A few things I learned on AZ

No one loves the game more than I do, but I don't think there is much of a chance the sport will gain widespread popularity.

I'd like to paste a post I made last year with an extra thought or two regarding pools popularity. I feel strongly this is the unfortunate catch 22 product of this intricate game we love. This comes from 45+ yrs of enjoying the game as well as being a room owner, and sadly I think it will forever prevent the game from gaining major popularity.

------

Exposure to sports / games is what makes them popular to a large degree along with the ability to enjoy performing them, even if only at a novice level.

Once again take for example bowling. Exposure to the game is a natural. A guy and girl go on a date and decide to go bowling. Within one or two attempts they are both at least able to knock down pins with a REAL chance to see themselves make a strike.

Since it is relatively easy to knock down pins and perhaps strike, it even draws kids, families, couples. The resulting atmosphere is an open, fun laugh and jump enjoyable experience.

Golf is another, and different example. Golf is an outdoor game where spectators and players can enjoy the outdoor environment without feeling inhibited or closed in.

Even if they don't perform well, wives and girlfriends are with their men enjoying a day outdoors. Further, they actually can get a feel of golf in another family type environment with mini-golf, which provides yet another form of exposure to the game.

All these exposures spark interest.

Baseball, while worlds apart from the previous examples, still attracts huge TV and novice involvement. Its both an outdoor game, a family event, and just about anyone can catch a ball in a glove (which is an addictive feeling) as well as swing a bat. You go to enough ball games, feel the breeze, enjoy the excitement in the atmosphere of the stadium, and anyone can get hooked on the sport.

Now take pool. It comes from a seedy past. It certainly is intimidating to walk into a pool room as well. You don't really have a great deal of "your own space" while playing. When I had my poolroom, it was obvious to see newcomers lost for a place to stand, what to hold, or how to act when it wasn't their turn. Newcomers are intimidated by the complexity of the game.

Newcomers often came in slightly larger groups also. Maybe, double dates trying it out. Perhaps for the extra moral support. They stood between tables holding the shaft of the sick with two hands, balancing on the butt end placed on the floor. When it was their turn, they were so uncomfortable that they were happy to wail at a shot quickly just to get back to trying to find a space to stand where no one would notice how badly they had just embarrassed themselves.

Now, add to that, the fact that playing the game itself,for the most part is very frustrating to a beginner. Nothing at all like the open fun feeling from bowling or even golf.

Did you ever try playing opposite handed? Try it, maybe while playing with your eyes closed, which is about the same as a newbie who has no idea where to hit the OB or CB. It won't be long before you get a feel for how most new to the game get christened. Nothing like bowling where they are knocking down pins right away.

How long would most of us play with a Rubic's Cube before we wanted to throw it through a window? It simply is more frustrating than fun. By its very nature and complexity it destroys it's own chances of motivating folks to continue to play.

Unlike miniature golf, the idea isn't to laugh and giggle amongst yourselves when the ball bounce off the Windmill. Rather, you stand there, uncomfortable, holding the stick, feeling people around you look at you like you don't have a clue what your are doing. Its just not a comfortable thing for most to do.

And these days you add to that, ridiculously loud intimidating garbage music and the atmosphere becomes even less appealing to neophytes. With so many other choices of things to do, its no wonder to me that pool is much less popular than other sports.

The only chance is to create better, friendlier atmospheres for people so they can be given half a chance at being comfortable playing.

I always thought a poolroom in an indoor shopping mall, well lit with lots of room and no off the wall ( I use the term loosly) music blaring, would offer a more inviting atmosphere. Maybe even a nice pizza area for folks to come in for a bite and a quick look at folks playing.
 
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Johnnyt said:
Well this thread went nowhere in a hurry. Johnnyt
Thats is funny.............
I'm not laughing at you, but at the truth of your reply.....I would think however, sombody that has been around as long as you would know what your going to get. As far as I know Jay is the only one that makes any type of effort to do anything for pool (other than flap their fingers) but yet everybody eles has the answer.

I dont know the guy but, I say if Allen Hopkins cant get it going it going to happen.......
 
3andstop...

You make some valid points........to add to your observations,
If I said lets play Tennis you know exactly what we are going to do, if I said lets play golf, again we know what we are going to do, if I said lets go bowling, same thing.............what happens when I say lets play pool!

Do you know what we are going to do?
What game? What rules? Do we play a race or so many ahead?

DC
 
Mowem down said:
.....As far as I know Jay is the only one that makes any type of effort to do anything for pool .......

..... then you don't know much. I've sponsored professional players, I've served on the Board of a major pool organization, I've financed or partially financed local exhibitions, and I've invested tens of thousands of dollars and thousands of hours of my time into pro pool.

.... and there are others who've posted in this thread who've invested plenty of time and money in trying to support our sport.
 
Jay,
There is a little tournament here in nw Montana in a couple weeks. My understanding is there are 132 players (don't know how many women) (and many will travel a several hundred miles to attend in winter weather-one year it was about 16 below when I left). There are 4-5 guys planning and making all the arrangements with help --- these are just guys who love to play. One of their biggest problems is WHERE (there are no pool rooms). I know they started several months ago --- 'cause they called me in December. Its not easy to put it all together --- we have played at various places and different people over the years have been involved in making it happen. I enjoy playing 'cause there are some hard core players who love this game and enjoy the tournament (its forever on their calendar). And I expect to see Bigsky Jake playing:)

So I understand just a little of all that goes into the production for a big tournament with all the pros etc ---- its not easy man. As a player I appreciate all the work.
 
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sjm said:
..... then you don't know much. I've sponsored professional players, I've served on the Board of a major pool organization, I've financed or partially financed local exhibitions, and I've invested tens of thousands of dollars and thousands of hours of my time into pro pool.

.... and there are others who've posted in this thread who've invested plenty of time and money in trying to support our sport.
Im guesing the "as far as I know" part wasnt clear enough, or your efforts in a game as obscure as pool arnt as well known as you think they should be..

As far as not knowing much I bet I know more about games in general then most people on here. Pool is far from the only (best) game to not get the following it deserves in the USA. You can play racquetball for many a major university, try making a living at that game...But keep talking about the game the players and whats wrong with them and all the other things, that keep going round and round, maybe somday you'll find the answer...
 
JAM said:
I just had an opportunity to ask my "date." LOL!

He seems to think Wimpy was pretty strong in his day and probably the best all-around player! :)

The best stroke of them all, my "date" says, is Cowboy Jimmy Moore, just like I thought he would say! :o

My date says Keith McCready, when he was in his prime, was pretty strong. :thumbup:

Sorry, I should have said "other than himself." We know his stroke was tops.

Who does he like in regards to today's players?

Dave
 
I appreciate your opinions and well-thought-out post. :)

I respectfully and vehemently disagree! :p

It's the old chicken-and-the-egg debate once again.

If there's anthing I've learned on AzBilliards, it's that there will always be those who believe pool players are the reason for pool's demise in the United States -- and I think they are wrong -- and EVERYBODY has an opinion on who's the best pool player in the world. :thumbup:


Do you remember or have you heard about the men's Camel tour??
If not you should do a little research & you might change your mind.
 
Mowem down said:
Im guesing the "as far as I know" part wasnt clear enough, or your efforts in a game as obscure as pool arnt as well known as you think they should be..

I do not want recognition, now or in the future, but your post implied that you felt the people in this thread, other than Jay, are not those stepping up to the plate and doing something for our sport. The tone of your post suggested that these posters were, consequently, just clueless outsiders blowing off steam, who had little to contibute to the online discussion. It was an inappropriate implication.
 
jay helfert said:
I'm ALWAYS optimistic Dick, but I have been a witness to the past. Like you, I'd like to see there be a pro tour, but at this point in time, I am resigned to no longer trying to be the point man. I put a good twenty years in trying to make something happen in this respect and was even rebuffed by the BCA when I presented a viable plan, and their coffers were flush. All water under the bridge now.

There may or may not be another L.A. Open. It is a huge undertaking to produce an event like this, and a thankless task at best. I could make more money working a 40 hour week at MacDonald's. :wink:

I certainly see where you're coming from Jay. So many disheartening setbacks. You have hung in there and contributed far more than most anybody.
I did not mean to infer that you were not hoping for the best.
I'm sure we are on the same page.

Dick
 
There is no shortage of people who love the sport of pool. I find them everywhere I go. And there are also many people who work for the good of the sport. If not for them (backers and sponsors), we could never get 64 players to show up at a major championship in this country.

Bob Jewett throws in ten grand of his own money every year to put on the Straight Pool Challenge at DCC. Several New Yorkers have sponsored the Straight Pool Championship held there the last few years. Mark Griffin bailed out the top seven players (and me) last year when we got stiffed at the event in Phoenix (to the tune of 25K+). Fatboy just stuck in $4,000 to hold the very successful Fatboy challenge at DCC.

The only reason pool thrives in this country is because of people like this. What we have long needed is a concerted effort by the people who really control the purse strings of our sport. By that I mean the manufacturers of tables, cloth, balls, cues, chalk etc. If they had all banded together years ago we would have had a pro tour, and a damn good one at that. At one time, they were all benefiting greatly from the popularity of pool, and only a few would put any money into professional pool.

A few manufacturers that have stepped to the plate again and again are Brunswick, Diamond, Olhausen, Joss, McDermott, Predator, Jacoby, Pechauer, OB1, Simoniz and a few others. Where are the slate companies that have gotten rich off pool? And what about the biggest company in the pool world, Tweetens who makes Master chalk. The owners of these companies could have done more for the sport that has enriched them. JMHO of course.
 
Johnnyt said:
(1) There will never be a good National Tour for the pros that has dues, membership fees, and run by a non-pro.

(2) There are way too many players that call themselves pros that are not. Maybe there are 300 real pro in the US, tops. What's needed is a National Tour that has qualifiers for the best 200 players to compete on the big tour. The rest can compete on the amateur level of the same tour. If some players can't cut the big tour they are sent down to the amateur tour and the replaced with top player on the amateur tour. There should also be qualifiers to get on the amateur tour. KT had part of it right, he just had purses too high (probably 50% too high at least) and entry fees in qualifiers were way too high. If he had handled it a little differently who knows how big it could have grown?

One big problem with pool on TV is not many want to watch it. You have to make appeal to the mainstream. Hard core players are going to tune in or not tune in, that won't change much then it's now. Hat's needed is teams of pros from all over the US. Maybe have two, up to four players on a team? The teams must have catchy names. Players need to do some outrageous things to in the tabloids. Movie stars and famous people have to be seen at the tour events. Let them play the night before the tournament for charity. Cue companies and cuemakers need to give the stars one of their cues just like the dress companies and jewelry companies do at the Global and other awards do. When the mainstream sees these stars and famous people playing with their own cue, they will follow. Pool needs to be cool. Pool needs to be "everybody's doing it". Mainstream sponsors will want to have their name

I believe it's time for the pros to step up and trust someone to start a National Pro Tour. It has to start with them. Johnnyt

Idea: What about a site (ustream style) dedicated solely to streaming live pool (all disciplines & all levels of play) to include the National Tour you suggest. No movies, no basketball, etc -- just the sport we love -- from C players to A players. There could even be a lesson site. I believe more sponsors would come on board as they wouldn't be dealing with "umpteen" streamers -- each wanting sponsorship. A central site where the more sponsors that come on board the cheaper it would be for them on a pro rata basis!

Something of this nature could conjure up all sorts of things pool related and thereby increase interest in our sport that is in need of a "bump". League champs against league champs, challenger winner against challenger winner, state champs against state champs, and so on in all in all forms of discipline.

This might be a stupid idea; but, it is an idea nonetheless. TV has proven they have no interest in covering our sport to the degree it deserves.
 
sjm said:
..... then you don't know much. I've sponsored professional players, I've served on the Board of a major pool organization, I've financed or partially financed local exhibitions, and I've invested tens of thousands of dollars and thousands of hours of my time into pro pool.

.... and there are others who've posted in this thread who've invested plenty of time and money in trying to support our sport.

WHAT? You've been there and done all that? Had all that? Invested all that and all I did was sit around talking with you for a week? I must be losing my edge. :scratchhead:
JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
WHAT? You've been there and done all that? Had all that? Invested all that and all I did was sit around talking with you for a week? I must be losing my edge. :scratchhead:
JoeyA

Hell, dude, if I hadn't done all that, I'd have been unworthy of your compaany.
 
3andstop said:
No one loves the game more than I do, but I don't think there is much of a chance the sport will gain widespread popularity.

I'd like to paste a post I made last year with an extra thought or two regarding pools popularity. I feel strongly this is the unfortunate catch 22 product of this intricate game we love. This comes from 45+ yrs of enjoying the game as well as being a room owner, and sadly I think it will forever prevent the game from gaining major popularity.

------

Exposure to sports / games is what makes them popular to a large degree along with the ability to enjoy performing them, even if only at a novice level.

Once again take for example bowling. Exposure to the game is a natural. A guy and girl go on a date and decide to go bowling. Within one or two attempts they are both at least able to knock down pins with a REAL chance to see themselves make a strike.

Since it is relatively easy to knock down pins and perhaps strike, it even draws kids, families, couples. The resulting atmosphere is an open, fun laugh and jump enjoyable experience.

Golf is another, and different example. Golf is an outdoor game where spectators and players can enjoy the outdoor environment without feeling inhibited or closed in.

Even if they don't perform well, wives and girlfriends are with their men enjoying a day outdoors. Further, they actually can get a feel of golf in another family type environment with mini-golf, which provides yet another form of exposure to the game.

All these exposures spark interest.

Baseball, while worlds apart from the previous examples, still attracts huge TV and novice involvement. Its both an outdoor game, a family event, and just about anyone can catch a ball in a glove (which is an addictive feeling) as well as swing a bat. You go to enough ball games, feel the breeze, enjoy the excitement in the atmosphere of the stadium, and anyone can get hooked on the sport.

Now take pool. It comes from a seedy past. It certainly is intimidating to walk into a pool room as well. You don't really have a great deal of "your own space" while playing. When I had my poolroom, it was obvious to see newcomers lost for a place to stand, what to hold, or how to act when it wasn't their turn. Newcomers are intimidated by the complexity of the game.

Newcomers often came in slightly larger groups also. Maybe, double dates trying it out. Perhaps for the extra moral support. They stood between tables holding the shaft of the sick with two hands, balancing on the butt end placed on the floor. When it was their turn, they were so uncomfortable that they were happy to wail at a shot quickly just to get back to trying to find a space to stand where no one would notice how badly they had just embarrassed themselves.

Now, add to that, the fact that playing the game itself,for the most part is very frustrating to a beginner. Nothing at all like the open fun feeling from bowling or even golf.

Did you ever try playing opposite handed? Try it, maybe while playing with your eyes closed, which is about the same as a newbie who has no idea where to hit the OB or CB. It won't be long before you get a feel for how most new to the game get christened. Nothing like bowling where they are knocking down pins right away.

How long would most of us play with a Rubic's Cube before we wanted to throw it through a window? It simply is more frustrating than fun. By its very nature and complexity it destroys it's own chances of motivating folks to continue to play.

Unlike miniature golf, the idea isn't to laugh and giggle amongst yourselves when the ball bounce off the Windmill. Rather, you stand there, uncomfortable, holding the stick, feeling people around you look at you like you don't have a clue what your are doing. Its just not a comfortable thing for most to do.

And these days you add to that, ridiculously loud intimidating garbage music and the atmosphere becomes even less appealing to neophytes. With so many other choices of things to do, its no wonder to me that pool is much less popular than other sports.

The only chance is to create better, friendlier atmospheres for people so they can be given half a chance at being comfortable playing.

I always thought a poolroom in an indoor shopping mall, well lit with lots of room and no off the wall ( I use the term loosly) music blaring, would offer a more inviting atmosphere. Maybe even a nice pizza area for folks to come in for a bite and a quick look at folks playing.

Excellent observations 3 'n stop. you have made some very good points.
Playing pool at a high level is not easily achieved.
Those who hang in there and make the grade, are the ones who keep us posting and hoping we can become like them.
Otherwise AZB would not exist.

Dick
 
3andstop said:
No one loves the game more than I do, but I don't think there is much of a chance the sport will gain widespread popularity.

I'd like to paste a post I made last year with an extra thought or two regarding pools popularity. I feel strongly this is the unfortunate catch 22 product of this intricate game we love. This comes from 45+ yrs of enjoying the game as well as being a room owner, and sadly I think it will forever prevent the game from gaining major popularity.

------

Exposure to sports / games is what makes them popular to a large degree along with the ability to enjoy performing them, even if only at a novice level.

Once again take for example bowling. Exposure to the game is a natural. A guy and girl go on a date and decide to go bowling. Within one or two attempts they are both at least able to knock down pins with a REAL chance to see themselves make a strike.

Since it is relatively easy to knock down pins and perhaps strike, it even draws kids, families, couples. The resulting atmosphere is an open, fun laugh and jump enjoyable experience.

Golf is another, and different example. Golf is an outdoor game where spectators and players can enjoy the outdoor environment without feeling inhibited or closed in.

Even if they don't perform well, wives and girlfriends are with their men enjoying a day outdoors. Further, they actually can get a feel of golf in another family type environment with mini-golf, which provides yet another form of exposure to the game.

All these exposures spark interest.

Baseball, while worlds apart from the previous examples, still attracts huge TV and novice involvement. Its both an outdoor game, a family event, and just about anyone can catch a ball in a glove (which is an addictive feeling) as well as swing a bat. You go to enough ball games, feel the breeze, enjoy the excitement in the atmosphere of the stadium, and anyone can get hooked on the sport.

Now take pool. It comes from a seedy past. It certainly is intimidating to walk into a pool room as well. You don't really have a great deal of "your own space" while playing. When I had my poolroom, it was obvious to see newcomers lost for a place to stand, what to hold, or how to act when it wasn't their turn. Newcomers are intimidated by the complexity of the game.

Newcomers often came in slightly larger groups also. Maybe, double dates trying it out. Perhaps for the extra moral support. They stood between tables holding the shaft of the sick with two hands, balancing on the butt end placed on the floor. When it was their turn, they were so uncomfortable that they were happy to wail at a shot quickly just to get back to trying to find a space to stand where no one would notice how badly they had just embarrassed themselves.

Now, add to that, the fact that playing the game itself,for the most part is very frustrating to a beginner. Nothing at all like the open fun feeling from bowling or even golf.

Did you ever try playing opposite handed? Try it, maybe while playing with your eyes closed, which is about the same as a newbie who has no idea where to hit the OB or CB. It won't be long before you get a feel for how most new to the game get christened. Nothing like bowling where they are knocking down pins right away.

How long would most of us play with a Rubic's Cube before we wanted to throw it through a window? It simply is more frustrating than fun. By its very nature and complexity it destroys it's own chances of motivating folks to continue to play.

Unlike miniature golf, the idea isn't to laugh and giggle amongst yourselves when the ball bounce off the Windmill. Rather, you stand there, uncomfortable, holding the stick, feeling people around you look at you like you don't have a clue what your are doing. Its just not a comfortable thing for most to do.

And these days you add to that, ridiculously loud intimidating garbage music and the atmosphere becomes even less appealing to neophytes. With so many other choices of things to do, its no wonder to me that pool is much less popular than other sports.

The only chance is to create better, friendlier atmospheres for people so they can be given half a chance at being comfortable playing.

I always thought a poolroom in an indoor shopping mall, well lit with lots of room and no off the wall ( I use the term loosly) music blaring, would offer a more inviting atmosphere. Maybe even a nice pizza area for folks to come in for a bite and a quick look at folks playing.

3and stop, You feel the same as I do about loud rap music.(are we that old?) However, that is what the younger crowd seems to thrive on.
If you owned a poolroom though, would you rather have a few old farts listening to Lawrence Welk, sipping coffee, or a room full of kids, Drinking beer and spending money while listening to P Diddy or Eminem ? Let them have their amusement.
Their 'first meeting' love song might well be " I shot the cop, and I'm glad I did" by Jay Z. (accompanied by a freaked out dude, scratching on a turn-table) No more "Love me Tender" by Elvis. But hey, it could be worse ! (I think NOT)
They may never learn to draw their ball, but they will spend money.(from drug sales, or breaking into OUR HOUSE'S !!!)
I hate it too. But as a businessman, you have to make an income to stay afloat. Pool becomes a secondary interest .....sad but true.
Dick

Dick
 
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Roy Steffensen said:
I think I just learned that I should have written "I have learned" instead of "I have learnt" :D Learning something new every day! (I learnt, I have learned. Correct?)

Sorry for hijacking the thread johnny :o

But I actually disagree a little with you too. Get a businessman to run a tour, not a poolplayer.


as a biz man and mostly respected by the pro's i could possibley do a good job at it, problem is i dont have a winning formula for them to earn a living-so I'm not out there pretenidng too. If I ever come up with a formula nad have the tiem I believe I could do a god job and make the pro's $$ and be well recieved by most of them-as a biz man. But for now I cant so I'm just networking and thinking daily about a formula.
 
Fatboy said:
as a biz man and mostly respected by the pro's i could possibley do a good job at it, problem is i dont have a winning formula for them to earn a living-so I'm not out there pretenidng too. If I ever come up with a formula nad have the tiem I believe I could do a god job and make the pro's $$ and be well recieved by most of them-as a biz man. But for now I cant so I'm just networking and thinking daily about a formula.

That right there is what gives me hope for the future of pool. Everyone who has posted in this thread (along with FB!) is thinking about it. No matter how much or how little influence each individual has, it seems to me none of us is willing to give up on the game we all love. That alone has to be worth something.
 
chilli66 said:
That right there is what gives me hope for the future of pool. Everyone who has posted in this thread (along with FB!) is thinking about it. No matter how much or how little influence each individual has, it seems to me none of us is willing to give up on the game we all love. That alone has to be worth something.

Sometimes I wonder if enough people chase a ghost, does that make it exist?

Okay, a little esoteric and creepy.

No one's talking about quitting. Fool! :D
 
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