526

[dmgwalsh]

Help me out here -- I didn't see anybody question John's integrity. The only thing I read was where someone (Lou) happened to bring up for discussion the idea of cleaning/polishing the balls, including the cue ball during the course of a run. I think it's a legitimate subject to talk about. I really think you have to read deeply into Lou's post to think he's questioning John's integrity.

Here is part of what I was responding to.

"my only gripe with some of the contemporary runs is that there is a lot of ball polishing going on during some of the runs and in the middle of at least one big run, the CB was repeatedly removed from the table to be cleaned *by the player.* For me (just talkin' about me) that lessens the integrity of the run. I feel that the balls should only be cleaned before the start of a run and if the CB must have some chalk removed from it it should be by an impartial party and certainly not by the player. Not saying anything funny is going on, but I do think the player himself moving the CB is not right. But that's just me." LF

The only point I was responding to was the issue of cleaning the cue ball. Lou said he was not saying that he thought something funny was going on, but he just did not like the player moving and cleaning the cue ball.

I said, since we know nothing funny is going on, (In fact we get to watch it on video), and since in a match, he would be entitled to have a referee clean the cue ball, what difference does it make if, when there is no referee, he cleans it himself?

Much ado about nothing, in my humble opinion.

 

[john schmidt]

hi

John, no disrespect to you as I know your a great player at all games matter of fact one of the best all around players today. You don't believe Efren could beat the record why is that? Efren excels at full rack games. In my opinion the greatest all around player to ever play. If you could possibly beat it why couldn't Efren? Possibly because his age? That would be my guess.

ive seen efren play 14.1 .hes awesome but does not play the game correctly enough to have a legit shot at running 500 plus and i think would be the first to admit that. he misses more then i would also possibly from age.
if he had played 14.1 his whole career then maybe.
i would much rather play efren 14,1 for money then say the top euros. they and myself are favorite over him in a long long match. thats just the way it is sorry.
his 3cushion background is one of the things that makes him so dominant in rotation games[kicking] and one pocket.
in 14.1 those skills are not as prevalent ,shot making and position play is more important which of course he is great at though.
in closing again efren is great but when it comes to 14.1 there are others who are slightly stronger.

 

[BelleBelle]

Thanks John for the quick response and best of luck to you in all your endeavors

 

[lfigueroa]

I have said *numerous times* that I think you're a great player. And I thought it was fantastic that you won The World title to add to your many accomplishments.

It's kinda of funny: a little ways back, when the topic was another player's "accomplishments" I was such an insightful fan of the game that you PM'd me, "You're my new hero." Now, when you don't care for my opinion on a player picking up the CB mid-run, I'm just another guy who,"likes to hear himself talk."

Lou Figueroa[/QUO
hey lou u and i see each other once a year.
why dont we save the insults and smart ass comments for when we are in same room together.
its way more exciting that way.
just so u dont misunderstand what im saying or cant read between the lines.
i would rather you insult me face to face because i hate typing.
i dont think u would be so antagonistic in person.
maybe im wrong

lol, John, if the subject of high runs came up while we were in the same room I'd express exactly the same opinion. The fact that you think I am being "so antagonistic" when that is not so, just goes to illustrate my point that you cannot judge things on this issue because you are too close it.

I look forward to seeing you in Tunica or Vegas this year and "exciting" times.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Help me out here -- I didn't see anybody question John's integrity. The only thing I read was where someone (Lou) happened to bring up for discussion the idea of cleaning/polishing the balls, including the cue ball during the course of a run. I think it's a legitimate subject to talk about. I really think you have to read deeply into Lou's post to think he's questioning John's integrity.

THANK YOU!

It's really getting a little too "Glee" here when otherwise smart guys can't interpret the difference in language when someone speaks about the integrity of a run vs an individual's integrity. I try to gear my language down here, but I ain't goin' below a third grade level of comprehension.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

good post and im not trying to be a jerk but in lous post hes totally questioning the integrity of my runs or me . lou and i have history so believe me i can pickup when hes insulting me. actually polishing the balls in middle of run might hurt me as now i have to get used to slickness again.
i dont polish balls or qball i simply wipe chalk off qball big difference.
its cool u like 14.1 its a fun game. hang in there . later

And what history would that be? The last time I saw you we joked about aiming systems and discussed a 14.1 lesson the next time I was out in California.

Lou Figueroa
guess that ain't happen'

 

[Snapshot9]

Thanks for thinking I'm only 49 years old. lol.

The point I was trying to make is that John's integrity was questioned about cleaning the cue ball during the run and it was brought up that Mosconi would never do that. First off how does anybody know that he didn't clean the cue ball during the 526, how does anybody know he didn't move an object ball by accident and keep on going. You stated that the video I showed was an exhibition and maybe they were only playing cue ball fouls only. If I'm not mistaken the 526 was during an exhibition so can we assume the rules were "relaxed" during that run?

As far as age goes what does being 78 years old have to do about playing by the rules and Mosconi's integrity during the match. If they were playing cue ball fouls only why didn't he tell Caras he moved the ball and ask him if wanted him to move it back? Did he do this during the 526?, maybe, maybe not. I guess if he was playing in a tournament at age 78 he would be allowed to play under a different set of rules because he is Mosconi and he is old. My point is why is John's integrity questioned and Willie's is not?

-Bill

Well, one reason would be because Willie had 15, countem 15, World Titles under his belt where referees were present to watch and govern the matches. Another reason is because I played the man in San Diego in '68 or '69, I forget which now, after I won a tournament, as an exhibition. I am aware that Mosconi was not well liked by some players, but THEY DID
RESPECT HIM, and what he had done. Every good Pool player in this country today has an ego, and it comes out now and then, some more than others.

I, certainly, do not mean to belittle John's accomplishment in any way, in fact I think it is admirable, but it is not 526, is it?

The main reason it has never been broken, besides having the talent to do it in the first place, is because of the formality of setting up to break a world record. There have to be witnesses, and today would have to have signed documents stating that someone actually broke the record. Just finding someone(s) willing to sit through over 35 racks of Straight Pool would be a feat unto itself. And what if the person trying to break the record missed, would he then start over? Disappointment would abound then, and witnesses would leave.

Maybe sometime in the future, someone will do it, but the record has stood for a long time, and close doesn't get the cigar...

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, I think Willie's 526 was BECAUSE of his exhibition schedule...
...rather than in spite of it.

Malcolm Gladwell writes on how the Beatles got their sound together...
..as a young band, they played zillions of cheap gigs at German nightclubs.

I keep whining at Justin for 1,000 point 14.1 matches on TAR...
...I'd much rather watch that instead of 9/10 ball where they're too
busy dumbing down the rules so nobody can run a 2-pack.

pt..<..has played on the 526 table

I suppose you could be right about the exhibitions, pt. It wouldn't be much different than being on the road...

But I think closer to the truth is that he was just a once in an era supernatural talent with an unmatched will to win. Having seen most of the current straight pool practitioners *not a one* comes close in terms of accuracy, speed, grace, or position play.

Lou Figueroa

 

[nobcitypool]

Since the exact conditions, circumstances, etc. can't ever be perfectly recreated, this is kind of like arguing whether Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson or Lebron James is the best. Who cares, they're all out of this world HOF'ers. All the players mentioned in this thread are great players, I don't see why it is ever necessary to demean one in an effort to build up another. It should be sufficient to simply acknowledge them all on their own merit.

 

[lfigueroa]

Since the exact conditions, circumstances, etc. can't ever be perfectly recreated, this is kind of like arguing whether Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson or Lebron James is the best. Who cares, they're all out of this world HOF'ers. All the players mentioned in this thread are great players, I don't see why it is ever necessary to demean one in an effort to build up another. It should be sufficient to simply acknowledge them all on their own merit.

Contrary to scurrilous charges, no one has been demeaned.

Lou Figueroa
yet

 

[AtLarge]

Thanks for thinking I'm only 49 years old. lol.

The point I was trying to make is that John's integrity was questioned about cleaning the cue ball during the run and it was brought up that Mosconi would never do that. First off how does anybody know that he didn't clean the cue ball during the 526, how does anybody know he didn't move an object ball by accident and keep on going. You stated that the video I showed was an exhibition and maybe they were only playing cue ball fouls only. If I'm not mistaken the 526 was during an exhibition so can we assume the rules were "relaxed" during that run?

As far as age goes what does being 78 years old have to do about playing by the rules and Mosconi's integrity during the match. If they were playing cue ball fouls only why didn't he tell Caras he moved the ball and ask him if wanted him to move it back? Did he do this during the 526?, maybe, maybe not. I guess if he was playing in a tournament at age 78 he would be allowed to play under a different set of rules because he is Mosconi and he is old. My point is why is John's integrity questioned and Willie's is not?

-Bill

I agree that your points are valid, Bill. And I'm certainly not questioning John's integrity; I think it's OK to clean off any hair/dirt/chalk whether a referee is present or not.

As to the age 78 thing, Willie wasn't playing tournaments at that age, and would not have been granted relaxed rules if he did. But at that age things shake; relaxed rules might have been used with Caras (but I see that they did have a referee for the game, so I don't know).

 

[AtLarge]

... also it took mosconi nearly 20 years playing 14.1 only on a 4x8 to run that many. ...

My understanding is that Willie generally used 9-footers in his exhibitions. But that room in Springfield, OH had no Brunswick (his employer) 9-footer, so he used a Brunswick 8-footer.

P.S. Willie was 40 at the time. And I think Eufemia was about the same age (41 I think) when he did his 625. Aren't you just about 40 now? The time is ripe, John.

 

[lfigueroa]

My understanding is that Willie generally used 9-footers in his exhibitions. But that room in Springfield, OH had no Brunswick (his employer) 9-footer, so he used a Brunswick 8-footer.

This is correct. There may have also been some 5x10's while he was touring with Greenleaf.

BTW, this is a good example of why you need knowledgable fans of the game, like AtLarge, who can put things in context in regards to the history and lore of the game and not just leave it to the players

Lou Figueroa

 

[arnaldo]

And what history would that be? The last time I saw you we joked about aiming systems and discussed a 14.1 lesson the next time I was out in California.

Lou Figueroa
guess that ain't happen'

--------------------------------------------------

Forgive my third party presumption, Lou since I didn't personally witness it, but could one element of "the history" (seemingly connoting a negatively remembered -- by John -- occasion) that John refers to, is in part related to a moment that you once described in a post either on AZB or RSB -- can't remember which -- where you were among a group of spectators watching John running some 14.1 racks and after one shot that most of the spectators vigorously applauded, you weren't applauding. John turned to face you and said: "Keep it down, Lou."

Like yourself I'm generally not moved to applaud 14.1 shots that simply aren't too extremely difficult. John for some reason was notably aware that you weren't applauding, and his "Keep it down, Lou" obviously reflected that. I believe you took the comment to be just a good-natured moment of levity on his part.

Or did it seem a moment of injured ego upon reflection? Who knows . . . it was quite a few years ago.

Arnaldo

 

[nb92]

My understanding is that Willie generally used 9-footers in his exhibitions. But that room in Springfield, OH had no Brunswick (his employer) 9-footer, so he used a Brunswick 8-footer.

I am sure the experts will correct if I am wrong but yes .. 4.5 x 9 was standard for championship play ( I believe the switch from 5 x 10 occurred sometime shortly after WWII) and most of the exhibitions occurred on 4.5 x 9 Brunswick tables.

So... the question I have is if the 4 x 8 was not the tournament/professional standard then why is the run recognized, witnessed or not? The second question would be a hypothetical, if John were under contract with Diamond, doing exhibitions and he did a run of 611 on a diamond bar box (no 4.5x9's being available), would that be the new record? or would that be the 3.5 x 7 record and 526 is the 4x8 record and is John's 400+ the 4.5 x 9 record (being on video)?

curious?

 

[john schmidt]

hi

Contrary to scurrilous charges, no one has been demeaned.

Lou Figueroa
yet [/QUfa
fair enough lou.u win.
honestly everything u have said is flattering because i know where everything u say is stemming from. ive read a little about human phsycology.
i wont say what it is because it doesnt improve things between u and i . but i understand completely why a guy like u would give me a hard time.

all in all i take it as a compliment . the more negative,argumentative,demeaning u become the more it validates my point.
thanks lou

 

[lfigueroa]

--------------------------------------------------

Forgive my third party presumption, Lou since I didn't personally witness it, but could one element of "the history" (seemingly connoting a negatively remembered -- by John -- occasion) that John refers to, is in part related to a moment that you once described in a post either on AZB or RSB -- can't remember which -- where you were among a group of spectators watching John running some 14.1 racks and after one shot that most of the spectators vigorously applauded, you weren't applauding. John turned to face you and said: "Keep it down, Lou."

Like yourself I'm generally not moved to applaud 14.1 shots that simply aren't too extremely difficult. John for some reason was notably aware that you weren't applauding, and his "Keep it down, Lou" obviously reflected that. I believe you took the comment to be just a good-natured moment of levity on his part.

Or did it seem a moment of injured ego upon reflection? Who knows . . . it was quite a few years ago.

Arnaldo

Holy cow, Arnaldo! That's gotta be it!

i think it was John making an attempt at one of the 14.1 Challenges. I don't recall the shot in question, but I do remember thinking, "Why is everyone applauding? It wasn't that tough a shot for a player of John's caliber." I was pretty sure John was just making a funny at the time, but now it's clear he was impugning my 14.1 knowledge and ability to appreciate his mastery of the game. (I think, in hind sight, he may have also been calling my integrity into question...)

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Great memory, BTW.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Contrary to scurrilous charges, no one has been demeaned.

Lou Figueroa
yet [/QUfa
fair enough lou.u win.
honestly everything u have said is flattering because i know where everything u say is stemming from. ive read a little about human phsycology.
i wont say what it is because it doesnt improve things between u and i . but i understand completely why a guy like u would give me a hard time.

all in all i take it as a compliment . the more negative,argumentative,demeaning u become the more it validates my point.
thanks lou

No, no -- you win, John.

Having minored in psychology I totally get it ;-)

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Back on topic: does anyone know what the Europeans have been up to lately in the high run department? Seems like a long time since we've heard any noise on this front from across the pond.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Cuebuddy]

Back on topic: does anyone know what the Europeans have been up to lately in the high run department? Seems like a long time since we've heard any noise on this front from across the pond.

Lou Figueroa

I have not heard anything about long runs from the Europeans this last year.
I am still trying to digest that our own pt109 has played on the 526 table