8 Ball Rules BCA

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Dawgie

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The break is made and no balls are pocketed. The opposing player is called from across the room to come to the table to play. He comes to the table and starts to pick up the balls, two to be exact ( this is after the break). He is told this is the real game. He puts the balls back where he thought they were.

This is obviously a foul, at least. Is it loss of game?
 
Dawgie said:
The break is made and no balls are pocketed. The opposing player is called from across the room to come to the table to play. He comes to the table and starts to pick up the balls, two to be exact ( this is after the break). He is told this is the real game. He puts the balls back where he thought they were.

This is obviously a foul, at least. Is it loss of game?
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No, the new BCA rule 14.6 covers this one.
"If a player picks up more than one ball from the table at a time, it is a MAJOR foul and the penalty is three fast strikes with the opponents cue stick across the back."
He'll never do that again! :D
 
WesleyW said:
It's not a loss of game. Only if it's on purpose (unsportsmanlike).
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The problem is that it was clearly his intention as he came to the table to pick up the balls and he did as he intended. He was clearly confused, but he did not touch the balls out of clumsiness. He touched them out of confusion and inattention. I don't think the rules are clear on what to do in this situation. I think it is unsportsmanlike to pay so little attention to your match that you have no idea whether a rack has started.
 
First off.... why did you break the balls when him away from the table? Did he rack the balls and then walk across the room? Was this in the middle of a set or just one game? I just don't think there is enough information here to really point the finger.

If your in the middle of a set, he racks and walks away.... then comes back and does this, yes, its a foul.... and very stupid.

If you have yet to play a game or it was racked by someone else and you just break.... then I point the finger at you.

If you're in the middle of running balls and he walks away, he is asking for trouble. But if he doesn't even know the game has started, then I don't seem him in the fault.
 
I would call it a foul and warn him to pay attention to the table. If he is not at the table again after you miss a shot, he will automatically lost the game by unsportsmanlike.
 
Bob Jewett said:
The problem is that it was clearly his intention as he came to the table to pick up the balls and he did as he intended. He was clearly confused, but he did not touch the balls out of clumsiness. He touched them out of confusion and inattention. I don't think the rules are clear on what to do in this situation. I think it is unsportsmanlike to pay so little attention to your match that you have no idea whether a rack has started.
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I agree that the rules are somewhat unclear but in the WSRs, unsportsmanlike conduct is specifically limited to "intentional" conduct. In the example given, as you point out, the conduct was clearly not intentional.

In addition, to be subject to the rule, the conduct must bring disrepute upon the game AND change the outcome such that the game cannot be continued fairly.

None of those criteria are present here so the rule, by its own terms, does not apply.

True, certain of the EXAMPLES apply such as (b) changing the position of the balls except by a legal shot...but again the examples are merely examples and without intentional conduct, the examples are specifically not pertinent.

As to inattention, brief "time outs" are permissible if not by rule then by custom and we don't know if the absent player was on such a break. More importantly, the breaker knew or should have known that the opponent was not present and never should have broken the balls in the first place so there is equal blame on both sides.

Regards,
Jim

6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.
 
cleary said:
First off.... why did you break the balls when him away from the table? Did he rack the balls and then walk across the room? Was this in the middle of a set or just one game? I just don't think there is enough information here to really point the finger.
QUOTE]

With the new BCA rules you would have racked your own rack. Why would you proceed to start playing the game with your opponent on the other side of the room?
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Under BCA rules? or BCA League Rules.. these are two different sets of rules.

Which one were you playing under?
 
Let me try to be more clear. I just thought there was a rule that would apply specifically to this situation. So here goes:

1. We play BCA League

2. We were well into our second set of games.

3. Each person that breaks also racks for him/her self.

I was told it was my turn to play by the opposing team cap't. I went directly to pick up and rack the balls. I then proceeded to break and came up dry. THEN the opposing team cap't couldn't find his man. He looked around the room and told him it was his turn. He came up to the table with the balls spread out and picked up two balls before someone told him the game started. He put the two balls back. Stated he didn't know the game started. I don't believe I'm at fault. His team cap't should take care of his team players. He should have been with his team and not wandering around the room. Again we had already been playing and we were into the second set.

Was what he did intentional? No, I don't think so. But neither is a foul on the cue ball or scratching, or knocking a ball off the table, or hitting the wrong ball in the pocket. Should we overlook the fouls I just mentioned b/c they aren't intentional?

I don't fault the man. It could happen to anybody. But when things do happen like other fouls we have rules that address it. Here, it appears, we are in the dark.

To make matters a little worse - when I stated "foul" he comes back with a smart remark instead of recognizing his own inattention to the game and respect to other players.
 
Well yes, if your in the middle of a match with the guy and he is nowhere to be found.... it is his fault. If you are just starting a match and you start without him, then its your fault.
 
Dawgie said:
Let me try to be more clear. I just thought there was a rule that would apply specifically to this situation. So here goes:

1. We play BCA League

2. We were well into our second set of games.

3. Each person that breaks also racks for him/her self.

I was told it was my turn to play by the opposing team cap't. I went directly to pick up and rack the balls. I then proceeded to break and came up dry. THEN the opposing team cap't couldn't find his man. He looked around the room and told him it was his turn. He came up to the table with the balls spread out and picked up two balls before someone told him the game started. He put the two balls back. Stated he didn't know the game started. I don't believe I'm at fault. His team cap't should take care of his team players. He should have been with his team and not wandering around the room. Again we had already been playing and we were into the second set.

Was what he did intentional? No, I don't think so. But neither is a foul on the cue ball or scratching, or knocking a ball off the table, or hitting the wrong ball in the pocket. Should we overlook the fouls I just mentioned b/c they aren't intentional?

I don't fault the man. It could happen to anybody. But when things do happen like other fouls we have rules that address it. Here, it appears, we are in the dark.

To make matters a little worse - when I stated "foul" he comes back with a smart remark instead of recognizing his own inattention to the game and respect to other players.
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Omg. And no it's not a foul. How can you start the game without the opponent? First of all, we all shake hand before starting the game. The second, why haven't you guys string to determine who may break the rack first?
 
Dawgie said:
Let me try to be more clear. I just thought there was a rule that would apply specifically to this situation. So here goes:

1. We play BCA League

2. We were well into our second set of games.

3. Each person that breaks also racks for him/her self.

I was told it was my turn to play by the opposing team cap't. I went directly to pick up and rack the balls. I then proceeded to break and came up dry. THEN the opposing team cap't couldn't find his man. He looked around the room and told him it was his turn. He came up to the table with the balls spread out and picked up two balls before someone told him the game started. He put the two balls back. Stated he didn't know the game started. I don't believe I'm at fault. His team cap't should take care of his team players. He should have been with his team and not wandering around the room. Again we had already been playing and we were into the second set.

Was what he did intentional? No, I don't think so. But neither is a foul on the cue ball or scratching, or knocking a ball off the table, or hitting the wrong ball in the pocket. Should we overlook the fouls I just mentioned b/c they aren't intentional?

I don't fault the man. It could happen to anybody. But when things do happen like other fouls we have rules that address it. Here, it appears, we are in the dark.

To make matters a little worse - when I stated "foul" he comes back with a smart remark instead of recognizing his own inattention to the game and respect to other players.
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BCA League Rules are even less specific than the WSRs re: unsportsmanlike conduct.

Bottom line, in league play, such conduct is whatever the referee or other official says it is. But given the brief and HIGHLY general description of such conduct, the event in question doesn't seem to come even close to being unsportsmanlike.

It was cleary an accident with no bad intentions but equal blame on both sides. If he had swept all the balls on the table so that the rack could not possibly have been restored that would be one thing. But replacing the balls with the agreement of both sides solved this problem IMHO.

Regards,
Jim

1.45 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
1. You must not commit any act which is unsportsmanlike in nature. This includes, but is not limited to, actions which are embarrassing, disruptive, or detrimental to other players, spectators, tournament officials, or the sport in general.
2. Players are not only responsible for their actions during a match, but also at all times while they are present at the event venue.
3. Unsportsmanlike conduct is penalized at the discretion of the referee or other designated officials. Penalties for unsportsmanlike conduct vary and are based upon the referee?s or official?s judgment of the severity and nature of the unsportsmanlike act. Referees or officials have the authority to penalize or disqualify, with or without warning, any player who acts in this manner.
 
WesleyW said:
Omg. And no it's not a foul. How can you start the game without the opponent? First of all, we all shake hand before starting the game. The second, why haven't you guys string to determine who may break the rack first?
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Our league teams have decided that whoever breaks also racks their own balls. It's not my rule but it is what we do. We usually wish each other luck before the game and shake hands after the game is over.

I started the game by responding to the opossing team cap't that it was my turn to play. I don't think it's my responsiblilty to find my opponent when his own team cap't said to start and HE didn't know where his player was.

Why do you say it isn't a foul?
 
My call would be... Re-position the two moved balls to your mutual satisfaction... and play on... no foul... just as if the two balls were moved inadvertantly on his first shot (except that there would be no option to leave the balls where they ended up since they ended up in your opponent's hands).
 
Omg. And no it's not a foul. How can you start the game without the opponent? First of all, we all shake hand before starting the game. The second, why haven't you guys string to determine who may break the rack first?





I didn't say or imply his actions were unsportsman like. I'm asking for the rule that governs this situation. What is highly general about my posts? Have you read the entire thread?
 
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Dawgie said:
I started the game by responding to the opossing team cap't that it was my turn to play. I don't think it's my responsiblilty to find my opponent when his own team cap't said to start and HE didn't know where his player was.

Why do you say it isn't a foul?
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Well, I dont think its your responsibility to FIND the player, but you should NEVER start a match before the player has even shown up.... regardless if the captain said to start.

If I showed up for my match and the first rack was already broken.... I would be pissed! IMO, what he did is not even close to a foul and starting without him is VERY unsportmanlike.
 
You should not start without him, what if he was in the bathroom and you broke and ran the table?

I think it's a little of everyones fault, his captain didn't tell him it started and you didn't tell him that the table was open. I don't think it's a foul and I don't see why it's a big deal in the first place. Did you win the game?

As for his smart remark after you said "Foul." It was probably uncalled for but also maybe you could have asked if it's foul instead of saying "foul" cause as I can see we all still do not know if it's really a foul or not.
 
cleary said:
Well, I dont think its your responsibility to FIND the player, but you should NEVER start a match before the player has even shown up.... regardless if the captain said to start.

If I showed up for my match and the first rack was already broken.... I would be pissed! IMO, what he did is not even close to a foul and starting without him is VERY unsportmanlike.
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So as showing up late in your match. Just my two cents. . .

By the sound of it, the league is a TEAM tournament. The captain answers to his own teammates. If he let the game proceed without his teammate, it his fault. And should be considered as a foul in this case.
 
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