3 rail position help

Woof Biscuit

Woof Biscuit

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Silver Member
:confused: I have struggled some lately with 3 rail position. The shot that I'm talking about specifically comes up all the time in 9 ball. The object ball is a diamond or two up from the corner pocket and the cue ball is near the middle of the table. You hit the cue ball with inside-top or inside to spin three rails into the line of your next shot in the opposite corner. I can usually get really close just by "feel" but sometimes really close isn't good enough. I need to know which side I'm coming into the shot on so that I can play position for the 3rd ball. Here is a video of Joe T hitting the shot that I'm talking about but he doesn't say how he judges it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O8g-Xg2L5A&feature=share&list=PL6C0D15A494BC02D9

What I usually do, is check the line coming into the ball and work backwards to see where it makes the most sense to hit the second rail (short rail), but there is no science to it. By nature, I'm a very analytical person. If the physics are certain on the shot, it gives me a lot of confidence. Anyone know a "system"? Thanks in advance for the help. :)
 
I do it by feel too. Not always correctly. I guess we all should know the diamond system, play more 3 Cushion, and just play more period. Wish I had studied 3 Cushion when I was younger and had the chance but wasn't interested :(...Tom
 
One thing you have to know is that if the cueball comes into the short rail at a 45 degree angle you are going to pass through the center of the table. You can see this on all of his shots.

Focus on a hit and spin that gets you this 45 and your cueball path will be a lot more predictable.

Work on it.


Woof Biscuit said:
:confused: I have struggled some lately with 3 rail position. The shot that I'm talking about specifically comes up all the time in 9 ball. The object ball is a diamond or two up from the corner pocket and the cue ball is near the middle of the table. You hit the cue ball with inside-top or inside to spin three rails into the line of your next shot in the opposite corner. I can usually get really close just by "feel" but sometimes really close isn't good enough. I need to know which side I'm coming into the shot on so that I can play position for the 3rd ball. Here is a video of Joe T hitting the shot that I'm talking about but he doesn't say how he judges it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O8g-Xg2L5A&feature=share&list=PL6C0D15A494BC02D9

What I usually do, is check the line coming into the ball and work backwards to see where it makes the most sense to hit the second rail (short rail), but there is no science to it. By nature, I'm a very analytical person. If the physics are certain on the shot, it gives me a lot of confidence. Anyone know a "system"? Thanks in advance for the help. :)
Click to expand...
 
Less spin will make it stay short and more will make it go longer, generally. This varies a lot with the cut angle, so I consider it to be a feel shot. Practice it for a while with different amounts of spin and angle and it will click. There is another way I like to play this shot, if, for whatever reason, you can't go the conventional three rails. You can shoot it firm with high outside and the cue ball will hook a bit, straight across table, then the spin catches off the opposite rail and it goes forward and back around to center table. It's a fun shot and, though you do have to hit it better, sometimes it feels more natural to not have to use inside, depending on your exact angle. A game of inches...

Then of course you could just draw it out with outside, or go twice across with a touch of outside. Or draw with inside and go the opposite three rails. Or straight follow with a lot of juice and hook it straight toward the end rail and back out. So many options... and using them all is what keeps this game fun!

But the shot you are referring to, I find it easier to control with less spin, it doesn't take much to get around unless the cut is thin. If the hit is fat, I will usually use a different path. Really there's a fairly small window of angles where I like going inside three rails.
 
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I don't think this is a shot you can mark out with a ruler and a system to play shape from. You are using spin, speed, angle all in one shot, which is very hard to nail without a "feel" of how your stoke and table react. If the rail gabs spin a bit more than another, you will be off by quite a bit.

I have a huge issue with making this shot going to my right because of the way I hit, I tend to go to the right with my tip, which works out OK with right spin, but tends to make my left spin shots be almost center ball. So I end up hitting that inside spin shot almost center, and scratch in the opposite corner hehe. Or it just dies off the end rail and does not spin around.
 
I don't know of a system, but I have some tricks to estimate it.

I think straight inside spin (no top) is a bit more predictable than high+inside. Both can get the job done, when you add topspin to the mix, the cue ball hooks and doesn't turn as sharply off the first rail. It's hard to predict how much the spin will take off each rail and how sharply it will 'bend'.

If you use just middle sidespin, imo not only moves the ball around more easily, the path starts to look more like a typical 2-rail kick path. It becomes semi-predictable. So I'd first recommend practicing this with just plain middle sidespin. Maybe just a smidge of top.

My trick for this is to understand the maximum effect you can get from inside spin, which is to make the cue ball's path from rail 2 to 3... run almost parallel to the path from cue ball to object ball.

You need a ton of inside spin to even come close to this imaginary line.

So you know a more realistic line will have you hit the third rail quite a bit south of the imaginary maximum line. How far south? Well in the video, it's a little over 1 diamond, which I think is a good rule of thumb for common angles like 30-45 degrees.

Finally, when the cue ball arrives at the head of the table, it will be almost a perfect mirror-like reflection of the path going into the third rail, because most of the speed and spin has died down and it's mostly just a naturally rolling ball now.

I'm trying to draw what I mean in the attached diagram. Basically:

1. I imagine where I am hitting the first rail with "average inside" which varies from player to player and cue to cue :P

2. I imagine the "maximum inside" line (shown in pink)

3. I imagine the object ball realistically hitting the third rail at least a diamond below that line (shown in yellow)

4. By imagining [1] and [3] I can sort of visualize the line coming into the third rail, and I assume the line exiting the third rail is pretty much a mirror-like reflection of it. In other words, if it's moving at 45 degrees and hits a diamond below the side, it will end up on the 4th rail about a diamond below the corner.
 

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Guys...what can I say? That's great information! Thank you all. And Creedo, I really appreciate the diagram. I'm looking forward to trying these ideas out. In this game of inches, this has always been a weak spot for me when I need to come into the ball just a little to one side or another to create the needed angle.
 
Since Creedo was so nice to post an example, I will take the liberty to use his example to give you a rough idea of my system for this shot. It will vary by table and conditions, however it may give you a system to start with.

In the example the blue ball is 5 diamonds from the paper target. Now shoot to make the blue ball and try to get the cue ball 'toward' the 2 1/2 diamond area on the short rail. (I am counting the diamonds on the short rail from the right side as in facing the photo.)If the paper target was 1 diamond closer to the blue ball that would be a 4 diamond difference. Just divide that in half and shoot so the cue ball goes towards the 2nd diamond.

This not extrememly accurate, but it may give you a better feel to break up clusters.
 
You are using a combination of topsin and inside english. If you use less topspin, the CB will tend to follow a line closer to the tangent line, so it will come off the rail with a less sharp angle. In this shot, if you hit the end rail closer to the pocket with the CB, (which you will accomplish with less topspin) the inside english will twist the CB more towards the opposite middle pocket. If you make the ball with maximum inside and hit the end rail just before the corner pocket, you may even scratch into the middle pocket.

Now the more topspin you use, the "shallower" you will hit the end rail. With the combination of the inside english, you will tend to follow a path that passes from the center of the table and leads you above the middle pocket.

So IMO, the amount of follow is the key here. But to sum up, feeling plays a major part in this shot. And of course, aiming. I assume that you hit the OB first. (you can never hit the OB and the cushion at the same time, you either hit the one or the other first) If you hit the cushion first, the CB changes path completely. It will get a ton of spin, and you may scratch at the opposite corner pocket, or even hit the long rail.
 
Neil said:
Go here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT1MXlzyBLI&feature=relmfu and start at about 3:50. Then from the reference line, you can add 1 tip of english for a diamond to get where you want to go. Pretty reliable, and while there is some difference from table to table, and person to person, it gives you a good benchmark to start from.
Click to expand...
yes, learn exactly what tip positions do for you practicing across the short rail. 1,2,3 diamonds spread. then add the amount of diamonds you need to travel for a certain shot.
In other words learn to Clock Your Cue Ball.
 
Tennesseejoe said:
Since Creedo was so nice to post an example, I will take the liberty to use his example to give you a rough idea of my system for this shot. It will vary by table and conditions, however it may give you a system to start with.

In the example the blue ball is 5 diamonds from the paper target. Now shoot to make the blue ball and try to get the cue ball 'toward' the 2 1/2 diamond area on the short rail. (I am counting the diamonds on the short rail from the right side as in facing the photo.)If the paper target was 1 diamond closer to the blue ball that would be a 4 diamond difference. Just divide that in half and shoot so the cue ball goes towards the 2nd diamond.

This not extrememly accurate, but it may give you a better feel to break up clusters.
Click to expand...
A very accurate way to do this is to use the Plus System for two-rail kicks. It's described on Dr. Dave's website here <--.

plus system.jpg

pj
chgo
 
Woof Biscuit said:
:confused: I have struggled some lately with 3 rail position. The shot that I'm talking about specifically comes up all the time in 9 ball. The object ball is a diamond or two up from the corner pocket and the cue ball is near the middle of the table. You hit the cue ball with inside-top or inside to spin three rails into the line of your next shot in the opposite corner. I can usually get really close just by "feel" but sometimes really close isn't good enough. I need to know which side I'm coming into the shot on so that I can play position for the 3rd ball. Here is a video of Joe T hitting the shot that I'm talking about but he doesn't say how he judges it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O8g-Xg2L5A&feature=share&list=PL6C0D15A494BC02D9

What I usually do, is check the line coming into the ball and work backwards to see where it makes the most sense to hit the second rail (short rail), but there is no science to it. By nature, I'm a very analytical person. If the physics are certain on the shot, it gives me a lot of confidence. Anyone know a "system"? Thanks in advance for the help. :)
Click to expand...

Depending on the side you're on, 10 oclock or 2 oclock english should do it. You want it to be running with some top.
 
JimmyWhite said:
You are using a combination of topsin and inside english. If you use less topspin, the CB will tend to follow a line closer to the tangent line, so it will come off the rail with a less sharp angle. In this shot, if you hit the end rail closer to the pocket with the CB, (which you will accomplish with less topspin) the inside english will twist the CB more towards the opposite middle pocket. If you make the ball with maximum inside and hit the end rail just before the corner pocket, you may even scratch into the middle pocket.

Now the more topspin you use, the "shallower" you will hit the end rail. With the combination of the inside english, you will tend to follow a path that passes from the center of the table and leads you above the middle pocket.

So IMO, the amount of follow is the key here. But to sum up, feeling plays a major part in this shot. And of course, aiming. I assume that you hit the OB first. (you can never hit the OB and the cushion at the same time, you either hit the one or the other first) If you hit the cushion first, the CB changes path completely. It will get a ton of spin, and you may scratch at the opposite corner pocket, or even hit the long rail.
Click to expand...

what this guy said.... i just concentrate on where i want to hit the top rail first, the amount of sidespin i put on it is relative to how slow or fast the table plays as well. i.e. - on brand new cloth, shots like this get tricky with too much sidespin, you need more natural momentum of the cueball to get around rather than "spin the ball around the rails" hence i'd hit the shot a little firmer with less english and a touch higher on the ball.
 
JimmyWhite:
...you can never hit the OB and the cushion at the same time, you either hit the one or the other first
Click to expand...
Of course it's possible to hit them at the same time, so I assume you mean it's rare to hit them exactly simultaneously?

pj
chgo
 
I like to have a spot to aim at on the second cushion, and the way I do it is to walk around to the spot where the cueball will contact the first cushion and measure out a 2-rail kick from there. An experienced player can easily judge the two-railer within a half-diamond or less, and inexperienced players have several good two-rail systems to choose from. Patrick's system is a good one, or, since the target area for 3-rail position is usually larger than a ball, you can simply use the parallel lines method to estimate the 2-rail path closely enough for most of these shots.

Not sure if the WEI table is working again, but the attached diagram shows Joe's shot on page 1, and a variation of it with an intervening ball on page 2.

For the first shot, I aim a two-rail kick from cueball A (the contact point on the first cushion) to cueball B (my target) for position on the 7-ball. I ordinarily just use the parallel lines method for this type of shot to find my aim point (X) on the 2nd cushion. This is done by finding the midpoint between cueball A and cueball B (midpoint marked by the 15-ball), drawing an imaginary line from that point to the pocket, and attempting to follow a line parallel to that into the first cushion. For argument's sake, I'll assume that I would use tip of inside for this shot.

The second shot is different in that there is an intervening ball (7-ball) blocking the preferred path. If I look at it as a 2 rail kick from the first cushion, however, I can easily imagine a path with more spin that will avoid the intervening ball while landing in the same target area. The beauty is that if I estimate that it will take 1 1/2 tips of inside to make the two-rail kick shot, then that means I need 1 1/2 tips of inside on the shot. Conveniently, the added spin will also help me accomplish the new aim point on the second rail, again marked as point "X", while using the desired speed for position.

shot 001a.jpg

shot001b.jpg

http://pool.bz/P/?@3Fayj1GJMA2HSGE2...2kARl3kaqP3layS4lFdj4lbhW2lYBb3qBtsX&ZZ3uBfR@

Hope that helps,
Aaron
 
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Woof Biscuit said:
:confused: I have struggled some lately with 3 rail position. The shot that I'm talking about specifically comes up all the time in 9 ball. The object ball is a diamond or two up from the corner pocket and the cue ball is near the middle of the table. You hit the cue ball with inside-top or inside to spin three rails into the line of your next shot in the opposite corner. I can usually get really close just by "feel" but sometimes really close isn't good enough. I need to know which side I'm coming into the shot on so that I can play position for the 3rd ball. Here is a video of Joe T hitting the shot that I'm talking about but he doesn't say how he judges it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O8g-Xg2L5A&feature=share&list=PL6C0D15A494BC02D9
Click to expand...
On shots like these, with the object ball frozen to the cushion, the outcome of the shot varies a lot depending on whether you hit the cushion first or the ball first. For more information (including video demos), see:

Enjoy,
Dave
 
Aaron_S:
Patrick's system is a good one
Click to expand...
The Plus System is uncannily accurate for two-rail short-rail-first kicks, but you have to first calibrate the amount of running spin needed for the table you're on. The amount of running spin put on the CB is amplified by this kind of shot, so you also have to take that into account - without some adjustment (using less sidespin) you'll go short.

I also like Eckert's way of calibrating these shots (that Neil mentioned).

pj
chgo
 
Aaron_S said:
...
Not sure if the WEI table is working again, but the attached diagram shows ...
Click to expand...
It is not working at least for some of us. I think the best way is to take a screen capture of the shot no matter how you get it onto your screen. For screen shots on Windows 7 I use the "cropper" program which is simple, easy to use and does exactly what I want.
 
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