2 shot roll out.

[JAM]

I see and experienced the lameness of an opponent failing to execute a shot, lucking a safe and getting rewarded with BIH for his doodie...and I also suffered as a result of same!

How do you justify the ability to roll the ball to a different place from where it was presented to you though? I just don't get it...

Why did the pushout never find it's way to other pool games?(I think I know! )

How about some of those one-pocket games when the two balls are both adjacent to the rail, and neither player wants to break 'em up?!

JAM

 

[rhncue]

When 2-foul came to an end, so did my watching nine-ball. As far as I'm concerned, Texas Express, between 2 good players is the most boring thing on earth to watch. At their level of play you just see straight in, straight in, straight in and then if they get a little out of line they play a safe. In the old two-foul, you were constantly seeing good shots being made as the players would practice weird banks and such to use to roll out for position on. Besides, what's fair about a player, after leaving himself in a bad position, be rewarded with ball in hand by playing an easy safe.

Dick

 

[JAM]

When 2-foul came to an end, so did my watching nine-ball. As far as I'm concerned, Texas Express, between 2 good players is the most boring thing on earth to watch. At their level of play you just see straight in, straight in, straight in and then if they get a little out of line they play a safe. In the old two-foul, you were constantly seeing good shots being made as the players would practice weird banks and such to use to roll out for position on. Besides, what's fair about a player, after leaving himself in a bad position, be rewarded with ball in hand by playing an easy safe.

Dick

It's interesting to hear your opinion about it. I think that younger players who did not ever experience two-foul/roll-out for their entire pool-shooting life may have a hard time grasping the concept.

To date, I have not heard of any player from the era of two-shot/roll-out rules say they didn't like these rules.

Younger players know of no other 9-ball game than the way it is played today.

Many older players think today's 9-ball game has become more of a luck game.

I guess it's all what you're used to playing. Me, I'm an 8-ball player myself, if I was to play!

JAM

 

[Black-Balled]

When 2-foul came to an end, so did my watching nine-ball. As far as I'm concerned, Texas Express, between 2 good players is the most boring thing on earth to watch. At their level of play you just see straight in, straight in, straight in and then if they get a little out of line they play a safe. In the old two-foul, you were constantly seeing good shots being made as the players would practice weird banks and such to use to roll out for position on. Besides, what's fair about a player, after leaving himself in a bad position, be rewarded with ball in hand by playing an easy safe.

Dick

Ha! Sounds like you need to watch me play to get your 9b interest back! Every out is filled with true entertainment. In fact, my angles are so bad that I must play better than those pros! They never shoot a tough shot- how good can they play?!

On a serious note:
Besides, what's fair about a player, after playing a safe, have an opponent be able to roll out?

 

[Cuebacca]

I hope SJM chimes in. Here is a post of his from another thread on this topic:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=620726#post620726

I'm too young to have a fair opinion on "pushout" rules. However, my unfair opinion is that it doesn't sound as fun as the current rules. To me, not hitting a rail after contact is a foul.

That said, I would enjoy spending a day trying pushout rules just to see what it's like. Unfortunately, I'd probably play completely the wrong strategies, without ever seeing anyone who knows what they're doing play it first.

 

[Madcity]

There was a post awhile back on how would Lassiter adapt to not being able to pushout. I started playing around 1967 and push out was the common rule. But from what I heard from the old timers (10-20 years older than me) was that it destroyed the game and they were use to playing 1 foul. Maybe an old fart like Jay could clear this up.

 

[Black-Balled]

...what I heard from the old timers (10-20 years older than me) was that it destroyed the game and they were use to playing 1 foul...

Thanks for anticipating my next post! I was wondering what the impetus for pushout was, as well as how the change to it was viewed by those accustomed to whatever prior rules existed.

I do hope somebody has input for us!

 

[JAM]

There was a post awhile back on how would Lassiter adapt to not being able to pushout. I started playing around 1967 and push out was the common rule. But from what I heard from the old timers (10-20 years older than me) was that it destroyed the game and they were use to playing 1 foul....

A little birdie told me that when Luther Lassiter gambled with somebody, that's all he played was two-shot/push-out. Him and Don Willis, in particular, those were the rules they were seen playing when in action.

The one-foul/ball-in-hand strategy damaged the psyche of the old-school players, the reason being that if an opponent missed a ball straight in and snookered you unintentionally, there was no offense for that.

Whereas, if you were playing roll-out, you could roll out and get yourself back in the game.

It's a shame, according to the old-school players, that when an opponent misses a ball straight in that they can possibly get rewarded with the unintentional snooker, and you get penalized for it by having no shot.

In other words, why should a guy get rewarded for playing poorly, i.e., missing a shot and leaving a guy safe? If you use the roll-out rules in this scenario, you could at least have an opportunity to shoot by pushing out and stay in the game.

It is thought in some circles that today's one-foul/ball-in-hand rules transformed the game of 9-ball into more of a game of luck, than a game of skill.

JAM

 

[Pushout]

I think part of the problem is that someone not used to pushout rules doesn't know when to push out. Depended on a lot of things. Some of you guys think that the game went push, safe, push, safe, forever. Didn't work that way, at least in any game I ever saw. You were never required to push, you could play safe or shoot. There were different schools of thought about what to do when you did push. Do I push to a hard shot, a bank, a safety? Do I move only the cue ball or another ball or two besides the cue ball? How well does my oppnent play, can he bank, how is he on thin cuts, compared to me {Keith could step in, here}, how well can he play safe? Note the quote from Buddy Hall in my sig.

 

[JAM]

I think part of the problem is that someone not used to pushout rules doesn't know when to push out. Depended on a lot of things. Some of you guys think that the game went push, safe, push, safe, forever. Didn't work that way, at least in any game I ever saw. You were never required to push, you could play safe or shoot. There were different schools of thought about what to do when you did push. Do I push to a hard shot, a bank, a safety? Do I move only the cue ball or another ball or two besides the cue ball? How well does my oppnent play, can he bank, how is he on thin cuts, compared to me {Keith could step in, here}, how well can he play safe? Note the quote from Buddy Hall in my sig.

You certainly have an appropriate name for this thread, Pushout!

I understand what you are saying. The two-shot/roll-out utilized a completely different strategy for 9-ball. Kind of like chess, hoping to checkmate your opponent at every turn!

I think what upset the players the most who had to change their game plan and begin using the one-foul/ball-in-hand rules when it came to the fore was definitely the luck factor that is associated with these rules, much more so than two-shot/push-out.

JAM

 

[Madcity]

Jam

Pardon me, but someone older than you has to address when pushout came to be. As I stated earlier those who I considered oldtime (they would be well past seventy by now) hated 2 shot shootout as that was not how they learned to play. There is no doubt that great shot makers would love to be able to pushout, so it well could be that Lassiter and players of his ilk started the pushout as to give them an added advantage.

 

[Pushout]

Jam

Pardon me, but someone older than you has to address when pushout came to be.

I didn't see in any of her posts that she said anything about when the pushout rule was introduced. I've never heard when this came about, myself.

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[ironman]

You certainly have an appropriate name for this thread, Pushout!

I understand what you are saying. The two-shot/roll-out utilized a completely different strategy for 9-ball. Kind of like chess, hoping to checkmate your opponent at every turn!

I think what upset the players the most who had to change their game plan and begin using the one-foul/ball-in-hand rules when it came to the fore was definitely the luck factor that is associated with these rules, much more so than two-shot/push-out.

JAM

All Texas Express was designed to do was to speed things up and give lesser players a much better chance. That's it!!!!!

That combined with the alternating break and you have people cashing who never would have before.

 

[Black-Balled]

I think part of the problem is that someone not used to pushout rules doesn't know when to push out. Depended on a lot of things. Some of you guys think that the game went push, safe, push, safe, forever. Didn't work that way, at least in any game I ever saw. You were never required to push, you could play safe or shoot. There were different schools of thought about what to do when you did push. Do I push to a hard shot, a bank, a safety? Do I move only the cue ball or another ball or two besides the cue ball? How well does my oppnent play, can he bank, how is he on thin cuts, compared to me {Keith could step in, here}, how well can he play safe? Note the quote from Buddy Hall in my sig.

My push/ safe/ repeat (ad nauseum!) scenario was overstatement, but possible under the pushout option.

Given my limited years' exposure, I can only surmise that much the same debate too place when pushout came to be, only pushout was the new kid on the block.

Edit- where are Freddy and Jay when their input is needed?!

 

[Madcity]

I don't know about the guys that were before Lassiter. I do know he always played 2 foul, as did I.

Wow!!!! Neil you obviously traveled and staked Mr. Lassiter to know how he always played. I knew that old friend of mine was full of crap all those years he kept telling me that pushout took the skill out of the game. Now at least I can go back and tell him he wasted to much time learning how to kick at balls.

Somehow I do have the feeling that Mr. Lassiter would play by any rules to get action in his day. I only got to see him play live on 2 occasions, both times he was past his prime. Funny thing was though the other champions around still wanted weight from him.

 

[Fatboy]

You are very right, as it could be fnny to watch. I've seen matches where both were playing so badly and just kept pshing out and pushing out trying to force errors and neither could get out or make the big shot. It could also be painful to watch at times to.
Keithwas so brutal because he would push to what seemed so difficult and step up and slice it in.
Another who was real tough in the 2-shot days was Richie Ambrose. He was one hell of a shot maker. After the introduction of Texas Express, Richie was to become just another pool player.

I knew Richie, he had a good craps hustle with tourists in Vegas going for years, wow that guy had a good gig there, his best days of playing were done by then, we played a couple times-he was teaching me a few things. We also played creps a couple times at the horseshoe downtown,

when I started playing pool push-out was the game on the slow cloth, I liked it but then the fast cloth and express rulkes happened about the same time where I lived at the time, I like either game, probably express a little bit more.

 

[Pushout]

I didn't see in any of her posts that she said anything about when the pushout rule was introduced. I've never heard when this came about, myself.

Out of curiosity, I pm'd George Fels and asked him if he knew when the pushout rules were implemented. He doesn't know, but thinks Mike Shamos might. At my request, he will pass the question on to Mike Shamos. I'll post if and when I hear anything.

 

[hippiepool]

No, the 2-shot/roll-out rules would actually, according to my source, increase the safety play.

As an example, there's a lot of times that you could roll out to try to play a better safety than maybe a safety that was left for you, hopefully to enable you to get a better shot or, in the alternative, leave the guy where he might make a mistake. The whole purpose is to try to outsmart your opponent, hoping he'll make a mistake, enabling you to get to the table with a good shot that you can make.

JAM

wouldn't you say that it is a lot like playing ring game rules ....but with 2 players ...? I too remember this ....as I recall it was only used in gambling ....not sure about tournaments...

 

[hippiepool]

Jam

Pardon me, but someone older than you has to address when pushout came to be. As I stated earlier those who I considered oldtime (they would be well past seventy by now) hated 2 shot shootout as that was not how they learned to play. There is no doubt that great shot makers would love to be able to pushout, so it well could be that Lassiter and players of his ilk started the pushout as to give them an added advantage.

I'm guessing the reason they started it was to keep people from "passing" like in a ring game ....when you have the option to allow the player who happened to "miss" the object ball to shoot again.....remember there was no ball in hand .....
similiar rules helped 8 - ball .....not sure about 9 - ball .....