9-Ball on the Snap

JAM

JAM

I am the storm
Silver Member
Last night, we went to a Midnight Madness tournament in Virginia, and I must admit that I had a great all-nighter, though today I'm running in slow gear. :o

UPA Touring Pro Mike Davis, fresh back from his great win in Reno, showed up, as did AzBilliard's Black-Balled, and some other local pool players. Egg McDogitt was in the house, and quite a few regulars at First Break Cafe. BTW, Black-Balled came in third place and is looking mightly sporty on a field of green.

As an aside, Keith asked Mike about his break cue, if it would be legal on the IPT tour, and Mike said that it would not because of the tip. I didn't realize that some of the current break cues won't be allowed because of the way they're made. Also, Mike said he really enjoyed his recent Reno trip, not only the win, but the whole tournament. He believes that his break was working brilliantly, especially on the bar boxes. Mike won a qualifier up in New England a while back, which paid for all of his expenses, travel and lodging. Way to go, Mike Davis! This kid really gives it his all at every event he attends, and he sure does get around, a real globe trotter these days.

It's always great to catch up on the pool smut with other tournament soldiers, and Mike Davis shared with me that the Florida Pro Tour took a vote in recent times and decided to change the rules that, if a 9-ball went in on the break, it would be spotted up. He also stated he suggested this rule to a TD of a regional tour in our area, which is currently being contemplated.

With the break being such a large component of one's 9-ball game, I was wondering if this rule change is, in fact, a good thing. It would put an emphasis on one's shooting skills set as opposed to their break. Any thoughts?

JAM
 
It is an interesting idea. I still think they should just switch to 10-ball and be done with it. However, since 9-ball is the popular game, I think that would solve a ton of the issues. I like it.
 
I was getting a little tired of seeing the multi-colored bear myself.

Avatar pic courtesy of Poolpics by Hoppe!

JAM
 
Also, comment about seeding!!!

JAM said:
...Mike Davis shared with me that the Florida Pro Tour took a vote in recent times and decided to change the rules that, if a 9-ball went in on the break, it would be spotted up. He also stated he suggested this rule to a TD of a regional tour in our area, which is currently being contemplated.

With the break being such a large component of one's 9-ball game, I was wondering if this rule change is, in fact, a good thing. It would put an emphasis on one's shooting skills set as opposed to their break. Any thoughts?

JAM
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When I'm playing, I would rather be beaten by a guy who is running out the racks, not by making 9-balls on the break. At least that way I can see some great shooting. Given the short races in these local tournaments and relatively high entry fee, I want to get the most enjoyment out of my contribution. Watching someone make several 9-balls on the break in a short race to 7 is not enjoyable. So, I vote to spot up the 9-ball.

While we're talking about this, I also vote against seeding of top players. Tour directors should know that 2/3 of the players (I'm among them) are playing with the HOPE, not EXPECTATION, that they will get into the money. One-third of the players expect to get into the money and indeed, usually do. For example, scan the list of money earners in the Planet Pool stops for the last 3 years (prior to seeding) and you will see the same names consistently rising to the top. Now with seeding, it makes it much more difficult for the two-thirds who HOPE to make it to the money since a top 10 player is guaranteed to be in every part of the bracket, or automatically advanced via byes. Don't make it easier for the people who get into the money anyway! The semi-pros and pros don't like to play each other early in the tournament, so why should the other two-thirds of the tour (=two-thirds of the tour income) be stuck playing them early? I vote to let the luck of the draw determine this.
 
JAM said:
It's always great to catch up on the pool smut with other tournament soldiers, and Mike Davis shared with me that the Florida Pro Tour took a vote in recent times and decided to change the rules that, if a 9-ball went in on the break, it would be spotted up. He also stated he suggested this rule to a TD of a regional tour in our area, which is currently being contemplated.
Click to expand...

This is always an interesting and tricky topic, but I don't like this rule change. I know the players don't like the nine going in on the break, but as a fan, I think it's one of the most exciting occurrences in the game.

I recall that at the 2004 Women's Challenge of Champions, this rule probably decided a set. Jeanette Lee broke at double hill against Allison Fisher in the first set of the two set final and made a ball, spread them well, and left an easy shot on the one. Looked to me like Jeanette would probably run out for the set. I didn't realize, however, that the ball Jeanette had made on the break was the nine! The rule you have referred to was in effect, and it was truly painful watching referee Tipton spot the nine right in front of the cue ball. Lee was now snookered from the one and had to push, and a couple of turns later, Allison Fisher won the set, and she went on to win the winner take all event.

Once again , this is about what the players like vs what the fans like. At all the major nine ball events I've ever attended, the crowd got excited about it when anybody snapped the nine. Most fans view a nine on the break as evidencing excellence, not luck, and view it as a fine accomplishment.

If there's a rule I'd change with respect to the nine ball break, it's that ball in hand would have to be taken in the kitchen if the breaker scratches. A scratch on the break might not be the instant loss that it is now at top levels of play.
 
Here is how I would like to see the game played -

1 - No nine ball breaks

2 - no slop

3 - Early nine combos/caroms still allowed. Adds interesting aspect to the game...

I never understood why slop was accepted...
 
JAM said:
As an aside, Keith asked Mike about his break cue, if it would be legal on the IPT tour, and Mike said that it would not because of the tip. I didn't realize that some of the current break cues won't be allowed because of the way they're made.
Click to expand...
Has to be a leather tip from what I understand. Cues like the Stinger have had to be slightly, uhh, "tweaked" to be legal as the stock Stingers have a phenolic tip.
 
sjm said:
This is always an interesting and tricky topic, but I don't like this rule change. I know the players don't like the nine going in on the break, but as a fan, I think it's one of the most exciting occurrences in the game.

I recall that at the 2004 Women's Challenge of Champions, this rule probably decided a set. Jeanette Lee broke at double hill against Allison Fisher in the first set of the two set final and made a ball, spread them well, and left an easy shot on the one. Looked to me like Jeanette would probably run out for the set. I didn't realize, however, that the ball Jeanette had made on the break was the nine! The rule you have referred to was in effect, and it was truly painful watching referee Tipton spot the nine right in front of the cue ball. Lee was now snookered from the one and had to push, and a couple of turns later, Allison Fisher won the set, and she went on to win the winner take all event.

Once again , this is about what the players like vs what the fans like. At all the major nine ball events I've ever attended, the crowd got excited about it when anybody snapped the nine. Most fans view a nine on the break as evidencing excellence, not luck, and view it as a fine accomplishment.

If there's a rule I'd change with respect to the nine ball break, it's that ball in hand would have to be taken in the kitchen if the breaker scratches. A scratch on the break might not be the instant loss that it is now at top levels of play.
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I have always felt that instead of the 9 being spotted up, it should just stay down, and the next highest ball becomes the game winning ball.

I think that if someone fouls on the break, they should definately be penalized for it. I have viewed some old matches where if a player scratched on the break, and made a ball or two, they would be spotted up and the incoming player would have ball in hand behind the line. Often they really wouldn't have a decent safety. So in actuality, making balls on the break and scratching on the break benefitted the player who scratched more often than not.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
I have viewed some old matches where if a player scratched on the break, and made a ball or two, they would be spotted up and the incoming player would have ball in hand behind the line. Often they really wouldn't have a decent safety. So in actuality, making balls on the break and scratching on the break benefitted the player who scratched more often than not.
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I played that way for years, and this is not consistent with my experience. It was rare that you didn't have at least a good safety, and let's not forget that you can still "push" if you choose. It's still the shot immediately following the break.
 
I agree with Donavan, Switch to 10 ball and be done with it. It's not necessarily the nine being made on the break that makes the break so huge, its the consistancy of the wing balls (especially on new cloth), and the one ball in the side that make the break so huge. IMHO
 
cuetechasaurus said:
I think that if someone fouls on the break, they should definately be penalized for it. I have viewed some old matches where if a player scratched on the break, and made a ball or two, they would be spotted up and the incoming player would have ball in hand behind the line. Often they really wouldn't have a decent safety. So in actuality, making balls on the break and scratching on the break benefitted the player who scratched more often than not.
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I think a reasonable alteration to that rule would be that the incoming player would have the option to pass the shot back to the breaker. I've suggested this rule before.
 
beetle said:
While we're talking about this, I also vote against seeding of top players. Tour directors should know that 2/3 of the players (I'm among them) are playing with the HOPE, not EXPECTATION, that they will get into the money. One-third of the players expect to get into the money and indeed, usually do. For example, scan the list of money earners in the Planet Pool stops for the last 3 years (prior to seeding) and you will see the same names consistently rising to the top. Now with seeding, it makes it much more difficult for the two-thirds who HOPE to make it to the money since a top 10 player is guaranteed to be in every part of the bracket, or automatically advanced via byes. Don't make it easier for the people who get into the money anyway! The semi-pros and pros don't like to play each other early in the tournament, so why should the other two-thirds of the tour (=two-thirds of the tour income) be stuck playing them early? I vote to let the luck of the draw determine this.
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I disagree with you. This is a tournament to establish the best player of the day. If you can't beat the top ten player then you don't deserve to get to get farther into the tournament then he does.

The Canadian Championships last year was a joke. All of our best players knocked eachother off in the bottom bracket, while the nobody's played amongst eachother in the top half.

As for the 9 ball off the break, i think it should be banned. It does add an element of excitement for the audience but I don't like the luck involved. At last years world pool masters Marcus Chamat made three 9's off the break against Mika Immonen. Mika was disgusted and so was I.

But I also believe that the 9 ball should be called. Wu fluked a 9 against Steve Davis, the crowd was not impressed. I've never heard a quieter crowd after a rack winner. Not a single person clapped.
 
I have been saying that for a while now. When playing rack your own you have to be 'on' top of the rack with certain people. Usually by the time you find out the rack is rigged, the nine is at the bottom of the corner pocket. Also- when playing in handicapped tournaments with weaker players, I have had the misfortune sooooo many times of getting a terrible rack that has the nine rolling towards the pocket, yet I've been slugged so hard that I didn't make a ball and.... You guessed it! combo on the nine.
I really think that 10 ball is the game, but watching a player string racks is also fun. Spotting the nine is a good idea, even if I don't like change.
 
Agree with CaptiveBred and Cameron - 9-ball should be called, no slop. Agree with SJM - 9 on the break should be retained; even the remotest possibility of a player making the 9, having it spotted, and getting penalized, as SJM indicated, should be enough to obviate this change. As to what should happen when a player scratches on the break, I'm on the fence. When a player breaks and the CB goes right in the pocket, the breaker deserves to be penalized; if the CB is struck by a ball and gets pocketed, the penalty should be less severe IMO - how do you "split the difference" here, or can you? I'm intrigued by Donovan's 10-ball proposition; I think the relative merits of 9-ball and 10-ball deserves discussion and will start a separate thread on this.

JAM - you were sorely missed during your short absence; great to have you back!
 
I think if you make the 9ball on the break it should be a win.

Why should someone be penalized for making the 9ball on the break?

I will say that when you see your opponent break and have the 9ball bounce off a couple balls and be kicked into a pocket that is kinda sick, but thats the game.

But its also nice to see a 9ball go straight into a pocket like it has a string on it.

I guess its personal preference. All the times i have played 9ball, i have never given back a 9ball break or spotted it, unless it was practice.

I will say i have had some 9ball breaks that was ugly, when the 9ball just goes around the table like a pinball.

dave
 
First post here :)

I have to agree I think the 9 should be spotted if made on the break. Pocket billiards should be a game of skill not luck. There will always be an element of luck,like how the balls roll after a break. But doing this will minimize the luck factor.

I have been playing BCA 8-ball recently and found out in 8-ball the 8 is spotted if made on the break.

Last night I made the 8 twice but had to come back up (I wonder if its a coincedence I just watched Joe Tuckers racking secrets, I never made the 8 twice in one night before...:D

SloRoller
Slo,Ca aka The Death Valley of Pool
 
iacas said:
Has to be a leather tip from what I understand. Cues like the Stinger have had to be slightly, uhh, "tweaked" to be legal as the stock Stingers have a phenolic tip.
Click to expand...

iacas, Jerico Cues has now come out with an IPT Legal Stinger. The tip is an extremely hard leather, not phenolic, but uses the same stinger technology as the current Phenolic tipped Stinger. When my "set" of cues come is, The J/B will have two shafts. One normal Stinger shaft and an IPT Stinger shaft.

Later,
Bob
 
I just wanted to mention that the Florida Pro Tour is actually a 10-ball tour. Many of the people in this thread have been talking about switching to 10-ball instead of 9-ball. However this doesn't prevent the money ball from being made on the break. Both are good games, but either way if you play rack-your-own and the 9/10 ball does count on the break, I feel like you often have to pay attention to your opponents racks. Making the 9/10 ball not count on the break should solve a lot of problems. I don't mind my opponent making the corner ball and running out. That was the reason for the switch from rotation to 9-ball, to speed up the game and make it more exciting. And of course, I have the opportunity to do the same thing on my break. I just wish they would make the switch to the 9/10 ball not counting so that there would be less arguments over the rack and people could just play pool and enjoy the game.
 
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