7 ball, Allen Hopkins said it was created originally...

alstl

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
...because they wanted to find a game that Minnesota Fats could beat Willie Mosconi at.

I remember watching a game years ago on tv between Fats and Mosconi, don't remember what they were playing or even who won, I think it was Mosconi but not sure. What I do remember is that Fats had Mosconi fuming with the trash talk. At one point he said Mosconi could only play good with house money on the line, and Mosconi pulled a wad of money out of his pocket to show Fats that he would play for his own money.
 
alstl said:
...because they wanted to find a game that Minnesota Fats could beat Willie Mosconi at.

I remember watching a game years ago on tv between Fats and Mosconi, don't remember what they were playing or even who won, I think it was Mosconi but not sure. What I do remember is that Fats had Mosconi fuming with the trash talk. At one point he said Mosconi could only play good with house money on the line, and Mosconi pulled a wad of money out of his pocket to show Fats that he would play for his own money.
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The game of 7-ball was invented in the late 70's. It's biggest attraction was that the 7-ball could only be made in the side of the table chosen by the non-breaking player. So if Player A breaks the balls, then Player B chooses which side of the table is his (for the 7-ball to go into).

To my knowledge, the first time it was nationally exposed was during the Great Pool Shootout I when Fats & Mosconi played on the Wild World of Sports. The game suggests that it meant that running a rack may have had to include some "moving" or "banking," two areas that Fats may have had some kind of advantage. It didn't happen. Fats never won a set of 7-ball against Mosconi in all the times they played AFAIK.

The abomination we see on TV as "ESPN 7-ball" is not what I played when I was growing up.

Fred <~~~ hates that damned abomination
 
Cornerman said:
The game of 7-ball was invented in the late 70's. It's biggest attraction was that the 7-ball could only be made in the side of the table chosen by the non-breaking player. So if Player A breaks the balls, then Player B chooses which side of the table is his (for the 7-ball to go into).

To my knowledge, the first time it was nationally exposed was during the Great Pool Shootout I when Fats & Mosconi played on the Wild World of Sports. The game suggests that it meant that running a rack may have had to include some "moving" or "banking," two areas that Fats may have had some kind of advantage. It didn't happen. Fats never won a set of 7-ball against Mosconi in all the times they played AFAIK.

The abomination we see on TV as "ESPN 7-ball" is not what I played when I was growing up.

Fred <~~~ hates that damned abomination
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I guess Fats was talking trash because he figured his only chance was to piss Mosconi off. He did piss him off but I guess it didn't do him any good.
 
I might be

mistaken, but I always heard that Jackie Gleason, before
show business, was as good as Minnesota Fats, and was
known as 'New York Fats'.

And I heard that Minnesota Fats talked his way into to
winning as much as beating the opponents.
 
Snapshot9 said:
I always heard that Jackie Gleason, before
show business, was as good as Minnesota Fats, and was
known as 'New York Fats'.

And I heard that Minnesota Fats talked his way into to
winning as much as beating the opponents.
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Snapshot, Jackie Gleason was regarded as being a fairly decent pool player. Rudolph Wanderone was known as "New York Fats" for years. When "The Hustler" was released and became a success, that's when Wanderone took the name of "Minnesota Fats" & thus began the endless arguments between himself & Walter Tevis that I'm sure you've heard or read about.

Today on ESPN Classic, they aired a match between Wanderone & "Cowboy" Jimmy Moore from the second Legends of Pocket Billiards tournament. During the course of the nine ball portion of the match, Moore got annoyed with Wanderone's constant talking when he was trying to make his shot and finally complained about it after which Wanderone seemed rather reserved & backed off his schtick. I also noticed that Wanderone didn't even shake Moore's hand after he lost in the eight ball match tie break, which was in my opinion very unsportsmanlike.

As far as Wanderone being "good", that's a subject that's been debated as long as I can remember. Most high echelon players will say he wasn't; Mosconi certainly didn't have any respect for him whatsoever. From what I've observed about Wanderone's game, his positional play was very reckless & he lucked his way through many layouts. However, I also think he did seem to possess decent to good banking skills. Ultimately I would have to say he was a fairly decent showman but that's all.

Wanderone also released an instructional video a few years before his passing that was filmed at Gameland (if I remember the name of the place correctly) in Nashville. After I watched it, I felt it was good for beginning players but offered little else beyond that unless you were a fan of his schtick.

I also seem to recall that when Wanderone received a merit award from the BCA for his work in promoting pool that his acceptance speech was not well received. In fact, I remember hearing that several attendees walked out while he was giving it.

I will say this for the man, I feel that he did help bring pool more into the limelight. And I believe he's one of the few pool players listed in the IMDB website database to this day.
 
Mr. Vader,
IIRC, didn't Fats play Waylon Jennings a few games of 8 ball on that aweful instructional video?

Fats was a fairly decent player. He was not in the class of players like Cowboy Jimmy Moore, Willie Mosconi, Jimmy Caras, or Irving Crane, or even close and I think he knew that; he'd never admit it, but he knew it. He was a good shotmaker, and excellent storyteller (most of which were suspect) but he is by far the most well known showman the game of pool has ever had. His notariety has far exceeded that of players that have twice his skill. Fats didn't have to look very far to find his greatest marketing tool - it was his own big mouth. I say that afectionately. I ran into him in Memphis about a year before he died, and sadly he didn't look very well. Even then (according to him) "Nobody evvah beat Fatty fawda cash!" He was original, thats why he was so special.
 
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Dont know how many of you were actually around, but sounds like most of you dont know the real type of person he was. He was a showman, yes, and a storyteller, he could be a real gentleman or a foul mouth, whatever he felt like. He put on a show until the very end, still having many of you believe that he was only a "B" level player. His job was to go on television and to fool everyone, to lose, to lose, to lose. To make himself the enemy, by talking and annoying his good mannered opponents. They became the good guy, Fats became the enemy, and although his jokes and stories pleased the crowd, they wanted the "real" players to win, because after a few appearances on TV, the entire world knew that Fatty couldn't play like them. Or that's what he had you all believe, and that's what you'd like to believe. But he put on the act of a "B" player and advertised himself on national television in the name of the dollar sign. He made so much money gambling it was almost pitiful that not very many people caught on. His act made that man very wealthy, and what a great act he had, to continue to fool people like you to this day.
 
Blackjack said:
Mr. Vader,
IIRC, didn't Fats play Waylon Jennings a few games of 8 ball on that aweful instructional video?
Click to expand...

Yes he did Mr. Blackjack. They also played some nine ball using some very odd rules that I've not seen used anywhere else. Afterwards Wanderone did some trick shots for the audience.

It's amusing that you bring that video up. I remember he went into a derogatory diatribe when he was talking about nine ball and the (what he called) "young" players. Basically what he said was that they had "dose flairy brakes" with the "q ball hoppin' awl ovur da place." He also made criticisms of their stance, how they played their respective games, etc. I'll have watch the tape again sometime as I don't recall everything he said.

In any case, like him or hate him, he sure knew how to tell some stories regardless if they were true or a bunch of crap. He was a good showman & knew how to put on a good show.
 
You got it.

Blackjack said:
Mr. Vader,
IIRC, didn't Fats play Waylon Jennings a few games of 8 ball on that aweful instructional video?

Fats was a fairly decent player. He was not in the class of players like Cowboy Jimmy Moore, Willie Mosconi, Jimmy Caras, or Irving Crane, or even close and I think he knew that; he'd never admit it, but he knew it. He was a good shotmaker, and excellent storyteller (most of which were suspect) but he is by far the most well known showman the game of pool has ever had. His notariety has far exceeded that of players that have twice his skill. Fats didn't have to look very far to find his greatest marketing tool - it was his own big mouth. I say that afectionately. I ran into him in Memphis about a year before he died, and sadly he didn't look very well. Even then (according to him) "Nobody evvah beat Fatty fawda cash!" He was original, thats why he was so special.
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Exactly right, Blackjack. Circa 1975: Big tournament in St. Louis, all the top players were there. First-The Miz Second-Buddy Hall Third-Wade Crane. Fatty is there pimping his new line of Minnisota Fats pool tables and other items. Jimmy "Fly Boy" Spears and Clyde Childress are playing one pocket. The bet had been raised to $1K per game and Fly is big loser. Fatty, on his way out the door, shouts at the crowd that had come just to see him. "Here you have Fly Boy and Clyde. They are playing for $1K a game. Now if they were playin me,,,,,,,,,, they would have to be betting $5K per game." All the Fatty fans screamed with laughter. Fly Boy is usually calm and cool but he was too far loser to have to be listening to Fatty's loud mouth. None of the top players ever challenged Fatty to play, first because they knew he wouldn't and second they didn't want to embarass him. After all, he had put a lot of money into the game of pool. Fly Boy reached into his pocket and threw about $10K on the table and told Fatty to jump his no gambling ass up here and he could bet it all, one game. All Fatty could do was say, "You don't want to play me, Jr." and walk toward the door.

Fly Boy then yells, loud enough that everyone in the room could hear, "There goes the legendary, "Mini-Scrotum-Fats".
 
hemicudas said:
Fly Boy then yells, loud enough that everyone in the room could hear, "There goes the legendary, "Mini-Scrotum-Fats".
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:D :D :D

LMAO!! Thanks for the history!
 
cuetechasaurus said:
His act made that man very wealthy, and what a great act he had, to continue to fool people like you to this day.
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You're right. He did a darn good job of fooling a lot of people. I was very convinced the last time I saw him that he couldn't rub two nickels together. What a con! What a kidder! He had us all fooled. Truth be told, the end for Fatty wasnt a pretty picture at all. If he had a lot of money he did a darn good job hiding it, losing it, or forgetting where he put it. As far as "playing the B player role" I believe that against guys like Moore and Mosconi we are all "B" players. I played Fatty a time or two (a persistent talker and a staller) and I also had the honor of calling Jimmy Moore my friend and playing him on a regular basis. No comparison at all between the two. I'm saying that and believe me, I liked Fatty.

Moore played well right up to the end. I remember Moore winning an 8 ball tournament in El Paso in 1989 (he was like 78 years old) - I was one of his victims in that tournament (Randyg also played in this tournament) and the truth is that nobody could beat Jimmy Moore. This was a large tournament - not a turkey shoot. Moore was always the man to beat. Fats did not have a reputation like that at all.

Mr. Vader,
Wanderone hated 9 ball and thought the game was a complete joke. He was very upset that 9 ball was popular and 14.1 was fading away. He was very angry about that. He was not alone in his opinion. He was a NYC 14.1 player. I'm sure he was more than competent at playing straight pool with anyone - even at the highest level. Fats loved straight pool. 9 ball was a different story however. He was actually very outspoken about his displeasure. I was not present at his HOF induction speech, I can only imagine what he might have said ,and that brings a smile to my face. God Bless him.
 
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Blackjack said:
Mr. Vader,
Wanderone hated 9 ball and thought the game was a complete joke. He was very upset that 9 ball was popular and 14.1 was fading away. He was very angry about that. He was not alone in his opinion. He was a NYC 14.1 player. I'm sure he was more than competent at playing straight pool with anyone - even at the highest level. Fats loved straight pool. 9 ball was a different story however. He was actually very outspoken about his displeasure. I was not present at his HOF induction speech, I can only imagine what he might have said ,and that brings a smile to my face. God Bless him.
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Mr. Blackjack, many of the well-known players of that era were upset about nine ball becoming the game of choice. I remember what Mosconi had to say about it; he said "All you do is hit the damned balls and the nine flies right in. Where's the skill in that?"

As I recall, Wanderone's game of choice was one pocket. Additionally, I believe he was one of the people responsible for getting the Jansco brothers to kick off the Stardust hustler jamborees in Johnston City. I believe he placed fourth in the inaugural one pocket event if I remember correctly.

Also, there was a player by the name of Jack White who reminded me of Wanderone's mannerisms & dress during his trick shot shows & exhibitions. He had been retired for some time but it is my understanding that he is now out of retirement & is performing exhibitions again.

Finally as a personal aside, I see this is my hundreth post on this forum. I never thought I'd see the hundreth post mark Mr. Blackjack as I don't come on to these internet forums very much.
 
Thanks ...

I enjoyed those stories too. I know it is said that Fats never
worked an honest day in his life, just played pool and talked
his game.
 
I saw a video of a match between Fats and Mosconi. I think it was seven ball, 3 races to 7.

Fats made several misses that a D grader would blush over, but somehow he won the last 2 sets, seemingly missing shape on every second shot and banking his way to victory.

Mosconi did not look happy at all and commented that this was the best he had ever seen Fats play. Fats looked like more likely to make a bank than a 3 foot straight in shot. A very unorthodox player.
 
For those who are interested in hearing about some stories of pool's history, you should take a look at the 14.1 match that Mosconi & Caras played back in 1991; both players had some interesting tales to tell. I believe Accu-Stats still has the tape in stock. If memory serves, that exhibition match was one of Mosconi's last public matches.

Also, if there are those out there who are interested in reading up on the original seven ball rules, Steve Mizerak had them in one of his earlier books that was published in the early 80's. It was titled, "Steve Mizerak's Pocket Billiard Tips and Trick Shots".

There was one item that Steve noted regarding the game of seven ball in its original rule format. It was, "The game is so new that the pros are still debating whether or not it is an advantage to break".

After some consideration, I finally decided that the only advantage in breaking was that if you made the seven on the break then you win the game just as if you had broken the nine in when playing nine ball. However, if the game ball winds up deep in a pocket after the break, the breaker simply will not be able to win as the incoming player will pick the side of the table with the pocket that the seven came to rest in. This may be why I never saw it played on television that often, aside from the Legends tournaments.

If neither of the aforementioned occurences happen, the game has a one pocket similarity in that you had to make the game ball on your side of the table. It can draw the game's length out in some instances but I think it can make for some interesting situations.
 
The 'Old Schoolers'...

Long live the Legend & Lore of The Fat Man!...loved watching him, loved listening to him weave stories even more...to be a fly on the wall in a room with The Legends!...watch every time I can catch them on ESPNC...I know Fats wasn't the player Mr. Mosconi, The Deacon, Cowboy etc...were but he was firing in some shots during some of those matches!...they all were...imagine, at that age!...anyway could watch the Legends all day long, I only wish they would all relate stories of the Old Days...don't forget where we come from...they were Dignitaries, Showman and Hustlers...

God Bless Them All,

lest we forget Cisero Murphy...The Great One

Thx BJ, Vader, Hemicudas, (show us the car man)... :D
 
vader93490 said:
For those who are interested in hearing about some stories of pool's history, you should take a look at the 14.1 match that Mosconi & Caras played back in 1991; both players had some interesting tales to tell. I believe Accu-Stats still has the tape in stock. If memory serves, that exhibition match was one of Mosconi's last public matches.
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Hey Vader!

What match was this? The one at Williamson's?

Barbara
 
Barbara said:
Hey Vader!

What match was this? The one at Williamson's?

Barbara
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Yes Barbara. The match was filmed at the Williamson Restaurant in Horsham, Pennsylvania on August 10, 1991. Commentary was done by Pat Fleming & Mike Massey. I checked the Accu-Stats website and it is still available for $29.95.

I thought of something else as I was going through my tapes looking for the aforementioned Mosconi match to remember where it was filmed. If a similar Legends tournament were put together, who would everyone like to see participate in it?
 
well Fats didn't really like straight pool, he was a one pocket player. In fact he was the one that started the wide open playing style in one pocket. not much defense just quick 8 and outs. He also liked to gable for big pots and high rolled people and did very well. that era you speak of wasn't mad or angry that 9 ball was starting to catch on in fact 9 ball was big in whimpy's days and always has been a game to gamble on only second to one pocket. back then it was all about what you could gamble on and give up weight and win the most. the only reason a lot of players back then went to tournement play was because pool rooms around the country were drying up of action and they couldn't make it on the road anymore. when fats was young he was a player, the older he got he just made money off his mouth but he was better than a B players is all i'm geting at i guess..........
 
ccn7 said:
"mosconi ran 526 balls without missing i made 527 banks" he was playin lassiter i believe then he looks at lassiter and says and you know it.no one said if it was fact or fiction , your right no one really ever wanted to really call fats on anything. lots of good fats stories still going around. thanks again guys
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I think everyone should get their hands on a copy of:

Billiards: Legends and Lies.... John Grissom

Hustler Days... RA Dyer

Both would and should give everyone a different level of respect for the pool player, Rudolf Wanderone.

Fred
 
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