2 shot roll out.

1 foul loathing

I'd like to go on record as disliking 1 foul...I have not enjoyed 9-ball (seriously) since the change from roll-out.

It's a completely different game.
The top ten players would change. Shotmakers would rule.
It was about playing to your opponent's weakness and avoiding his abilities. Lots more strategy...favors the better player.

When Red Box put the $10,000 action guarantee in Billiards News for Buddy Hall, several showed up and almost every one went home broke because Buddy (the Rifleman) Hall was the shotmaker from Heaven. If he pushed out a shot...you had better not let him shoot it AND you had better be damn careful what you rolled out for him to decide.

Louie Roberts played it pretty damn good too...almost amazing...Buddy broke him.

Unfortunately, I don't think you are likely to learn the finer points of the game playing it for a few weeks with other inexperienced players. Lots more moves than you might think at first glance. Very exciting to play and watch.

We did not spot the balls unless it was the the ball before the money...AND if you scratched on the 1 and the 2 through 7 were behind the headstring...the 2 through 7 were pocketed automatically and you would be shooting at the 8.

I hung around a lot of the older guys (Lassiter's era) and never heard one of them talk about 1 shot foul. I think we can safely say that whatever they played at Johnson City was the deal of the day...but that is a little late in Lassiter's life.

Just my opinion...you be the judge

Hittman
Take a Hitt out on 'em
 
2 shot roll out, is a game that I felt gave advantage to the better player. It wasn't a push, safe - push safe. Players played this game to their potential. If they were better at banks, they pushed to a bank. If they were better at cut shots, they pushed to that senario. They played to what they thought they could do better than the other guy. But, they played to shoot, not duck.

When I played this in the earlier years, you evaluated the opponent during play and attacked those weaknesses. Sure you might miss a shot and get safe on the opponent, but, your ability to make those HARD shots is what separated the good players from the weaker players.

One would find themselves at the pool room practicing out of the ordinary banks/cut shots to separate you from the others. Not practicing safe play, because it didn't do you any good. The other player could always "push". I think it made the players better in shot making.

Texas express brought a whole new objective to the game and made people think in a more strategic process. Both have their good points. 2 shot was eliminated because of the time factor for TV, not because of the game.

Play this with someone sometime. It will improve your shot making ability, or, you will spend a lot of time racking. IMO

Good luck
 
On The Other Hand

Black-Balled said:
Ha! Sounds like you need to watch me play to get your 9b interest back! Every out is filled with true entertainment. In fact, my angles are so bad that I must play better than those pros! They never shoot a tough shot- how good can they play?!:o :D ;) :rolleyes:

On a serious note:
Besides, what's fair about a player, after playing a safe, have an opponent be able to roll out?
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I played 2 shot roll out for years,and I differ in others opinion on less luck in 2 shot.Texas express adds more excitement to the game plus there are more decisions to make while at the table.Two shot roll out clearly favors the better shooter,and banker,while Tex ex. favors the better technician and safety player.Plus in Tex ex. the games play faster,and faster is better.
 
The one thing I don't like about push out is that you are not adequately awarded if you intentionally play a good safe b/c the other player just pushes out of it.

IMO, a mix of the two would be ideal. Play the 2 shot roll out but if you chose to play a safe, call "safe", and the other player can't roll out. If they foul, ball in hand.

Ryan
 
Madcity said:
Jam

Pardon me, but someone older than you has to address when pushout came to be....
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Wow, in a strange way, Madcity, that's the best compliment I've had in a long time! :p

JAM
 
texas express ? who invented it?

hippie dave was the one that invented "texas express" rules. 1975 at the 8 ball pool hall on lemmon ave in dallas. robin adair is full of it . i know i was there. me and dick lane. as far as 2 shot shoot out if u couldnt make a spot shot or bank or cut the ball in off the back rail u couldnt win. period the best player always won. thats why ronnie and richie came up with ball in hand because the weak players had no chance to win and it was killing the action. we had to find a way to let the lightweights win? thats why ball in hand is so popular are donkey can duck and duck get ball in hand and then win. i played vanover in amarillo tourney in the seventies. he saw he couldnt win the match so he hooked me 3 times with ball in hand and said well i win the 3 foul rule im enforceing he says! i said i never heard of such a thing/ aman can win without have to make a ball? anyway that was the end of 2 shot shoot out! sparky webb
 
mark8950 said:
...i said i never heard of such a thing/ aman can win without have to make a ball? anyway that was the end of 2 shot shoot out! sparky webb
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My little brain thinks the 3-foul rule was implemented to eliminate situations where neither player can or wants to hit the ball, like when it is tied up, resulting in a stalemate. Like all rules, there are unintended possibilities...

IMO, it is pretty weak that a player can win without shooting a ball in the hole, but equally as weak is the option to pushout from where the shot is presented.

Looking forward to input from Shamos...perhaps Bob Jewett, Jay, Freddie and Grady too (in no particular order!).
 
Two shot shoot out, as it was called, generally favored the better player, but also gave the player somewhat of a crutch, knowing that if he got out of line he could roll out to a neutral spot. It was recently posted that Harold Worst didn't like roll out because "Why should a player improve his situation when he has missed position?" And so when he gambled he played shoot to hit.
When you hook yourself in one foul, obviously you pay more of a price for it. You also wouldn't see all the kick shots and masses with two shot shoot out.
 
Neil took your advice and read dictionary:

al?ways /ˈɔlweɪz, -wiz/
–adverb
1. every time; on every occasion; without exception: He always works on Saturday.
2. all the time; continuously; uninterruptedly: There is always some pollution in the air.
3. forever: Will you always love me?
4. in any event; at any time; if necessary: She can always move back with her parents.


—Synonyms 1. regularly, invariably, consistently. 2, 3. perpetually, everlastingly, continuously. Both always and ever refer to uniform or perpetual continuance. Always often expresses or implies repetition as producing the uniformity or continuance: The sun always rises in the east. Ever implies an unchanging sameness throughout: Natural law is ever to be reckoned with.

Damn couldn't find general way in there anyplace. Now take your blood pressure meds and calm down.

But this is getting way off point. The original question was when was shootout started? I do not know. What I do know is it was in play by 1967 and an old friend claims it was not in play when he started gambling back in the late 40's. Is that true? I do not know, but he could kick balls in very well.
 
who cares

Black-Balled said:
My little brain thinks the 3-foul rule was implemented to eliminate situations where neither player can or wants to hit the ball, like when it is tied up, resulting in a stalemate. Like all rules, there are unintended possibilities...

IMO, it is pretty weak that a player can win without shooting a ball in the hole, but equally as weak is the option to pushout from where the shot is presented.

Looking forward to input from Shamos...perhaps Bob Jewett, Jay, Freddie and Grady too (in no particular order!).
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In my opinion the three foul rule is inconsequential in comparison to roll out opposed to Tex ex. There is much more skill needed to play Tex ex.,which is clearly a more demanding game that carries much more pressure and excitement. Roll out really sucks. oops,did I say something wrong.
 
wincardona said:
In my opinion the three foul rule is inconsequential in comparison to roll out opposed to Tex ex. There is much more skill needed to play Tex ex.,which is clearly a more demanding game that carries much more pressure and excitement. Roll out really sucks. oops,did I say something wrong.
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Hey! You might be on to something here.

A more demanding game that carries much more pressure and excitement.

Hmmmm...we need to take One pocket and make it one foul-ball in hand anywhere on the table also. It would speed it up for TV just like one-foul 9-ball did. Oops sorry, it didn't.



One-foul 9-ball sucks...I know it goes both ways but I would prefer NOT to shit hook somebody to thunderous applause or take ball in hand and bump a ball 2 inches and hook a guy and people think its a great shot or make a really really tough shot on the 7, 8 or 9 and scratch and the guy doesn't even have to make a spot shot, just has to get up and push it in with his thing. Sweet!
 
Think about it

stevelomako said:
Hey! You might be on to something here.

A more demanding game that carries much more pressure and excitement.

Hmmmm...we need to take One pocket and make it one foul-ball in hand anywhere on the table also. It would speed it up for TV just like one-foul 9-ball did. Oops sorry, it didn't.



One-foul 9-ball sucks...I know it goes both ways but I would prefer NOT to shit hook somebody to thunderous applause or take ball in hand and bump a ball 2 inches and hook a guy and people think its a great shot or make a really really tough shot on the 7, 8 or 9 and scratch and the guy doesn't even have to make a spot shot, just has to get up and push it in with his thing. Sweet!
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Are you really inferring that the interest for 9 ball on tv was diminished with the implement of one foul?? Really.
Poor analogy when you suggest one foul ball in hand playing one pocket. One of the most effective shots when defending and maintaining a position would be eliminated. The intentional scratch.

when a player misses and shit hooks his opponent it is fru.strating to the other player, and also in a sense an injustice. But that will happen for you as many times that it happens against you. So we can call that a wash. But what is the penalty for a player that plays himself out of position ,simply because he loses controll of the cue ball when playing roll out? Not very much . The weaker player will be rewarded in that instance, is that fair? Correct me if i'm wrong ,but I don't know of any sport or game that if you play yourself out of position that your not penalized.
 
wincardona said:
Are you really inferring that the interest for 9 ball on tv was diminished with the implement of one foul?? Really.
Poor analogy when you suggest one foul ball in hand playing one pocket. One of the most effective shots when defending and maintaining a position would be eliminated. The intentional scratch.

when a player misses and shit hooks his opponent it is fru.strating to the other player, and also in a sense an injustice. But that will happen for you as many times that it happens against you. So we can call that a wash. But what is the penalty for a player that plays himself out of position ,simply because he loses controll of the cue ball when playing roll out? Not very much . The weaker player will be rewarded in that instance, is that fair? Correct me if i'm wrong ,but I don't know of any sport or game that if you play yourself out of position that your not penalized.
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I didn't infer anything that the "interest" in 9-ball was diminished on TV with the advent of 1-foul. I made a comment about it was supposed to "speed it up" for TV. That seems to be one of the misconceptions about 1-foul, that it was invented for TV but in reality it was a gaff rule invented to get more players in tournaments in a short race where they would have a better chance to beat someone better than them. Tell me I'm wrong on this.

So why was it a poor analogy, when they took 9-ball and changed the rules COMPLETELY?? I think it is an EXCELLENT analogy, with the implimentation of 1-foul to one pocket, weaker players would have a better chance to win. The intentional scratch can go the way of a spot shot in 9-ball...gone.

Isn't that what it's all about? To try and level the playing ground for people that never practiced as much as others, had/have as much talent as others. Aren't we supposed to punish players for being better than most of the population? Isn't that why pockets got tighter? To prevent better players from running out/making more balls than someone weaker? They played with 5in pockets forever. What's wrong with running a jillion of balls? People would like to see guys running a ton of racks, trying to bust up clusters to keep a string going and not get punished for being aggressive.


We can't call it a wash about a shit hook though, because it may not even out in a single set or even in a few sets.

What about the other 2 comments about bumping a ball into a hook and ball in hand on the 7, 8 or 9?

In ALL pool/billiard/snooker games you CAN play yourself out of position and not be penalized. If you get out of position you play safe/take a scratch, whatever.


Lets keep this discussion up.
 
stevelomako said:
I didn't infer anything that the "interest" in 9-ball was diminished on TV with the advent of 1-foul. I made a comment about it was supposed to "speed it up" for TV. That seems to be one of the misconceptions about 1-foul, that it was invented for TV but in reality it was a gaff rule invented to get more players in tournaments in a short race where they would have a better chance to beat someone better than them. Tell me I'm wrong on this...Let's keep this discussion up.
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That's what I heard, too. The new rules allowed the weaker players to have a chance to win.

According to my boyfriend who was around in those days when the rules of 9-ball changed, he said the East Coast players couldn't beat the West Coast players, and so they changed the rules to give the East Coast players a chance to win a little bone every now and then. :D

JAM
 
JAM said:
That's what I heard, too. The new rules allowed the weaker players to have a chance to win.

According to my boyfriend who was around in those days when the rules of 9-ball changed, he said the East Coast players couldn't beat the West Coast players, and so they changed the rules to give the East Coast players a chance to win a little bone every now and then. :D

JAM
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I believe Keith might be right about this. I remember back to the early seventies when shoot out was very much in play here in the west coast. Cole Dixon steered a road player into my room to play me. I think he was from Florida. Randy Johnson?

After winning a good number of sets playing push out he wanted to change the game to one foul BIH. I refused because I had no idea about this style of play. He quit and his backer said "play some more". He told his backer "can't you understand, I cant't beat him with these rules".

Playing push out any two fouls was absolutly the nuts for me. Playing against good players I mostly pushed to where who ever took the shot would be forced to play safe, anything else was suicide. I waited for mistakes from them on their safety play.
 
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