3 Foul Rule Scenario...What would you do ?

stevekur1

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
In tonight's league match i had scratched twice in a row, and my opponent told me so after i made the second foul. then he pocketed a few balls and never warned me as i approached the table that i was on 2. i slow rolled a ball to the pocket and the ball hung. neither CB or OB hit a rail, foul #3 !!!

like i said opponent didn't warn me before i shot that i was on 2, would you take the 3 foul deduction. or play the technicality rule ?

I felt guilty about it, and told him he had to warn me pre-shot about being on 2. he agreed and knew i was correct. and didn't expect me to take the full deduction.

What would you guys do ?

-Steve
 
There's no deduction here, as I sense you realize. You must be warned as you approach the table for the fifteen point penalty to apply.

If you knew you were on two as you approached the table, you might have told your opponent "I'm on two." I will always do this if I realize I'm on two. One cannot be faulted for not saying this, but, to me, this is a case of whether the spirit of the law should prevail over the letter of the law.

The letter of the law says that if not advised as you approach the table, the fifteen point deduction cannot be assessed against you. In my opinion, though, the spirit of the law is that you should not be assessed a fifteen point penalty unless you know you are on two before shooting.

No penalty here, but some food for thought.
 
sjm said:
... In my opinion, though, the spirit of the law is that you should not be assessed a fifteen point penalty unless you know you are on two before shooting. ...
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But if you foul 3 consecutive times and know it, even though neither player said anything at the correct time about being on two fouls, wouldn't the spirit of the law compel you to take the 15-point penalty?
 
AtLarge said:
But if you foul 3 consecutive times and know it, even though neither player said anything at the correct time about being on two fouls, wouldn't the spirit of the law compel you to take the 15-point penalty?
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I would have to say no, but my recommendation to anyone who wants to live by the spirit of the law is that if they realize they are on two and opponent forgets to mention it then say "I'm on two."

A similar ethical question arises in nine ball when a player forgets to say "push." If they shoot away from the one ball, there is strong evidence that the shot played was intended to be a "push," but, once again, you can bend here if you like, but you don't have to under the rules, and few would let this go in major competition.
 
sjm said:
The letter of the law says that if not advised as you approach the table, the fifteen point deduction cannot be assessed against you.
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I'm curious what letter of the law is being referred to, is this in the rules? Or is this standard protocol in leagues? (I've never played in a league so no idea, just curious).

Thanks,
Chris
 
Something i failed to add is that, when i made the 3rd foul I told him i was gonna take the 3rd foul point deduction even though he failed to mention that i was on 2 as i approached the table.

he said he refused for me to take the deduction and that i was correct in the ruling.

Sorry for the confusion
-Steve
 
cstrombe said:
I'm curious what letter of the law is being referred to, is this in the rules? Or is this standard protocol in leagues? (I've never played in a league so no idea, just curious).

Thanks,
Chris
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From the WPA (World-Standardized) rules:

6.14 Three Consecutive Fouls
If a player fouls three times without making an intervening legal shot, it is a serious foul. In games scored by the rack, such as nine ball, the fouls must be in a single rack. Some games such as eight ball do not include this rule.
The referee must warn a shooter who is on two fouls when he comes to the table that he is on two fouls. Otherwise a possible third foul will be considered to be only the second.

4.11 Serious Fouls [from the 14.1 rules]
For Rule 6.14 Three Consecutive Fouls, only standard fouls are counted, so a breaking foul does not count as one of the three fouls. A point is subtracted for the third foul as usual, and then the additional fifteen-point penalty is subtracted and the offending player’s consecutive foul count is reset to zero. All fifteen balls are re-racked and the offending player is required to shoot under the requirements of the opening break.​
 
AtLarge said:
From the WPA (World-Standardized) rules:

6.14 Three Consecutive Fouls
If a player fouls three times without making an intervening legal shot, it is a serious foul. In games scored by the rack, such as nine ball, the fouls must be in a single rack. Some games such as eight ball do not include this rule.
The referee must warn a shooter who is on two fouls when he comes to the table that he is on two fouls. Otherwise a possible third foul will be considered to be only the second.

​
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Thanks for the info.
 
I would hit the ball a little harder so it didn't hang in the pocket.

:smile:
 
alstl said:
I would hit the ball a little harder so it didn't hang in the pocket.

:smile:
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that was my mental lapse stroke. i kinda half hit it, mentally i was set to take the shot yet. and i swung anyways !!!

thanks for the advice
-Steve
 
stevekur1 said:
Something i failed to add is that, when i made the 3rd foul I told him i was gonna take the 3rd foul point deduction even though he failed to mention that i was on 2 as i approached the table.

he said he refused for me to take the deduction and that i was correct in the ruling.

Sorry for the confusion
-Steve
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Was he being kind for "refusing"? Or did he just want the open table? Maybe he didn't warn you that you were on two cause it sounds like you had a straightforward shot.

I would definitely remind him to tell me that I'm on two. I have had opponents do this for me as well.

Andy
 
If there is a scoreboard, it is considered sufficient warning, assuming fouls are noted on it:
When a game has a three-foul rule, the referee should note to the players any second foul at the time that it occurs and also when the player who is on two fouls returns to the table. The first warning is not required by the rules but is meant to prevent later misunderstandings. If there is a scoreboard on which the foul count is visible to the players, it satisfies the warning requirement.​
One solution for unrefereed matches is to have a card with yellow on one side and red on the other. Put the appropriate side up depending on the number of fouls and place it by the player's chair. This also helps faulty memories.
 
My opponent told me that if I take the deduction he would forfeit the match. Because he knew he should of warned me and wouldn't want to continue because the game would of been inaccurate as far as scoring !!!

Steve
 
stevekur1 said:
My opponent told me that if I take the deduction he would forfeit the match. Because he knew he should of warned me and wouldn't want to continue because the game would of been inaccurate as far as scoring !!!

Steve
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this is the worst argument ever. It's like friends fighting to pay the bill :)
 
A nice feature of the IPad Billiards Buddy scoring app is it displays number of fouls you are on. I believe it will also warn you when you are on 2 fouls and coming up to shoot. If you foul again, it instructs you of the point deduction and instructs you to rack and re-break.
 
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