9-ball Gurus, Please Analyze this Position

[sjm]

Last night, playing some nine ball with a friend, my friend left me in the following particularly problemmatic position. The problem was that as all the kicks at the two were tough. My first instinct was to knock the nine in. After all, the three was tied up so there was, seemingly, no runout. But then, I relaized that the spotted nine would set up opponent for a two-nine combo with ball in hand, a shot my opponent certainly rated to make. It took me a while to make my decision on what to do here. Before relating what I did, let's hear what others on the forum recommend when facing this position against a good player.

 

[Koop]

Hi sjm,

I'm certainly no guru but I love these so I'll throw my hat in the ring.
I think I would try to make the 9 off the 8 and send the 2 ball to the side rail. It's a risky shot but what the heck. Curious to hear what others would do.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Bob Jewett]

Last night, playing some nine ball with a friend, my friend left me in the following particularly problemmatic position. ...

Since I can't get to the two ball on a jump shot, I'd play the carom from the eight to the nine to pocket the nine and move the two ball up-table.

 

[Bobby]

Hi sjm,

I'm certainly no guru but I love these so I'll throw my hat in the ring.
I think I would try to make the 9 off the 8 and send the 2 ball to the side rail. It's a risky shot but what the heck. Curious to hear what others would do.

Thanks,
Dave

That's exactly what I was thinking, you beat me to
it! The only other option that I can see would be
to pocket the 9-ball but hit it fairly hard for the
cueball to come back down and disturb the 2-ball
thereby eliminating the combo on the 9-ball.

 

[Koop]

That's exactly what I was thinking, you beat me to
it! The only other option that I can see would be
to pocket the 9-ball but hit it fairly hard for the
cueball to come back down and disturb the 2-ball
thereby eliminating the combo on the 9-ball.

Hey Bobby,

Just nice to know I finally did something that other people would do .

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Kerry Impson]

I think the idea first explained by both Dave and Bob is the best, but another option would be to foul intentionally by moving the eight in front of the two, thereby blocking the potential 2-9 combo (although possibly setting yourself up for a three-foul loss of game). And of course there is still a carom on the 9 available..... Hmmmmm, like I said, the first idea was the best!!

Incidentally, would a 30-second shot clock, using your one extension (assuming it was not hill-hill), have afforded you enough time to make that decision? Just curious.

 

[sixpack]

Last night, playing some nine ball with a friend, my friend left me in the following particularly problemmatic position. The problem was that as all the kicks at the two were tough. My first instinct was to knock the nine in. After all, the three was tied up so there was, seemingly, no runout. But then, I relaized that the spotted nine would set up opponent for a two-nine combo with ball in hand, a shot my opponent certainly rated to make. It took me a while to make my decision on what to do here. Before relating what I did, let's hear what others on the forum recommend when facing this position against a good player.

I don't like the carom with the 8 moving the 2 because if you miss the nine, you give him a very easy 9-ball combo. Where the two is now he has to navigate it and the three or play a carom to make the nine.

I would probably try to freeze the 8 on the two the side nearest the 8 to prevent an easy pocket for the two and make sure the 2-8 combo doesn't go. I think the hit is possible though and might be the best option, coming off the end rail by the 9 with right hand english. If you were able to hit the correct side of the two, there is a probable safe there behind the 7.

Good post. I'm interested to see what you did.

Regas

 

[RAG]

It appears there ios enough distance between the 8 and 2 that you could jump the 8 and carom the 9 off the 2

 

[Celtic]

Hey Bobby,

Just nice to know I finally did something that other people would do .

Chalk up one more that thought that shot looks pretty fair.

 

[Qnut]

Chalk up one more that thought that shot looks pretty fair.

And another...that was the first thing I thought when I saw the shot.

Although with that table layout, if you were playing 3 fouls I'd be pretty worried about giving up the first. With a ball in hand to start, I think a solid player would be able to make a nice attempt at 3-fouling you.

How about 3 rails (top first) to hit the 2, or hard right off the end rail to hit the 2...both with the hopes of potting the 8 off the 2 or the 5 off the 2-8 carom? Not sure I would try either, but possibilities...

Edit: whoops...wrong ball#

 

[frankncali]

I don't like the carom with the 8 moving the 2 because if you miss the nine, you give him a very easy 9-ball combo. Where the two is now he has to navigate it and the three or play a carom to make the nine.

I would probably try to freeze the 8 on the two the side nearest the 8 to prevent an easy pocket for the two and make sure the 2-8 combo doesn't go. I think the hit is possible though and might be the best option, coming off the end rail by the 9 with right hand english. If you were able to hit the correct side of the two, there is a probable safe there behind the 7.

Good post. I'm interested to see what you did.

Regas

I think freezing the 8 to the 2 is to risky. Even if you get it on the two the player would be able to (a) bank the two on the nine and hook you
(b) feather the 2 and send whitey at the nine maybe hooking you behind the eight (c) may a simple safe and maybe get a better shot at the nine
(d) if you dont get the 8 perfect he can just shoot the 2 nine combo.

I like the other option of the playing the carom off the eight. Most players can execute the shot and better players will be able to control the 2 balls speed and location as well.
Only other option I see is knocking the nine out of the hole like in 1 pocket if its possible or cutting in the nine and sending the cue ball at the 2 to take away the combo once the 9 is spotted.
Neither of these is any better than the carom off the eight. However I might be inclined to knock the nine out if it can be knocked out. Especially if I dont think the guy can three foul me.

 

[sjm]

Well, there were only three things I considered:

1) Tying up the eight to the two. Decided this was a poor choice because, with ball in hand, there would still be a fairly easy carom off the two to make the nine with the cue ball.

2) The shot recommended by most, caroming off the eight to make the nine and repositionong the two, eliminating the combo on the nine.

3) The carom off the four, sending the cue into the nine and the four one rail into the cluster, thereby repositioning the two, eliminating the combo.

Seems most of us are on the same page here, because I went with option number two, the choice recommended by most. It was very thin off the eight and there was a slight danger of missing the nine with the cue ball, but I reckoned it was easier than the carom off the four into the nine, the only other shot that seemed to have some merit in this situation.

Thanks for all your input.

 

[sixpack]

Well, there were only three things I considered:

1) Tying up the eight to the two. Decided this was a poor choice because, with ball in hand, there would still be a fairly easy carom off the two to make the nine with the cue ball.

2) The shot recommended by most, caroming off the eight to make the nine and repositionong the two, eliminating the combo on the nine.

3) The carom off the four, sending the cue into the nine and the four one rail into the cluster, thereby repositioning the two, eliminating the combo.

Seems most of us are on the same page here, because I went with option number two, the choice recommended by most. It was very thin off the eight and there was a slight danger of missing the nine with the cue ball, but I reckoned it was easier than the carom off the four into the nine, the only other shot that seemed to have some merit in this situation.

Thanks for all your input.

SJM,

Were you able to win the game from there? This is a very difficult situation. Even playing your shot perfectly seems like a tough place to win from.

Regas

 

[sixpack]

I think freezing the 8 to the 2 is to risky. Even if you get it on the two the player would be able to (a) bank the two on the nine and hook you
(b) feather the 2 and send whitey at the nine maybe hooking you behind the eight (c) may a simple safe and maybe get a better shot at the nine
(d) if you dont get the 8 perfect he can just shoot the 2 nine combo.

I like the other option of the playing the carom off the eight. Most players can execute the shot and better players will be able to control the 2 balls speed and location as well.
Only other option I see is knocking the nine out of the hole like in 1 pocket if its possible or cutting in the nine and sending the cue ball at the 2 to take away the combo once the 9 is spotted.
Neither of these is any better than the carom off the eight. However I might be inclined to knock the nine out if it can be knocked out. Especially if I dont think the guy can three foul me.

Good points. It raises an interesting question though. Given the fact that the none of the options we've discussed give you a more than remote chance of winning the game against a good player, here's what I'm wondering;

I always try to think about how I can turn the tables. Here it's maybe 10% chance of winning if you move the two and the nine. 0% chance if you move the two and miss the nine. 5% chance if you freeze the 8 on the two etc...

If there was a 3-5% chance (1 in 20-30) of making a kick shot and getting him safe which possibly put you in control of the game and give you a 60% chance of winning, is it worth it? You'll sell out 19 out of 20 times, but the other way you'll win maybe 1 in 10, even though your chance of executing the shot is around 60-80% say.

I realize these numbers are made up and might not reflect reality, but I tend to try the more difficult shot that I think will turn the tables rather than an easier shot that will just delay the inevitable. Sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesn't. What do you all think?

Cheers,
Regas

 

[bruin70]

i'd like to see GOOD 3 cushion players' solution. they can change the angles off cushions that pool players can't fathom,,,,although i think you DO have to kill that 9 because it's a sitting duck.

 

[sjm]

SJM,

Were you able to win the game from there? This is a very difficult situation. Even playing your shot perfectly seems like a tough place to win from.

Regas

I did win this rack by winning the safety battle on the three. Yes, I did start behind in this safety battle but turned it around with solid defense and kicking.

 

[sjm]

Good points. It raises an interesting question though. Given the fact that the none of the options we've discussed give you a more than remote chance of winning the game against a good player, here's what I'm wondering;

I always try to think about how I can turn the tables. Here it's maybe 10% chance of winning if you move the two and the nine. 0% chance if you move the two and miss the nine. 5% chance if you freeze the 8 on the two etc...

If there was a 3-5% chance (1 in 20-30) of making a kick shot and getting him safe which possibly put you in control of the game and give you a 60% chance of winning, is it worth it? You'll sell out 19 out of 20 times, but the other way you'll win maybe 1 in 10, even though your chance of executing the shot is around 60-80% say.

I realize these numbers are made up and might not reflect reality, but I tend to try the more difficult shot that I think will turn the tables rather than an easier shot that will just delay the inevitable. Sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesn't. What do you all think?

Cheers,
Regas

Interesting , Sixpack, for there is a kick that is a realistic chance, and that would be going to the top rail between the nine and the first diamond and cutting back two rails to the two ball using left english, as shown below. i just couldn't see how any good could come of this kick.

Anyone think this kick should be considered?

 

[sjm]

bump bump bump

 

[ironman]

Last night, playing some nine ball with a friend, my friend left me in the following particularly problemmatic position. The problem was that as all the kicks at the two were tough. My first instinct was to knock the nine in. After all, the three was tied up so there was, seemingly, no runout. But then, I relaized that the spotted nine would set up opponent for a two-nine combo with ball in hand, a shot my opponent certainly rated to make. It took me a while to make my decision on what to do here. Before relating what I did, let's hear what others on the forum recommend when facing this position against a good player.

I think you have to make the 9 and give him BIH. If not and you give hm BIH, making the combo and setting up a 2-9seems pretty easy.

 

[worldison2]

bump bump bump

SJM,
Been waiting over 2 years for a response? I go with the conventional wisdom here (suggestion # 2 from post 12). Carom off the 8 and sink the nine (or at least displace it), and at the same time send the 2 to the rail so there is no follow-up shot in case the 9 is still there.
Excellent scenario! Thanks for resurrecting it!

EDIT: I just realized I didn't even address your 2-year-old question: That 2 rail bank is too "low-percentage" for me. It seems to have a high percentage of scratch potential and could easily lead to end-of-game.