A different perspective on the Mosconi Cup

kollegedave said:
What I have seen from the event was horrible.

Earl's conduct is horrible. It appeared to me that some of the American players were not really "on the same page" with what shot to shoot, how to shoot it, etc., and it makes me wonder if there wasn't some friction between the players off the table.

There are a lot of ideas in this thread, many of which are interesting and good, but if there is no dramatic change in the event from this year to next, I think it would be good to get some new blood into the even for the Americans, and I think it would be good to let the team and some alternates know ahead of time, that they are going to go, and maybe they can prepare some together and mend any hard feelings well in advance of the Cup.

I think we should consider scrapping the points deal and having the team picked by the captain or some other informed person.

I have a proposed list:

Team Captain: Nick Varner

Team Members

Shane Van Boening
Corey Deuel
Mike Dechaine

Here are some interesting possibilities for the last two spots with maybe one or two as an alternate

Chip Compton
John Schmidt
Brandon Shuff
Justin Bergman
Chris Bartram
Joey Gray

Just my 0.02, I would hate to see more Americans acting like morons on TV. A reasonable penalty would be that those who act like morons should not expect to represent their country soon after they embarass it.

kollegedave
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I strongly disagree. Subjective selection of the team is the wrong way to go if America is to find its way back to the winner's circle. Let's take politics and favoritism out of the equation to the greatest extent possible.

As Europe has demonstrated, the team captain should have significant instruction credentials, and if they also have played on a winning Mosconi Cup team, much the better. I can think of two guys who are highly respected instructors and have played on a winning Mosconi Cup team, and that would be Mark Wilson of Missouri and Tony Robles of New York, who also happen to be two of the classiest guys you'd ever want to meet.

As for the players, if its based on performance, any Team USA will start with Van Boening and Dechaine, as well it should.

After that, a whole lot of guys might earn a spot, but I hope it's young guys like these that actually do:

Justin Hall
Skylar Woodward
Jeremy Sossei
Brandon Shuff
Jesse Engel
Billy Thorpe
Hunter Lombardo
Dan Mastermaker

What people want to see is a competitive match. There's an old saying that if one team wins over and over, it's not a rivalry, and this supposed-rivalry is slowly losing its shine.
 
sjm said:
I strongly disagree. Subjective selection of the team is the wrong way to go if America is to find its way back to the winner's circle. Let's take politics and favoritism out of the equation to the greatest extent possible.

As Europe has demonstrated, the team captain should have significant instruction credentials, and if they also have played on a winning Mosconi Cup team, much the better. I can think of two guys who are highly respected instructors and have played on a winning Mosconi Cup team, and that would be Mark Wilson of Missouri and Tony Robles of New York, who also happen to be two of the classiest guys you'd ever want to meet.

As for the players, if its based on performance, any Team USA will start with Van Boening and Dechaine, as well it should.

After that, a whole lot of guys might earn a spot, but I hope it's young guys like these that actually do:

Justin Hall
Skylar Woodward
Jeremy Sossei
Brandon Shuff
Jesse Engel
Billy Thorpe
Hunter Lombardo
Dan Mastermaker

What people want to see is a competitive match. There's an old saying that if one team wins over and over, it's not a rivalry, and this supposed-rivalry is slowly losing its shine.
Click to expand...

SJM,

Some of the guys on our list overlap. I think you have an interesting idea of including instructors as coaches. I don't know Tony Robles, but of course I have heard of him and of his great reputation as an instructor, player and person.

I do know Mark Wilson, and I think he is a fantastic instructor and a better person. I think Mark Wilson and Robles are excellent ideas for coaches, but not because of their skill as instructors, but because they have the maturity and intellect to help build a team.

I suggested the subjective selection of the team, because some of the players you and I listed, while very accomplished players, do not go to all of the events that provide "Mosconi points", but it seemed to me in watching (admittedly only portions of this years cup) that our team might benefit from some new blood and new relationships.

For example, if we select players based on "points" from events, doesn't that exclude most of the players from your list and my list?

How would you propose to include new players, but make the selection objective?

kollegedave
 
sjm said:
....What people want to see is a competitive match. There's an old saying that if one team wins over and over, it's not a rivalry, and this supposed-rivalry is slowly losing its shine.
Click to expand...

i can tell you that the fans BROUGHT IT this year - no mistake. 2011, the US was out-shouted. 2013 - we RANKED. so no excuses. and when we were down....WE GOT LOUDER.

but Team Europe, is what it always has been - a TEAM. it's what they do over there. Johan is an amazing Coach, for good reason. on, and off, the scene.

we sat @ Europe section @ Day 2 (cause someone stole our front-row US seats!), and it was
- informative
- enjoyable
- and no one had to meet CSI Vegas's finest....although it was close @ 1 point

@ Day 3, all Euro fans (and a select few from US), came to the sidelines after & shook EVERY players' hand - BOTH sides. "well done! good game!" so did we. (and then the Euro party commenced)

and this, is what's missing from Pool, IMO.
 
kollegedave said:
SJM,

Some of the guys on our list overlap. I think you have an interesting idea of including instructors as coaches. I don't know Tony Robles, but of course I have heard of him and of his great reputation as an instructor, player and person.

I do know Mark Wilson, and I think he is a fantastic instructor and a better person. I think Mark Wilson and Robles are excellent ideas for coaches, but not because of their skill as instructors, but because they have the maturity and intellect to help build a team.

I suggested the subjective selection of the team, because some of the players you and I listed, while very accomplished players, do not go to all of the events that provide "Mosconi points", but it seemed to me in watching (admittedly only portions of this years cup) that our team might benefit from some new blood and new relationships.

For example, if we select players based on "points" from events, doesn't that exclude most of the players from your list and my list?

How would you propose to include new players, but make the selection objective?

kollegedave
Click to expand...

You can only hope that new players prove themselves worthy. You can't force it.
 
sjm said:
I strongly disagree. Subjective selection of the team is the wrong way to go if America is to find its way back to the winner's circle. Let's take politics and favoritism out of the equation to the greatest extent possible.

As Europe has demonstrated, the team captain should have significant instruction credentials, and if they also have played on a winning Mosconi Cup team, much the better. I can think of two guys who are highly respected instructors and have played on a winning Mosconi Cup team, and that would be Mark Wilson of Missouri and Tony Robles of New York, who also happen to be two of the classiest guys you'd ever want to meet.

As for the players, if its based on performance, any Team USA will start with Van Boening and Dechaine, as well it should.

After that, a whole lot of guys might earn a spot, but I hope it's young guys like these that actually do:

Justin Hall
Skylar Woodward
Jeremy Sossei
Brandon Shuff
Jesse Engel
Billy Thorpe
Hunter Lombardo
Dan Mastermaker

What people want to see is a competitive match. There's an old saying that if one team wins over and over, it's not a rivalry, and this supposed-rivalry is slowly losing its shine.
Click to expand...

I agree the picks should NOT be subjective. The problem with selections based on points is that none of your list (except SVB and MD) can be considered. You don't see those guys on the top step of any tournament pedestals either. Unfortunately, going by traditional point systems, you are likely going to see the same, or similar, casts of characters. The only way to maintain a points list is for the criteria to be clearly defined at the start of the year. Then, it will give all players the opportunity to compete in the events that carry Mosconi Cup points.

The other way to pursue it is to pick a new team captain, and have them pick players that he knows that will play for him. This reverts back to favoritism, etc, but can be mitigated by picking a captain like Tony Robles (who I know and respect immensely). Problem here is that he won't always be captain, and we will eventually be back to square one: someone loading up a team with their friends, regardless of chemistry or talent.

2013 was supposed to be unique in that the teams were assembled as an anniversary special. We will know more in the coming months from Barry what his plans are for the future. Perhaps team America will no longer be included in the future. To be fair though, Barry should really have this sorted now and inform everyone at the beginning of the new year.
 
The other way to ensure everyone's best efforts is to play winner take all. Up until now, I hadn't considered that as a viable option. At least it ensures everyone will show up, ready to play.
 
PINKLADY said:
i can tell you that the fans BROUGHT IT this year - no mistake. 2011, the US was out-shouted. 2013 - we RANKED. so no excuses. and when we were down....WE GOT LOUDER.

but Team Europe, is what it always has been - a TEAM. it's what they do over there. Johan is an amazing Coach, for good reason. on, and off, the scene.

we sat @ Europe section @ Day 2 (cause someone stole our front-row US seats!), and it was
- informative
- enjoyable
- and no one had to meet CSI Vegas's finest....although it was close @ 1 point

@ Day 3, all Euro fans (and a select few from US), came to the sidelines after & shook EVERY players' hand - BOTH sides. "well done! good game!" so did we. (and then the Euro party commenced)

and this, is what's missing from Pool, IMO.
Click to expand...

This event isn't about the few hundred fans in attendance. In fact, they really are nothing more than props. The key here are the advertisers and Matchroom's bottom line. With more showings like the Americans gave this year, Matchroom will be forced to prescribe format changes.
 
PINKLADY said:
i can tell you that the fans BROUGHT IT this year - no mistake. 2011, the US was out-shouted. 2013 - we RANKED. so no excuses. and when we were down....WE GOT LOUDER.

but Team Europe, is what it always has been - a TEAM. it's what they do over there. Johan is an amazing Coach, for good reason. on, and off, the scene.

we sat @ Europe section @ Day 2 (cause someone stole our front-row US seats!), and it was
- informative
- enjoyable
- and no one had to meet CSI Vegas's finest....although it was close @ 1 point

@ Day 3, all Euro fans (and a select few from US), came to the sidelines after & shook EVERY players' hand - BOTH sides. "well done! good game!" so did we. (and then the Euro party commenced)

and this, is what's missing from Pool, IMO.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I, too sat in the Europe section one day and enjoyed it.

Yes, they have that special team unity and we need to get our hands on some of that. I also agree with you that we can all learn something from them. Their kind of sportsmanship is what we should be striving for and, yes, it's a big part of what's missing form pool.

Thanks for a thoughtful, well-considered post, PinkLAdy.
 
Why did you leave off Landon Shuffett?

sjm said:
I strongly disagree. Subjective selection of the team is the wrong way to go if America is to find its way back to the winner's circle. Let's take politics and favoritism out of the equation to the greatest extent possible.

As Europe has demonstrated, the team captain should have significant instruction credentials, and if they also have played on a winning Mosconi Cup team, much the better. I can think of two guys who are highly respected instructors and have played on a winning Mosconi Cup team, and that would be Mark Wilson of Missouri and Tony Robles of New York, who also happen to be two of the classiest guys you'd ever want to meet.

As for the players, if its based on performance, any Team USA will start with Van Boening and Dechaine, as well it should.

After that, a whole lot of guys might earn a spot, but I hope it's young guys like these that actually do:

Justin Hall
Skylar Woodward
Jeremy Sossei
Brandon Shuff
Jesse Engel
Billy Thorpe
Hunter Lombardo
Dan Mastermaker

What people want to see is a competitive match. There's an old saying that if one team wins over and over, it's not a rivalry, and this supposed-rivalry is slowly losing its shine.
Click to expand...

I believe that the USA Mosconi Cup Team (players) would have to first embrace the idea of an instructor/coach's value before you will such on the team. I too believe it is what is needed but if the USA Mosconi Cup Team isn't pulling in the same direction as the coach, and having faith in their advice, then it will be a difficult journey at best.

JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
I believe that the USA Mosconi Cup Team (players) would have to first embrace the idea of an instructor/coach's value before you will such on the team. I too believe it is what is needed but if the USA Mosconi Cup Team isn't pulling in the same direction as the coach, and having faith in their advice, then it will be a difficult journey at best.

JoeyA
Click to expand...

I doubt very seriously that you will find very many American "professional" pool players willing to change something in their game because a coach wants them to. Certainly not any that were on this years team.

Could you imagine Tony Robles or Mark Wilson trying to "fix" something in Earl's game...or Hatch's...or Johnny's...etc.???

If you could find a really good coach (like the two mentioned above) and 5 coachable players that will leave their egos at home...then we will begin to have a semblance of a "team".

Good luck with that!!!

Maniac
 
Remember, it was 9/9 on the final day in London last year.

JoeyA said:
I believe that the USA Mosconi Cup Team (players) would have to first embrace the idea of an instructor/coach's value before you will such on the team. I too believe it is what is needed but if the USA Mosconi Cup Team isn't pulling in the same direction as the coach, and having faith in their advice, then it will be a difficult journey at best.

JoeyA
Click to expand...

Remember, it was 9/9 on the final day in London last year. It could have went either way and if we would have tied it up 10/10 Shane would have been playing Darrin A. and I'm convinced he would have won that match......we had all the momentum and Shane was in DEAD STROKE......Darrin, on the other hand was "off his game" from what FatBoy said.
 
I agree that if you want to instill class into the Mosconi Cup than either Mark Wilson or Tony Robles should be a captain.

The team should be

SVB
Corey Duel
Jeremy Sossei
Oscar Dominquez
Mike Davis

Shawn Putnam and Chris Bartram as alternates or possible players.
 
CJ Wiley said:
Remember, it was 9/9 on the final day in London last year. It could have went either way and if we would have tied it up 10/10 Shane would have been playing Darrin A. and I'm convinced he would have won that match......we had all the momentum and Shane was in DEAD STROKE......Darrin, on the other hand was "off his game" from what FatBoy said.
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In last year's Mosconi, Darren beat Shane 5-0 and Shane beat Darren 5-1. If Darren was off his game, it was still good enough to win more racks than Darren in their head to head matches. Their third match would have been a coin toss. Actually, most of us on the forum, at the time, assumed you'd go with the undefeated Johnny Archer in the captain's pick match if it got to 10-10.

Finally, my opinion is that Shane has not been in dead stroke in any Mosconi Cup to date. Nonetheless, CJ, I posted it a year ago, and am happy to repeat that I think you did a very solid job as captain.
 
"CJ, I'm in the same stroke I was when I won the US OPEN"....I nodded

sjm said:
In last year's Mosconi, Darren beat Shane 5-0 and Shane beat Darren 5-1. If Darren was off his game, it was still good enough to win more racks than Darren in their head to head matches. Their third match would have been a coin toss. Actually, most of us on the forum, at the time, assumed you'd go with the undefeated Johnny Archer in the captain's pick match if it got to 10-10.

Finally, my opinion is that Shane has not been in dead stroke in any Mosconi Cup to date. Nonetheless, CJ, I posted it a year ago, and am happy to repeat that I think you did a very solid job as captain.
Click to expand...

At that particular moment (and nothing else mattered) Shane and I talked.....he looked me dead in the eye and said "CJ, I'm in the same stroke I was when I won the US OPEN"....I nodded and said "I know you are, Shane, I can tell by how you're hitting the ball"......Darrin, on the other hand was up in the practice room nervously practicing and talking to the TV......we concluded that he really didn't want to have to play the final match.

I know Darrin and Shane are a "coin toss," but at that particular moment in history Shane was the clear favorite and I'm as sure as I can be that he would have won that match. Of course no one can know for sure, this is just my honest evaluation, and I've extremely confident that it is accurate.

FatBoy was up there with Darrin and he'll confirm what I'm communicating, we were in constant communication (he was acting as my assistant). 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
CJ Wiley said:
At that particular moment (and nothing else mattered) Shane and I talked.....he looked me dead in the eye and said "CJ, I'm in the same stroke I was when I won the US OPEN"....I nodded and said "I know you are, Shane, I can tell by how you're hitting the ball"......Darrin, on the other hand was up in the practice room nervously practicing and talking to the TV......we concluded that he really didn't want to have to play the final match.

I know Darrin and Shane are a "coin toss," but at that particular moment in history Shane was the clear favorite and I'm as sure as I can be that he would have won that match. Of course no one can know for sure, this is just my honest evaluation, and I've extremely confident that it is accurate.

FatBoy was up there with Darrin and he'll confirm what I'm communicating, we were in constant communication (he was acting as my assistant). 'The Game is the Teacher'
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing, CJ, and I see no need to confirm what you've said. This is the difference between watching all the matches, which I did, and being there on the sidelines. Fans like me are, occasionally, unaware of some of the intangibles, and if you could see the eye of the tiger and supreme confidence in Shane, you'd have been making the right choice for the captain's pick match.
 
Shane, on the other hand is at his pinnacle of performance and endurance.

sjm said:
Thanks for sharing, CJ, and I see no need to confirm what you've said. This is the difference between watching all the matches, which I did, and being there on the sidelines. Fans like me are, occasionally, unaware of some of the intangibles, and if you could see the eye of the tiger and supreme confidence in Shane, you'd have been making the right choice for the captain's pick match.
Click to expand...

Johnny Archer and I talked a lot during the 2012 Mosconi Cup (we shared an apartment) and he made it clear that he was playing well, but to NOT play him late in the evening. Players like Johnny are very realistic about their strengths and weaknesses, this is what makes them so consistent in tournament play.

Johnny is still almost as great a player as he was in his earlier years, he just tires more quickly after a long day. We all have this issue, I know my endurance isn't what it was in my early 30s......Shane, on the other hand is at his pinnacle of performance and endurance.
 
If the picks are gonna be subjective anyway, and not based on who's winning major events right now,
how about John Schmidt? Seems like he's semi-retired lately but I bet he can be convinced.

He's already shown he plays at the highest level, and he's got some personality too...
chats with the crowd, makes wisecracks about his shots, etc.

And the Matchroom guys seem to like people who have been involved in a little controversy.
John's only got a tiny bit of that reputation due to his squabbles with Harriman
but otherwise seems to behave like a professional. I doubt he'd embarrass us on or off the table.
 
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