talked to Rick about three weeks ago about his Dad's passing and about some pool (His team was in our team's division--Valley---we came out on top even though his team is loaded with young guns...he he he). Anyway, I was going to go into the details of this crime, but, because of Rick's personal problems, I thought it better to wait. But I quickly asked Rick as he was leaving, "Has the Cog deal been settled yet?" His response, "No, not yet." I said, "Well, I don't want to bug you now, but when it is, I want all the details." He smiled and said, "OK," and left the bar.

When he tells me and I get his permission, I'll relate what he says, OK?

Jeff Livingston

JL,
Actually not much of a controversy. The only question is how much are we willing to bend morality or rationalize our actions to get what we desperately want - I think we ALL are guilty to some degree at some times in our lives. No holier than thou crap from me - I have done a fair number of things of which I am not proud; I just call it like I see it in this particular case. It doesn't hurt to try to improve ourselves (myself included). I think mine will be a VERY unpopular, minority opinion in a forum like this.

We've already heard the usual arguments for such buying. The "everybody does it, so it's okay", the "it would be too hard to police", the "he didn't know it was stolen", the "one dollar toaster at the garage sale could be stolen", and the ever-popular "he's a really nice guy and would never buy a stolen cue" arguments. I'm not really swayed by any of them so far (though they all have a certain element of truth). Are we really not just fooling ourselves into thinking everything is fine, and we should just continue to trade/sell/buy these pretty cues indiscriminately? I have heard from several cue traders that are somewhat indignant; professing honesty - I have not yet heard from a single one about what steps they take to make sure they are not dealing in stolen goods. If they don't know something is stolen, I read that as they don't care (at least not enough to prevent it; and it IS preventable).

If you do see him, ask him about the police - have they caught the crook? If not, why not?
 
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Rationalization is the easy part; the "right thing" is the hard part

Willie,

You hit it right on the head here. Rick did the right thing by contacting the buyer and giving her cue back. To make it sound like Rick has as big a part in the wrong doing by not running a stolen cue check prior to buying the cue is ludicrous and simply wrong.

I bought a gun at a pawn shop awhile back. It looked like one hell of a buy, so I bought it. The pawn shop has been in Phoenix for forty years. I took the gun to my gunsmith, as I got an offer to buy it almost immediately, so I wanted to make sure everything checked out before I sold it to a friend. When I got to the gunsmith's place, he saw the gun and immediately recognized it as a stolen gun that had been owned by one of his customers. He called his customer and he met us in the shop with the police in tow.

The guy tried to make me feel like a criminal even though I produced a receipt from the pawn shop. He wanted me to give him the gun back even though I had spent several hundred dollars to buy it. When all was said and done, there was no record of the stolen gun because the guy had done so many modifications to it that when it was taken, the guy sent in the wrong serial number, which was from one of the modified parts, for the police report. The cop said it was my gun, as far as he was concerned and left the premises. My gunsmith looked the guy in the face and said that if he didn't pay me for the gun, he would find out who he'd had it insured with and make sure they knew he had gotten it back so they could recoup their loss after paying him off. I at least got my money back, but it took a threat. Was I wrong for buying a stolen gun from a reputable pawn shop with correct papers even though it turned out stolen?

Now I know you're thinking that this was a unique situation and that I should have suspected theft due to the low price. Well, I got a Colt .45 from the same pawn shop, and now I was a little concerned because, once again, the price was "too good to be true". I was getting a $2,500 gun for $500. They had the guy they bought the gun from call me and he told me the reason he sold it so cheap was that the guy's grandfather had passed it down to him and he HATED GUNS (he almost shouted this fact at me). He sold the gun to the pawn shop for $50 just to get it out of his house. Fortunately, I have enough history with the pawn shop that they took the gun out of inventory until I had talked to the previous owner, or I guarantee that someone would have bought it before I would have had the chance.

I have been fortunate to have had some very good deals on cues throughout the years. Some were because of divorce, or death in the family, or simply that the person was getting out of pool. There are legitimate reasons why you can find a good deal once in awhile.

Cue dealers have to keep their costs as low as possible these days to make any kind of profit. Background checks and such (if available...and they're not)would certainly add to their costs and would be passed on to the end user in a market that won't bear additional costs.

All in all, you must exercise diligence not to buy goods that one knows or expects might be stolen, but to suggest that Rick was a large part of the problem :confused: ? If someone had offered him the Cog for $50, he should have been suspicious, but $3,300 is a chunk of change in anybody's book and wouldn't have raised any red flags with me.

Rick is my friend and I don't expect you would know why your threads are so insulting, as you don't buy into anything that you don't perceive as "reality" (and the ever-popular "he's a really nice guy and would never buy a stolen cue" arguments), but that ever popular argument says it all about Rick.

Life's too short to be paranoid about everything and everyone. There are bad people out there, but there are also good ones, too. It pays to know which is which, and this time you couldn't be more off base...

Regards,

Steve Feld
 
Hunter said:
Rationalization is the easy part; the "right thing" is the hard part



Life's too short to be paranoid about everything and everyone. There are bad people out there, but there are also good ones, too. It pays to know which is which, and this time you couldn't be more off base...

Regards,

Steve Feld


Can I get an AMEN!

Very well said
 
Hunter said:
Rationalization is the easy part; the "right thing" is the hard part

Willie,

You hit it right on the head here. Rick did the right thing by contacting the buyer and giving her cue back

Cue dealers have to keep their costs as low as possible these days to make any kind of profit.

If someone had offered him the Cog for $50, he should have been suspicious, but $3,300 is a chunk of change in anybody's book and wouldn't have raised any red flags with me.

Rick is my friend and I don't expect you would know why your threads are so insulting,

Life's too short to be paranoid about everything and everyone.
Regards,

Steve Feld

Steve,
I don't mean to be insulting; just discussing the issue. I DO think that Rick's intentions were good; and it is admirable that he returned the cue.

I think we can all agree that stealing cues is bad; and that knowingly buying stolen cues is bad (at least I hope we agree). You suggest however, that as long as we don't know, then it is okay - and here we will disagree.

You also suggest that as long as the thief charges a lot for the cue, then he should be able to sell with impunity - and here we will have to disagree.

You also suggest that cue dealers HAVE to make a profit - and here we will also disagree. No one HAS to deal in cues; and all who do have the option to engage in other hobbies and work. Not only that; but these dealers could engage in discussion (none so far in this thread) like Bishop's on ways to help alleviate the problem. Buying cues without requiring even simple I.D. seems definitely to help the thieves. Everyone has the right to sell their own stuff; and the thieves make maximum use of this principle - I never said it would be easy (or even possible), but every little bit helps.

The "life is too short" position also has merit - but also could be viewed as just saying stopping thieves is too much trouble, let's just enjoy ourselves as we have been.

I have never meant to insult Rick; I am sure I would like him, and I believe that he has good intentions - he was certainly honorable about returning the stick once he found out. My estimate of him (though I'm sure many will point out that no one should care about my opinion of them - and they would be correct) would be raised immeasurably if we find out that he collected info on the seller, and helped the police. If that is the case I owe him a very large thank you and a very large apology. If it was just a "cash on the barrelhead from an anonymous person" then I would have to stick with my position that he is part of a widespread problem (and just for the record, I have said all along I do not know these details; and much depends on them - for all I know the perp is in jail through Rick's good work).

P.S. - rep to you for a very civil discussion of a controversial and unpopular subject.

P.P.S. - I also understand my views are in the minority around here. I don't expect many will agree. I don't expect I've made any new buddies among the used cue afficionado's. I am very pleased though, to see Bishop's thread on ways to help - something cuemakers and cue dealers might well have been involved with long ago. Cheers.
 
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Hi Willie,

Thanks for the rep and a civilized reply! It's a breath of fresh air having a discussion with someone and not resorting to name calling in the first sentence!

I just wanted to reply to a couple of your specifics to clear up any misunderstandings...

You suggest however, that as long as we don't know, then it is okay - and here we will disagree.

I'm not suggesting ignorance as the best policy. I just think that it can be futile to try to trace cues back to the tree they came from.

You also suggest that as long as the thief charges a lot for the cue, then he should be able to sell with impunity - and here we will have to disagree.

That wasn't what I was getting at. What I was saying is that typically, a cue thief has no clue as to the cue's value and that selling it far below market value would simply be one of those indicators that there might be a problem. If someone sells you a cue at $10 less than fair market value, they probably aren't looking to turn it as quick as a thief needs to...

You also suggest that cue dealers HAVE to make a profit - and here we will also disagree. No one HAS to deal in cues; and all who do have the option to engage in other hobbies and work.

This is just confusing. Noone HAS to do anything, but if you're going to be a used cue salesman, you HAVE to make a profit if you plan on being around for any period of time. I also am confused about your saying that no one HAS to deal in cues. Is this business any less honest than any other profession, to the point that it carries a stigma? Second hand products are sold every day that don't need to be cataloged, ID'd, etc. in any way. Should we stop shopping for second hand products, or should we include garage sales in the grand scheme of things? What differentiates cues?

Willie, I'm sure not advocating buying stolen stuff and I've had my share of stuff stolen. Crooks piss me off and I sure hope they get their just rewards. I'm just saying that I don't think all these safeguards are necessary, and in a short time, the bad guys would just figure a way around them anyways. For me, I try to buy cues from people I know (chatlines, friends of friends, etc.) and I still occasionally get burned. I appreciate guys like you that watch out for their community, but sometimes you just have a situation without a perfect answer. I'd love to exist in Nirvana or Heaven where everything is perfect and we have all the right answers, but reality is that I live in Phoenix. That doesn't mean I'll stop trying to get to Heaven or Nirvana, though, and hopefully someone will come up with some better solutions than we have now. Just don't go too hard on people before we have those solutions :D ...

Pleasure chatting with you!

Regards,

Steve
 
Hunter said:
Is this business any less honest than any other profession, to the point that it carries a stigma?

Steve,
I like all of your points. I suspect most cue dealers feel the same.

In answer to the above quoted question, I'm not really sure - they certainly have a stigma for some of us (whether deservedly or not I suppose is the question - obviously yes for some, no for others).

It has always been my understanding that pawnshops and garage sales give a very poor price for valuable merchandise. Pawn shops here must by law have I.D. on sellers (I have NO idea how well this is enforced). I have always supposed that the used cue dealers at the tournaments and on e-bay (and I suppose AZB as well) were the primary outlet for thieves looking to make a score - the Cog fiasco seems a prime example. I do know that several stolen cues have shown up with a local dealer; I would love for dealers to post their thoughts on what they do now to avoid this; and on what could be done in the future to improve. I DEFINITELY understand that thieves will learn to get around anything; but it would reduce the problem if people were to make things more difficult for them.

For those that don't see anything wrong with occasionally dealing in stolen cues; the status quo is just fine.
 
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Smorgass Bored said:
I think that Arnot came up with this idea about a decade ago and may have actually put a few chips in his cues (or was about to). The problem arose with 'readers'. You would need chip readers all over the country (world) and the price at the time was prohibitive.
Doug
( if I'm not right, I'm 'close' )


Edited to add: I didn't see Arnot's name in this thread, so I may be mistaken: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.billiard/msg/abbb79185512b9a1?hl=en&



.

It's easy make them with the same code as when you register a pet and use the readers at the vet's office. I bet the pet registration people would be happy for a new source of revenue.
 
For the record.

I have bought numerous cues at shows and tournaments. In many cases I have required a copy of the driver's license of the seller. On that copy I have written a statement to the effect that they cue is theirs to sell and made them sign it. I have never had a problem doing that and every time I have asked for it the person has been willing to provide the copy for me.

I agree that the buyer should bear some responsibility and try to find out a little more about the person whom he is dealing with. Especially in high dollar transactions.

Rick did the right thing - Gina did the wrong thing. Karma will bite her severely someday. She is like the little girl who cried wolf in my opinion.

Even if Rick had gotten ID from the seller he probably wouldn't be any closer to recovering his $3300 nor the $2000 Gina stole from him.
 
As a dealer I try to get my cues direct from the source whenever possible. But cues changed hands, 1, 5, 10, 100 times, even if a cuemaker made a code for the cue, and you checked it this is what would happen...

Hello, Bill, this is Joe you know this cue.. I8SOUP4BRKFAST..

Yeah, I made that cue for Chef Campbell in 98'...

Oh ok.. got his number..

No

Ok.. thanks.. background check completed...

Now what if the cue changed hands 5 times? Even if I could get a hold of someone who claimed to have owned it, you get one more verification. But the big part now is who pays for my time in the background check? Do I pass my time to the next buyer? Even if you gave them serial numbers there is no central registry. Even if there was, how many cues do you think would be systemized? Who would keep up with the transactions? What would prevent a false transaction? Like someone lying and saying they have a cue in the registry when someone else has it? What happens if its sold 3 times without a registry transaction and you need verification from the first person and he died?

On and on and on....

Willee, I admire your position, it's just not realistic. We move alot of cues, there are now over 20-30 dealers of all sizes and I am sure none of them can even try to do what you're implying be done. Buyers, whether they are dealers, collectors, end users, whoever just need to trust their instincts, an be as careful as possible. If you get a 5k Mottey for 250.00 at a pool room you need to be wary.

Another cue dealer and I have tossed around some scenarios for such a service. The big sticking points are A- who pays the fees, B- What gets registered, C- Could a cuemaker get a blanket price for registering his cues, D- Would the service even be used? E- Who bares responsibility for faulty registries, F- How could the service be effective, G-Who is responsible for updating the reg, the seller or buyer?

If I come up with the answers, I'll let you know.

JV
 
Williebetmore said:
Steve,
I like all of your points. I suspect most cue dealers feel the same.

In answer to the above quoted question, I'm not really sure - they certainly have a stigma for some of us (whether deservedly or not I suppose is the question - obviously yes for some, no for others).

It has always been my understanding that pawnshops and garage sales give a very poor price for valuable merchandise. Pawn shops here must by law have I.D. on sellers (I have NO idea how well this is enforced). I have always supposed that the used cue dealers at the tournaments and on e-bay (and I suppose AZB as well) were the primary outlet for thieves looking to make a score - the Cog fiasco seems a prime example. I do know that several stolen cues have shown up with a local dealer; I would love for dealers to post their thoughts on what they do now to avoid this; and on what could be done in the future to improve. I DEFINITELY understand that thieves will learn to get around anything; but it would reduce the problem if people were to make things more difficult for them.

For those that don't see anything wrong with occasionally dealing in stolen cues; the status quo is just fine.


Willie, I understand and appreciate you having this position, but I can tell you from first hand experience that in fact more dealers end up being screwed over "stolen cue deals" that profit from those deals. Dealers are more visible...plain and simple....therefore easier targets in those scenarios. It's very foolish for any dealer to buy a $3000 cue for a few hudred bucks from Joe Blow who just walked up off the street looking to move it FAST. That's a recipe for disaster. Everyone should be fearful of these deals.

And with the issue with Gina and her Cog. Was a cue dealer involved in that ?? If so, I must have missed out on that part of the story.

You can rest assured that more often dealers will have a cue stolen from them at, say an event, than they buy a cue which turns out to be stolen. It's happened to us on a few occasions, with only one being recovered.

There's another thing....some of the people around pool, i.e. players and/or their close associates, won't rat out their buddies who are the thieves. We had a unique fancy Josey stolen and have had some leads on it, but nothing definite enough to initiate someone prosecuted over it. It happened when a large group of people/players were in the both. Some people had to have seen it, yet no one has stepped forward to DO THE RIGHT THING.

So, please don't tell me that dealers are the problem. Some might be stone cold LIARS, but none that I know would want any action on taking in a stolen cue.
 
Rep to "classiccues" and "cueaddicts" for contributing. By "cuedealers" I have been including all who buy used cues (for individual use or for dealing); I should have been more specific.

I like the I.D. requirement a lot; I wish more people did it.

The "trust your instincts" solution is definitely necessary; but falls somewhat short of an ideal solution.:)

Good luck to you in your endeavors.
 
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