A little update

Shawn,

Why not talk about it? This topic will always come up from time to time and some of us love the topic.

I asked a very similar question almost 20 years ago on RSB, although I didn't mention becoming a pro but instead I mentioned becoming an "A player" but really I was thinking of getting to the pro level. Looking back now, I think I could have gotten my game really close to that level if I had went for it, but I got really discouraged and gave up. I guess it's tricky because I just didn't have the information I needed back then to make a go of it. On the other hand, even if all the information that's available now was available back then I probably wouldn't have had the maturity to find and use it. Oh well - it all worked out for me in the end I suppose.

Here's my post from almost twenty years ago. It makes me cringe a bit but so it goes.

Another newbie here. I have actually been reading everyone's posts for
quite some time now. I have even attempted post a few myself but have
had server problems. I have found this newsgroup to be quite
informative and I have personally spread much information to the local
players via this newsgroup (I work at one of the local pool rooms in
Kalamazoo MI).
Now on to my question. I have been playing pool seriously now for
only about a year and a half, and I'm twenty two now. I have got to the
point where I can play with most of the good local players (most is the
operative word). I really think that I could be an 'A' player someday.
However, I wasn't born with a cue stick in my hand like most of the
better players. Is this something that many players have overcome or is
that a serious detriment that few can indeed overcome? That's all for
now. I will appreciate any comments and I did search through Dejanews
for similar questions and didn't really find any. Thanks again

Wannabe
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Straightpool_99 said:
Like many on here you seem very angry, and for what?

Some kid thinks he's going to be a "Canadian pro-level player" (which has allready been established not to be an actual professional, but just a very good player). I don't think that is very far fetched at all.

To me he seemed to have a decent amount of talent too, he certainly wasn't talentless by any stretch of the imagination. Skill develops both steadily and in leaps and it's not always easy to tell how talented someone is, down to 3 decimal points, btw. You often can't tell until after the fact.

All the best players I know were REALLY good after 5 years, good enough to compete with the best and not be embarrased in most cases.
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Not angry, I just believe in dealing with facts and honesty and telling it like it is even if it isn't what certain people want to hear.

I think we have a different understanding of his goal among other things. He started for a while saying he wanted to be pro level. After enough flack over how unrealistic that was he back tracked to lower tier pro level.

I also agree that he had a little talent. My belief was never that it was impossible that he could become pro level. My belief is that it was dumb to be 100% certain of that considering the odds, and this kid was 100% certain, and still is. As I made very clear in a previous post, I see nothing wrong with shooting for the stars as long as you take an educated risk. Thinking you have 100% odds of accomplishing something you really only have .01% or maybe .1% odds at best of accomplishing is not taking an educated risk. It is called being in denial.

That said, we have actually seen enough at this point to know that he does not have the talent to be pro level, although he could still be very good. Like you said, pros get good fast, because they have exceptional talent, much more talent than 99.9% of us. Which is why it is so unlikely that any random person who has never played pool could ever reach pro level and why it would be so dumb for them to believe with 100% certainty that they could. The issue isn't that he shot for a dream. The issue isn't that he felt he had a chance of reaching pro level. This issue was that it was 100% certain in his mind that he could be pro level in pool or anything else he wanted. He simply was incapable of dealing with reality and that is what people had the problem with. Not that he tried anyway.
 
RichSchultz said:
Would Sam have been an SL 7/9 in APA?
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No. I would have said about a 5... 6 max. He could make balls. His position was sketchy though and his shot selection was terrible.

But from complete Noob to that level in 1 year is damn good IMO.
 
Poolplaya9 said:
My sense is that this is a guy that feels he is superior to everyone in every way and his main reason for trying new things is to prove that to himself and others. When he finds out that he doesn't have that one in a thousand or one in a million talent or ability for whatever it is he moves on to try something else because his self ego is so inflated he is still sure that he will have superhuman talent and ability for the next thing and for everything else out there and still maintains in his mind that he could have been the best in that too except that he "lost interest". It is called denial.

There is no problem in searching for what you are best at (and what you hopefully enjoy too). There is however a problem when you are in denial and continue to think you can be the absolute best at everything when the facts say otherwise. He moves on when something doesn't back up and collaborate his inflated self image instead of learning from it and just being honest about his true abilities. Like almost every other human, he is going to suck at a lot of things, be decent at a good many, real good at a few, and truly great at the one in a thousand level at none or maybe one if he is lucky.

He is in search of any fact (being great at something) to help support his belief (that is can be truly great and a master at anything) instead of just believing what all the facts actually say (that like almost every other human he is going to suck at a lot of things, be pretty decent at a good many, real good at a few, and truly great at the one in a thousand level at none or maybe one if he is lucky). Over inflated ego and inability to deal with facts and reality is his real issue and when something doesn't jive with his ego he moves on.
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Thank god I never sucked at anything other than thinking I did

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Straightpool_99 said:
Like many on here you seem very angry, and for what? Some kid thinks he's going to be a "Canadian pro-level player" (which has allready been established not to be an actual professional, but just a very good player). I don't think that is very far fetched at all. His timeframe is short, but with dedication it could have been done. To me he seemed to have a decent amount of talent too, he certainly wasn't talentless by any stretch of the imagination. You are all talking like he's trying to become the first man on Mars, with a C- grade average! I've told this story before, but I saw a guy go from absolute beginner D- to A- in a year. THAT is superhuman talent. Getting to A speed or slightly above in 5 years certainly takes a lot of talent, but it's far from a superhuman feat. Skill develops both steadily and in leaps and it's not always easy to tell how talented someone is, down to 3 decimal points, btw. You often can't tell until after the fact.

The guy didn't quit his job to pursue this career, he's still young and still has options. We should be glad someone does have passion and desire to become great, otherwise, based on the odds, nobody would ever attempt anything difficult. We'd all be ditch-diggers and NOBODY would ever try to be good at pool.

I think there are more than one person on this forum with inflated egos, btw. You guys are psycho-analysing people like Sigmund Freud, making extremely speculative leaps based on very little input. I'd be terrified to have someone like that be in a position of power over me...

It seems every now and then people come on here to proclaim their goals to become good at pool. If it seems unrealistic, I'd treat that pretty much like I'd treat anyone saying that in a pool hall. Just go "uh-huh" and let it go. Instead he gets angry lectures from the ambition police! Some seem genuinly offended, even! "I spent 5 years becoming an APA 5, therefore it cannot be done." Give me a f-ing break! By doing that you are in fact showing YOUR limited exposure to truely talented players, not the other way around! All the best players I know were REALLY good after 5 years, good enough to compete with the best and not be embarrased in most cases. Of course they need time to become truely polished players, but they were still able to win in some cases. With raw shooting ability you can upset a lot of people in this game. As I understood it, this was the kind of level he was shooting for.

It saddens me how people take every opportunity to drag others down into the mud, wether it be female players, amateurs who are enthusiastic about the game or others who dare to dream. What the hell is wrong with you people?
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Well the part your leaving out is he asked the question if it was realistic to become a pro in 5 yrs and then came back later about being pro speed ,, when you ask a question your opening yourself up to hear answers you may not want to hear and in 99.9 pct of the time the correct answer ,,
Had he came in here a just stated I'm trying to hit pro speed in 5 yrs i work a full time job but I'm setting this as a goal how you guys go about it ,, the responses would have been far different
 
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lorider said:
So you have been playing every day for 2 years and not burnt out yet.?

News flash for you......not every one is like you ....that does not make them inferior to you just because they get burnt out.

Take me for example..i was playing league 5 nights a week ...some times 8 and 9 ball the same night.i reached 1.000 matches in 5 years in apa.

I was finally getting.burnt out....still.showed up for all 5 teams but found myself skipping a night here and there. When I did show up I was just going through the motions at the table.of course me win percentage started dropping.

Occasionally I would be drastically behind then I would ask myself ...what am k doing here if I am not going to pls my best...my team is relying on me.

Then the competitive fire inside me ignites and I wind up winning..as a result I have been called a sandbagger a lot

Recently I was down 23-7 after 3 racks in 9 ball and I came back and won 38-42 in a 38-46 race. Like I said earlier ...sometimes i bus show up not realm wanting to play but after I am losing bad I realize I either gotta shoot my best or stay home.

In the above match mu opponent said afterwards that I was not really a 5..i replied he was not really a 6 either .

Actually I enjoy when I face higher level players...i seem to play better...often winning.

Against lower levels I really dont get into the game and quite honestly dont care if I win or lose sometimes.

Maybe its time for me to quit league but I still enjoy playing pool . I dont want to become one of those guys who decide to be a serious player just playing strictly in pool halls. I am afraid I would turn into an elitist asshole like the attitude so many display.
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I have a 9 foot table on the first floor of my house. So yes, every day I play for a few hours. I also go to bars occasionally and play whoever happens to be there. Usually for fun, but I will play for drinks or money if anyone asks. I haven't burnt myself out yet. To mix it up, I practice straight pool occasionally, 8-ball, 9-ball, and even play 1-pocket against myself to practice banking.

EDIT: I am still improving a bit, but not a huge amount. I would say I am a A- level.
 
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Sam, the summer is normally a good time to slow down or take a little break from pool and enjoy the nice weather. I grew up playing in the quebec federation and when there was no tournament to practice up for it definitely made it tough to do drills and practice.

I played in as many semi-pro and pro events that cost 30-40 bucks to enter for the lower levels. Alain Martel is offering lessons at a discounted rate for the summer as well.

Anyways don't let the miserable people on here discourage you.

I'll be making a comeback this year , moving back to the area so maybe we will see you at an event after the summer!!

Cheers, Jared
 
kidpool85 said:
Sam, the summer is normally a good time to slow down or take a little break from pool and enjoy the nice weather. I grew up playing in the quebec federation and when there was no tournament to practice up for it definitely made it tough to do drills and practice.

I played in as many semi-pro and pro events that cost 30-40 bucks to enter for the lower levels. Alain Martel is offering lessons at a discounted rate for the summer as well.

Anyways don't let the miserable people on here discourage you.

I'll be making a comeback this year , moving back to the area so maybe we will see you at an event after the summer!!

Cheers, Jared
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He already was a student of a pro, but The Bear is awesome
 
I think you might get banned too, especially if others start jerking your chain about the audacity of you wanting to be an "A" player and you respond that they should just jerk each other off in PMs.

Ad hominem attacks and the person getting the needle gets banned. :eek:
JoeyA


BasementDweller said:
Shawn,

Why not talk about it? This topic will always come up from time to time and some of us love the topic.

I asked a very similar question almost 20 years ago on RSB, although I didn't mention becoming a pro but instead I mentioned becoming an "A player" but really I was thinking of getting to the pro level. Looking back now, I think I could have gotten my game really close to that level if I had went for it, but I got really discouraged and gave up. I guess it's tricky because I just didn't have the information I needed back then to make a go of it. On the other hand, even if all the information that's available now was available back then I probably wouldn't have had the maturity to find and use it. Oh well - it all worked out for me in the end I suppose.

Here's my post from almost twenty years ago. It makes me cringe a bit but so it goes.
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kidpool85 said:
Sam, the summer is normally a good time to slow down or take a little break from pool and enjoy the nice weather. I grew up playing in the quebec federation and when there was no tournament to practice up for it definitely made it tough to do drills and practice.

I played in as many semi-pro and pro events that cost 30-40 bucks to enter for the lower levels. Alain Martel is offering lessons at a discounted rate for the summer as well.

Anyways don't let the miserable people on here discourage you.

I'll be making a comeback this year , moving back to the area so maybe we will see you at an event after the summer!!

Cheers, Jared
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I hardly would call someone who gives a honest answer to the question miserable ,
What he is trying to achieve at the age he's starting is a very difficult task if it was that easy there would be a 10s of thousands of pro players
I understand we now live in a world of kumbya and participation trophys and honesty is taking a back seat
However most people giving honest answers did not grow up in this era and if you ask a question your going to get a honest educated answer
If a man 40 yr old got on a x game forum and asked if he could become a big air pro rider what kind of responses do you think he would get there priceless I'm sure although the man to beat in skate board big air is infact 40
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JoeyA,

Actually back 18+ years ago when I made the post the responses were overwhelmingly positive. It's really sort of sad how negative some can be when it comes to people wanting to improve. I think so many of us get discouraged because our games have plateaued that we then take it out on the new guy who is so optimistic about their game.

I believe us humans are all capable of so much more than we train ourselves to believe.
 
Pool has changed alot since you posted your story also.
Payouts have gone unchanged or lower then they were then.

Pro pool is not paying and a good short stop can get no action. No need to kill dreams but times have changed a bit.
 
one stroke said:
I hardly would call someone who gives a honest answer to the question miserable ,
Well, that depends. If said person delights in squashing the hopes of others for the sake of looking important and knowledgable themselves, I'd say that's pretty damned miserable. It all depends, see?
What he is trying to achieve at the age he's starting is a very difficult task if it was that easy there would be a 10s of thousands of pro players
I seriously doubt there are that many people who make any sort of serious attempt at reaching the pro level. They might want to, but I'm not seeing a lot of people seriously practicing in the poolhall 8 hours a day. Do you?
I understand we now live in a world of kumbya and participation trophys and honesty is taking a back seat
All right, tough guy, lol. We get it, it was all so damned masculine and tough back in the old days:rolleyes:. If some guy wants to get serious about pool, I'm pretty sure he's been told the risks, well and truely now.
However most people giving honest answers did not grow up in this era and if you ask a question your going to get a honest educated answer
How is your answer educated, exactly? I'm dying to know how you can be so damned sure about these things, because I'm not at all sure how much talent that guy has. He looks like he has some promise to me, that's all. I wouldn't be my life on any outcome in this matter.
If a man 40 yr old got on a x game forum and asked if he could become a big air pro rider what kind of responses do you think he would get there priceless I'm sure
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They'd probably tell him about the risks and low probability of success, and I bet someone would be complete A-holes about it, too. But you know what, I think some people would think it was pretty cool that someone would try that, even if the odds were stacked against them. But even so, these examples are not even remotely comparable. SL is not going to get killed or crippled from playijng pool. At most he's going to spend some time doing what he loves. He will of course pay a cost of lost potential income, delayed career path etc. But he is doing what he loves (or loved in this case IDK). He'll aquire skill that he can enjoy his entire life, with some luck. And his odds at getting at least close to a pro level are not at all as bleek as you make it seem, IMO, though I must admit there is no way for me to quantify those odds and I'm far from sure about it. Again, he's talking about playing on the pro-level, not making a living playing pool. And it's not an all or nothing game, either. Even if he doesn't become as good as he hopes, he'll still get a lot better than many naysayers can ever hope to be. That's not nothing in my book.

But you know, go right ahead. I guess you play a valuable role tellling people what they can't do. "Because you've only got our interests at heart."/ "It's important to be realistic." / "I'm just telling it like it is" Or whatever else you are telling yourself. If it weren't for people like you, I wouldn't have done several things that I've allready checked off my list. I just get obsessed with rubbing success in the faces of people like that, even if they'll never acknowledge they are wrong. In the end, though, you've got to do it for yourself, just like SL is doing.
 
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BasementDweller said:
Actually back 18+ years ago when I made the post the responses were overwhelmingly positive. It's really sort of sad how negative some can be when it comes to people wanting to improve.
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1. People need to hear the truth whether they want to hear it or not. Half the problems of the world today exist solely because people want to play make believe and pretend like they don't exist instead of just dealing with the truth and being open and frank about them and just dealing with them and solving them. There is way too much stroking of people's feelings these days instead of honesty and dealing with truths and facts like it should be.

2. Don't ask a question if you aren't prepared for people to give what they believe to be honest answers. Not everybody is going to stroke your feelings and tell you what they think you want to hear instead of the truth. Some people are actually going to be honest. So if you are just looking for validation of your own opinion, or think there is a chance you may not like or be able to live with what their answers could be then you shouldn't ask the question.

3. In the case of Sam, there were two separate things going on and I think many people are confusing the two together and failing to see the separation. The first was what he could do to try to become pro level and just about the how difficult it could be and how smart that might be etc. Had Sam simply asked "what is the best approach to be the best player I can possibly be" or "best approach to become pro level if I have the talent" or even "what is the best path to reach pro level" and left it at that then he would have got some positive feel good answers and he would have received some more honest realistic answers and some advice from both sides and that would have been the end of it, just as you received.

But the second issue that was the big deal to many was Sam insisting that he could 100% be a pro level pool player in 5 years if he wanted to and that there was 0% chance he could fail. That was a dumb, naive, arrogant, inability to deal with truths and facts absolutely ridiculous belief and every last single one of us with any pool experience knows it whether we chose to be honest with him or not. That is what people had the bigger issue with and took the exception to and where things went sideways and is why he took so much flack. You didn't get the same tone of response because you didn't make the same ridiculous proclamations and then steadfastly refuse to accept any of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary that was presented to you like he did.
 
this reminds me of.....

".........some people get their kicks, stompin' on a dream..."

.........Frank Sinatra
 
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