526

[CreeDo]

THANK YOU!

It's really getting a little too "Glee" here when otherwise smart guys can't interpret the difference in language when someone speaks about the integrity of a run vs an individual's integrity.

How can an otherwise smart guy NOT expect john to take offense?

The thread wasn't about polishing, but you went out of your way to bring up that 'related note'. This was shortly after John S. chimed in. I'm pretty sure you're aware that John has been criticised in the past for cleaning the balls.

"Gosh I had no idea John might be sensitive to accusations that he greases the balls"?

Come on now.

 

[lfigueroa]

I have not heard anything about long runs from the Europeans this last year.
I am still trying to digest that our own pt109 has played on the 526 table

Yes, that's pretty cool.

Here's another: a friend, occasional poster, and pool writer extraordinaire, JD Dolan, is writing a book on Greenleaf. We had breakfast together a couple of DCCs ago and he was telling me about his research that included visiting the site of Greenleaf's long defunct pool room. It was a walk-up, like many rooms of that era, and he sees an old pool table light sitting there all dusty and abandoned. He goes downstairs and asks the owner of the property (some other business now) if he can buy the light and she says he can just have it.

One of Greenleaf's lights.

Lou Figueroa

 

[CreeDo]

Back on topic: does anyone know what the Europeans have been up to lately in the high run department? Seems like a long time since we've heard any noise on this front from across the pond.

Lou Figueroa

Been a year now since Niels ran his 416, I haven't heard of anything approaching that recently.

 

[lfigueroa]

How can an otherwise smart guy NOT expect john to take offense?

The thread wasn't about polishing, but you went out of your way to bring up that 'related note'. This was shortly after John S. chimed in. I'm pretty sure you're aware that John has been criticised in the past for cleaning the balls.

"Gosh I had no idea John might be sensitive to accusations that he greases the balls"?

Come on now.

The topic is the 526. It's not much of a stretch to discuss current attempts to break it. So what I did was to voice *my opinion* on some of the techniques being deployed by some of the guys attempting to break the record, and which was echoed by several others.

Besides, since I'm not a 300 ball runner I have no idea as to why John or any other player doing the same stuff would take offense, since my opinion means so little to them and they would rather listen to each other anyways.

Lou Figueroa
John greases the balls?!

 

[measureman]

Yes, that's pretty cool.

Here's another: a friend, occasional poster, and pool writer extraordinaire, JD Dolan, is writing a book on Greenleaf. We had breakfast together a couple of DCCs ago and he was telling me about his research that included visiting the site of Greenleaf's long defunct pool room. It was a walk-up, like many rooms of that era, and he sees an old pool table light sitting there all dusty and abandoned. He goes downstairs and asks the owner of the property (some other business now) if he can buy the light and she says he can just have it.

One of Greenleaf's lights.

Lou Figueroa

I going off topic for a second here.
Lou-here is a bit of Greenleaf trivia that an old time very good pool player who competed in the Greenleaf era told me. He said that Greenleaf did not play better then everyone else but that he played better safes and almost always beat them to the shot. True? I don't know.
Just something he told me.

 

[djkx1]

No, no -- you win, John.

Having minored in psychology I totally get it ;-)

Lou Figueroa

With you having minored in psychology I am curious to know what you think has caused you to be such an argumentative person.
Were you a middle child or otherwise ignored by your parents? Perhaps teased by classmates in kindergarten? Somehow I think you believed someones lies about you and that has had an impact on your outlook. Maybe not. I did'nt minor in anything.

As far as high runs go I think John has proved to be near or at the top of todays 14.1 list. I would love to see the top players try to beat the record. Whether it was accomplished or not it is fair to say that a lot of great pool would be recorded. Hopefully someday the incentives will be at a level that will motivate the elite to try.

 

[lfigueroa]

With you having minored in psychology I am curious to know what you think has caused you to be such an argumentative person.
Were you a middle child or otherwise ignored by your parents? Perhaps teased by classmates in kindergarten? Somehow I think you believed someones lies about you and that has had an impact on your outlook. Maybe not. I did'nt minor in anything.

As far as high runs go I think John has proved to be near or at the top of todays 14.1 list. I would love to see the top players try to beat the record. Whether it was accomplished or not it is fair to say that a lot of great pool would be recorded. Hopefully someday the incentives will be at a level that will motivate the elite to try.

No, actually I was the older of two.

And what I learned in college, as well as later in life, was that there is nothing wrong with good honest discussion and debate, particularly on those subjects you are passionate about...

Ever learn that one?

Lou Figueroa
just askin'

 

[arnaldo]

I going off topic for a second here.
Lou-here is a bit of Greenleaf trivia that an old time very good pool player who competed in the Greenleaf era told me. He said that Greenleaf did not play better then everyone else but that he played better safes and almost always beat them to the shot. True? I don't know.
Just something he told me.

------------------------------------------------
Sorry, MM but in spite of the understandably dimmed by time recollection of the old timer, the "better safes" and "always beating them to the shot" is actually the frequently quoted overall characterization not of Greenleaf, but rather of Irv Crane's mind-numbing defensive play against any real threats to victory on his own part.

Regarding Greenleaf's not playing better than everyone else, that's clearly another mis-recollection by the old timer. Greenleaf was identified by Jimmy Caras, Cowboy Jimmy Moore, and several other top-level contemporaries as "hands down, the greatest position player of that era, always getting Whitey within a quarter-inch of perfect, every shot."

That position play aspect of Ralph's game clearly became the aspired-to threshold that influenced the rest of then-very-young Willie Mosconi's career after nationally touring with his role model. (Willie in fact won nearly half of that tour's matches against Greenleaf.) Remarkable for a player in only his early twenties.

Arnaldo

 

[lfigueroa]

I going off topic for a second here.
Lou-here is a bit of Greenleaf trivia that an old time very good pool player who competed in the Greenleaf era told me. He said that Greenleaf did not play better then everyone else but that he played better safes and almost always beat them to the shot. True? I don't know.
Just something he told me.

MM, that does not sync with what I know about Greenleaf.

What I have read is that Greenleaf was an offense monster, getting the CB just above the spot and dismembering rack after rack, using the bottom four pockets. Mosconi learned from that touring with Greenleaf, but then went on to modify Greenleaf's approach and get the CB closer to the center of the table and then use all six pockets, keeping the CB in the center of the table, a little higher than Greenleaf preferred. Greenleaf would always go for, and was a favorite to make, the shot.

Crane.was the guy that could win a tournament running 30's and 40's and 50's, and playing safe after safe.

Lou Figueroa

 

[pdcue]

MM, that does not sync with what I know about Greenleaf.

What I have read is that Greenleaf was an offense monster, getting the CB just above the spot and dismembering rack after rack, using the bottom four pockets. Mosconi learned from that touring with Greenleaf, but then went on to modify Greenleaf's approach and get the CB closer to the center of the table and then use all six pockets, keeping the CB in the center of the table, a little higher than Greenleaf preferred. Greenleaf would always go for, and was a favorite to make, the shot.

Crane.was the guy that could win a tournament running 30's and 40's and 50's, and playing safe after safe.

Lou Figueroa

Two related fun facts - sorry can't remember exact sources - both from
creditable articles or books

1. A commentary on Greenleaf - in a championship tourney he pocketed
a total of 1250 balls - total misses 4.

2. Mosconi himself acknowledged the influence of Greenleaf on his game.
He pointed out that Ralf usually played position 2 - 3 feet from the OB.
Willie attributed his success to the fact the he cut that distance in half.

Dale

 

[Ratta]

Thanks for thinking I'm only 49 years old. lol.

The point I was trying to make is that John's integrity was questioned about cleaning the cue ball during the run and it was brought up that Mosconi would never do that. First off how does anybody know that he didn't clean the cue ball during the 526, how does anybody know he didn't move an object ball by accident and keep on going. You stated that the video I showed was an exhibition and maybe they were only playing cue ball fouls only. If I'm not mistaken the 526 was during an exhibition so can we assume the rules were "relaxed" during that run?

As far as age goes what does being 78 years old have to do about playing by the rules and Mosconi's integrity during the match. If they were playing cue ball fouls only why didn't he tell Caras he moved the ball and ask him if wanted him to move it back? Did he do this during the 526?, maybe, maybe not. I guess if he was playing in a tournament at age 78 he would be allowed to play under a different set of rules because he is Mosconi and he is old. My point is why is John's integrity questioned and Willie's is not?

-Bill

Well chosen words- as usual Bill

 

[Johnnyt]

There are a dozen or so players that can break 526 on a 8' table with bucket pockets if the money is right. Johnnyt

 

[lfigueroa]

There are a dozen or so players that can break 526 on a 8' table with bucket pockets if the money is right. Johnnyt

Perhaps, though the record has stood for 50+ years.

Typically, Mosconi would walk into a room and take two warm up racks. My memory is a little fuzzy, but I think he ran the 526 on his second inning. So I guess all these pros who could break the record would be willing to two warm up racks on a strange table and then two innings at the run?

Also, just wondering: does the "dozen or so players" include the guys who need the balls polished every few racks so their break shots pop the balls wide open like a bag of spilt popcorn?

Lou Figueroa

 

[iba7467]

Perhaps, though the record has stood for 50+ years.

Typically, Mosconi would walk into a room and take two warm up racks. My memory is a little fuzzy, but I think he ran the 526 on his second inning. So I guess all these pros who could break the record would be willing to two warm up racks on a strange table and then two innings at the run?

Also, just wondering: does the "dozen or so players" include the guys who need the balls polished every few racks so their break shots pop the balls wide open like a bag of spilt popcorn?

Lou Figueroa

Lou,

I doubt you would dispute the fact that with enough financial incentive there are players you would not bet against running 527. You also mention how Willie did this after just a couple warm up racks and two innings, but this is not really the case. He played rack after rack as a career by doing exhibitions. He was not running balls ice cold, he was clocking in and going to work.

Modern pool players do not have this luxury. I do not know what John, Thorston, Efren, Shane, etc. would be capable of given constant scheduled matches playing straight pool. I give much credit to Mosconi's run but do not think any more of it than a player running huge packages (more than 10) of a rotation game.

I believe it comes down to opportunity and incentive. If you play basketball at a reasonable level, one day you will shoot 75+% from the field and score 30+ points. As a great example, baseball has more games than any other major sport. This affords baseball players with the most opportunity for long record streaks purely because they have more opportunity to do so.

 

[john schmidt]

Perhaps, though the record has stood for 50+ years.

Typically, Mosconi would walk into a room and take two warm up racks. My memory is a little fuzzy, but I think he ran the 526 on his second inning. So I guess all these pros who could break the record would be willing to two warm up racks on a strange table and then two innings at the run?

Also, just wondering: does the "dozen or so players" include the guys who need the balls polished every few racks so their break shots pop the balls wide open like a bag of spilt popcorn?

Lou Figueroa

do u know mosconi never ran over 150 in all those 1500 point matches.todays players would have.
a guy like neils for example would have spotted him at 9ball,one pocket,and been a close match at 14.1.
i understand your kinda hanging on to memories but today players are better. its the same in every sport lou.

also mosconi demanded new cloth and he waxed the balls.
marop told me that himself he was there. mosconi would not play without perfect conditions.
he sounds like a smart guy.

 

[john schmidt]

hi

Lou,

I doubt you would dispute the fact that with enough financial incentive there are players you would not bet against running 527. You also mention how Willie did this after just a couple warm up racks and two innings, but this is not really the case. He played rack after rack as a career by doing exhibitions. He was not running balls ice cold, he was clocking in and going to work.

Modern pool players do not have this luxury. I do not know what John, Thorston, Efren, Shane, etc. would be capable of given constant scheduled matches playing straight pool. I give much credit to Mosconi's run but do not think any more of it than a player running huge packages (more than 10) of a rotation game.

I believe it comes down to opportunity and incentive. If you play basketball at a reasonable level, one day you will shoot 75+% from the field and score 30+ points. As a great example, baseball has more games than any other major sport. This affords baseball players with the most opportunity for long record streaks purely because they have more opportunity to do so.

good post my thoughts exactly.trust me lou knows your right ,lous not dumb. hes just trying to irratate me.no biggie ive been dealing with jealous haters for years. mosconi had em too.
lou instead of spending the whole day hating why dont you go play pool instead of write about it.
then maybe you could become a great player and get some of your own haters lol oh wait you have played your whole life and still cant play.
arguing with a great player is as close as you will get to becoming one it looks like u better stick with what u know. hating on azbilliards. fire away lou

 

[Bob Jewett]

... also mosconi demanded new cloth and he waxed the balls.
marop told me that himself he was there. mosconi would not play without perfect conditions.
he sounds like a smart guy.

He knew what it took to run 100s night after night. He didn't just wax the balls, he took his own set around with him. I'm pretty sure his cue ball had the amazing action reported at least partly due to the cloth and the wax.

So, I think Lou's complaint is more than a little silly.

 

[john schmidt]

hi

He knew what it took to run 100s night after night. He didn't just wax the balls, he took his own set around with him. I'm pretty sure his cue ball had the amazing action reported at least partly due to the cloth and the wax.

So, I think Lou's complaint is more than a little silly.

thank u bob for chiming in.
seriously folks for those that dont know.
bob jewett has about a 180 iq,is a very very good player has run near or over 100 and basically ive never disagreed with anything bob has ever said in 10 years.
spot on bob as usual.
your the smartest person i know and to be honest know as much or more about pool then me or anybody else i know.
thing about lou even when hes wrong and everybody knows it including him,he will still try to get in the last word trying to sound right lol. watch any minute now he will post more b.s. to hear himself talk . sometimes in life its easier to just admit your wrong and stfu

 

[Toncam]

John, you have run over 400 balls twice ? Thats awesome and a tremendous accomplishment. Hell im impressed when i see someone run 100 or even close to it.
I play straight pool and i cant get over 30 balls so to hear about someone doing what youre capable of doing is great.
Good luck to you and dont let this stuff irritate you, it means less than nothing.

 

[measureman]

------------------------------------------------
Sorry, MM but in spite of the understandably dimmed by time recollection of the old timer, the "better safes" and "always beating them to the shot" is actually the frequently quoted overall characterization not of Greenleaf, but rather of Irv Crane's mind-numbing defensive play against any real threats to victory on his own part.

Regarding Greenleaf's not playing better than everyone else, that's clearly another mis-recollection by the old timer. Greenleaf was identified by Jimmy Caras, Cowboy Jimmy Moore, and several other top-level contemporaries as "hands down, the greatest position player of that era, always getting Whitey within a quarter-inch of perfect, every shot."

That position play aspect of Ralph's game clearly became the aspired-to threshold that influenced the rest of then-very-young Willie Mosconi's career after nationally touring with his role model. (Willie in fact won nearly half of that tour's matches against Greenleaf.) Remarkable for a player in only his early twenties.

Arnaldo

I don't think the old timer (he was about 64 years old or so at the time) had a dimmed memory. He told me this in the early 60's. Maybe it was a case of sour grapes. I found the statement rather odd at the time but out of respect I just accepted it.He was teaching me to play so I just kept my mouth shut. I was only like 15 or so at the time.