A moment of revelation

jay helfert

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
This is going to sound strange and many of you might disagree with me, but that's okay, I can take the criticism.

I was watching a Heads Up poker match last night between two of the big names in poker - Phil Hellmuth and Antonio Esfandiari. They were both mic'd for sound and there were two excellent commentators, Nick Schulman and Ali Nejad. Poker is a far simpler game than pool and yet there is complexity to the betting patterns and infinite possibilities on the outcome of each hand. That makes it interesting, plus the fact that you can get lucky and win even if you've misplayed the hand. All this combines for good television viewing. NBCSN was the network airing this show. For two hours might I add.

My observation was the banter between the players before, during and after each hand was very entertaining. The thought processes that went into the playing of each hand was always well explained and analyzed by the coms. The show kept my attention for the entire two hours and I was left wanting more. Sad to say that watching two mostly quiet and stoic pool players play a rack (or ten) of 9-Ball is not nearly as interesting. And usually the commentary is equally uncompelling. Now, for my point.

9-Ball has been the go-to game for pool on TV for a long time and it's gone no where. Even diehards like us get tired of watching it. The racks are too routine for the most part and it's easy to connect the dots to see where the next shot is going. You almost don't need commentary to watch it. I began to think how could pool capitalize on what I was seeing here, and it struck me. The much maligned game of One Pocket is the answer! Yes I said ONE POCKET! Now you will ask me why I came to that conclusion. First of all it is a very cerebral game where a lot of thought goes into each shot and the options are limitless. This fact alone opens the door for discussion between the commentators and also allows the contestants (opponents) to engage in conversation as well. In most games of One Pocket there will be banter between the players, and that can only add interest to the match, IF you can hear it.

I think new viewers might be turned on by what they are seeing, not just another game of boring 9-Ball. It's an opportunity to challenge your audience and grab their attention. They might actually learn something about the intricacies of playing pool if they watch this show. Believe it or not, there are a lot of intelligent people who watch TV and are looking for new and interesting content to view. That's the people I want to watch a show like this. They would see pool in a whole new way. We would not just have to depend on the One Pocket geeks to have an audience.

One more thing. In case you didn't notice (I have), it is the big One Pocket matches that draw the most viewers on PPV streams. Can you imagine Scott Frost and Tony Chohan jawing away, while they make one astounding shot after another. I'd like to give a TV audience a dose of that. And who knows, maybe some day I will. ;)
 
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I'm kinda teasin', so please let me have my fun. When all is said and done, though, wouldn't it be a helluva lot easier to just teach all the pool "pros" how to play poker?
 
I've wondered at one pocket too on occasion. I think two things tend to make the game drag and dull to watch for a casual viewer. First, the shot times. Of all the games, I find one pocket is the one that is most likely to get into the 40 seconds to 1 minute+ between shots. That won't ever do for TV and you will lose an audience before they can even figure out what is happening. So shot clocks are a must, probably as low as 30 seconds with two or three extensions per rack. The other issue is the up-table game. I think you will struggle to hold an audience when players are bunting the balls around up table. You would need to use some of Grady's rules to get around that.

One other bonus wrinkle is probably the lack of scoring. Snooker has similar kinds of tactical safety play that really only appeals to the connoisseur. The casual fan puts up with it because with the best players it's short bursts of safety followed by high breaks. One pocket doesn't have the big runs that break up the safety play since the max a player can run (generally) is 8 and out.

Personally, I think if we were to completely change the marquee game of pool, it should be rotation. From watching some of the Phillipino Rotation there is a ton of creativity and a nice mix of runs and safety play. Though I'd like to see some variation that requires the player to run the full rack and not just the 61 points.
 
You answered the first question yourself. A 40 second shot clock with maybe two 30 second extensions per game would suffice to handle that problem. There is actually a good solution to the second issue you raised. You touched on it when you mentioned "Grady's rules." It's called the "four ball" rule. And it works! As soon as there are four balls inside the head string the ball closest to the end rail gets spotted. I know many One Pocket purists hate this rule, but I've seen it in action enough to know that it does not alter the outcome of a match. The best One Pocket player will still win and adjust their game accordingly for this rule. This one rule stops all those long drawn-out defensive battles none of us like to watch. It's a must imo for any TV show that I would work on.

LIke you, I like the game of Rotation but it is not nearly as interesting as One Pocket and the opportunity for banter between the players and commentators is far more limited.
 
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3 fouls loss of game . 2 consecutive fouls incoming player has the option to accept the table or ball in hand in the kitchen. There has to be a referee. Streaming explanations of terms - double kiss,carom,etc.
on the bottom of screen,and the correct score.
 
One pocket is my preferred pool game to watch on YouTube.
The commentary is a big factor in the entertainment value. It is just annoying to listen to B players speculating and telling stories. It is great to have Hall of Fame players providing insight and appropriately timed commentary. The snooker commentary provided by previous champions is exemplary for pool commentary.
I hope for and wish you well in any endeavors to promote one pocket as a spectator game.👍
 
alphadog said:
3 fouls loss of game . 2 consecutive fouls incoming player has the option to accept the table or ball in hand in the kitchen. There has to be a referee. Streaming explanations of terms - double kiss,carom,etc.
on the bottom of screen,and the correct score.
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I would incorporate the "three foul" rule to stop any situation where endless fouls are taken back and forth, and both players owe multiple balls. Plus, NO jump cues! :)
 
I don't know Jay. 8-ball might have a better shot as more people play 8-ball and it is much more complex than 9-ball.
1-pocket is just too slow imo. Trudeau's 8-ball matches were very entertaining . Of course, Sigel is a great entertainment by himself. :-P
Snooker is so much more fun to watch than 9-ball, yet it's not much more complicated than 9-ball.
Poker is so fun to watch because of the uncertainty and the big stakes .
As you know, in writing, what's at stake is the first question they ask if you are pitching a screenplay or novel .
You see pool on tv and they're playing for some $30K prize and some pool table company's tropy... meh, who cares?
Now, if that thing is for the world 10-ball, $250K in prizes and a Ferrari , sh8, I'm glued.
 
JoeyInCali said:
I don't know Jay. 8-ball might have a better shot as more people play 8-ball and it is much more complex than 9-ball.
1-pocket is just too slow imo. Trudeau's 8-ball matches were very entertaining . Of course, Sigel is a great entertainment by himself. :p
Snooker is so much more fun to watch than 9-ball, yet it's not much more complicated than 9-ball.
Poker is so fun to watch because of the uncertainty and the big stakes .
As you know, in writing, what's at stake is the first question they ask if you are pitching a screenplay or novel .
You see pool on tv and they're playing for some $30K prize and some pool table company's tropy... meh, who cares?
Now, if that thing is for the world 10-ball, $250K in prizes and a Ferrari , sh8, I'm glued.
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You're absolutely right about Eight Ball compared to 9-Ball. It is a slightly more complicated game to play and more people may be familiar with it as well. But from Eight ball to One Pocket is a quantum leap in complexity! If I'm going to do something like this, I'm going all the way and not half way.
 
Btw, chess is considered a big sport in many countries as you know .
They are huge because the chess titles are freaking coveted by hundreds of millions of people .
Nothing can be more boring than chess, yet youtube channels with chess themes are extremely popular .
There is nobody in pool that will ever have 1 million subscribers .
Several tubers have million and up subbers in chess .
 
jay helfert said:
One Pocket is "The Chess Game" of pool! Bingo!
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haha. I said that many moons ago and got hammered by some Chess guy right here in AZB. He took it as a personal insult that I dared to compare billiards to chess.

The fact is, many things can be compared to chess. And 1P is just that, moving pieces around to hide, shoot or run from your opponent. Sometimes just stalling until the inevitable happens, you lose. Trust me, I played enough chess to know I'm just stalling because my opponent and I both know I'm a dead man. And then you attack when your Kings castle door is open (your pocket).

But, I agree, its not a bad idea. I truly hate some of the 1P I've heard over the years. And I really hate when they (commentators) constantly say they did the wrong thing, took the wrong shot, blah, blah, blah. I don't want to know what some dude on the bench that is not a champion would have done, I want to hear and see what the real champions are doing. But, hey, thats just me ;)
 
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jay helfert said:
This is going to sound strange and many of you might disagree with me, but that's okay, I can take the criticism.

I was watching a Heads Up poker match last night between two of the big names in poker - Phil Hellmuth and Antonio Esfandiari. They were both mic'd for sound and there were two excellent commentators, Nick Schulman and Ali Nejad. Poker is a far simpler game than pool and yet there is complexity to the betting patterns and infinite possibilities on the outcome of each hand. That makes it interesting, plus the fact that you can get lucky and win even if you've misplayed the hand. All this combines for good television viewing. NBCSN was the network airing this show. For two hours might I add.

My observation was the banter between the players before, during and after each hand was very entertaining. The thought processes that went into the playing of each hand was always well explained and analyzed by the coms. The show kept my attention for the entire two hours and I was left wanting more. Sad to say that watching two mostly quiet and stoic pool players play a rack (or ten) of 9-Ball is not nearly as interesting. And usually the commentary is equally uncompelling. Now, for my point.

9-Ball has been the go-to game for pool on TV for a long time and it's gone no where. Even diehards like us get tired of watching it. The racks are too routine for the most part and it's easy to connect the dots to see where the next shot is going. You almost don't need commentary to watch it. I began to think how could pool capitalize on what I was seeing here, and it struck me. The much maligned game of One Pocket is the answer! Yes I said ONE POCKET! Now you will ask me why I came to that conclusion. First of all it is a very cerebral game where a lot of thought goes into each shot and the options are limitless. This fact alone opens the door for discussion between the commentators and also allows the contestants (opponents) to engage in conversation as well. In most games of One Pocket there will be banter between the players, and that can only add interest to the match, IF you can hear it.

I think new viewers might be turned on by what they are seeing, not just another game of boring 9-Ball. It's an opportunity to challenge your audience and grab their attention. They might actually learn something about the intricacies of playing pool if they watch this show. Believe it or not, there are a lot of intelligent people who watch TV and are looking for new and interesting content to view. That's the people I want to watch a show like this. They would see pool in a whole new way. We would not just have to depend on the One Pocket geeks to have an audience.

One more thing. In case you didn't notice (I have), it is the big One Pocket matches that draw the most viewers on PPV streams. Can you imagine Scott Frost and Tony Chohan jawing away, while they make one astounding shot after another. I'd like to give a TV audience a dose of that. And who knows, maybe some day I will. ;)
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Just the other night a watched the IPT final between Efrin and Signal. I expected to watch for a few minutes and watched the whole 2 + hours and it was good. Mike was talking the whole time.

The commentator's were even entertaining. They were playing 8 ball and explaining what they were doing most of the time. It was a good format.

Since most of the amature players play 8 ball it is the natural game to show. Not to say others can't be played but you have to start somewhere and 8 ball makes the most sense.

As many tournaments I have put on they have always been 9 ball. If I had a room now I would do some pro 8 ball tournaments.

 
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middleofnowhere said:
Just the other night a watched the IPT final between Efrin and Signal. I expected to watch for a few minutes and watched the whole 2 + hours and it great. Mike was talking the whole time.

The commentator's were even entertaining. They were playing 8 ball and explaining what they were doing most of the time. It was a good format.

Since most of the amature players play 8 ball it is the natural game to show. Not to say others can't be played but you have to start somewhere and 8 ball makes the most sense.

As many tournaments I have put on they have always been 9 ball. If I had a room now I would do some pro 8 ball tournaments.
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Yes, I love 1P but 8ball is the game the entire world knows so why start from scratch. So, take Jay's idea and just make it 8b, it would be great. And I know a guy that knows a guy that might know another guy at YUM marketing, how can we lose ;)
 
Agree with everything except Ali Nejad being a good commentator :)

But Jay, if you enjoyed that match. They are actually streamed live on https://www.pokergo.com/

Phil has won the last 7 heads up duels (3x vs Esfandiari, 3x vs Negreanu, and 1x vs some sports analyst)

He's scheduled to play again on 8/25 against Tom Dwan.
 
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