A moment of revelation

[arnaldo]

LIke you, I like the game of Rotation but it is not nearly as interesting as One Pocket and the opportunity for banter between the players and commentators is far more limited.

Jay wrote:
"Like you, I like the game of Rotation but it is not nearly as interesting as One Pocket and the opportunity for banter between the players and commentators is far more limited."
----------------------------------------------------------------
Your intelligent awareness of this, Jay (and I would strongly advise: its vital role in designing your"pitch") *will* sell your concept to a network. It is *critical* for you to include a well-edited, fast-moving video compilation featuring -- rapid-fire -- *many* provocative examples from numerous seriously vocal One Pocket match videos within your initial presentation. Been there, done that on the network receiving end, with regard to identifying the key human interest audience-connecting glue, during brainstorming sessions for a couple years in my post-college advertising exec days.

You'll realize the centrality of this factor that you'll be citing (by inference) -- continual aggressive, sometimes cleverly strategic verbal inter-action between opposing primates. We all instinctively recognize and identify -- either as victim or provocateur -- with abusive or subtle woofers and woofing. Objectively examined, it's a beneficially survival-based, ingrained behavior no matter what level, what species or even what the major-to-minor threat or survival situation is.

I'm a sometime boxing fan and forever fan of boxing movies. All the great ones like "Rocky" and the relatively recent "Cinderella Man" and the oldies like "Raging Bull" or Kirk Douglas's and Anthony Quinn's "Champion", etc. all feature drama building pre-fight and intra-fight "woofing". It's universally visceral and Darwinian. Understand and build your package on that and you'll sell your concept to the decision makers.

Arnaldo ~ Listen to your grandpa, lad. (And I do know you're less-along in the "advanced state of youth" than Danny D and I.)

 

[KRJ]

I remember him. I think he took 3rd in the main event the year Raymer won. I've heard he was decent at pool.

Yeah, he was everywhere. He was on the big cash games on TV, he was very good player. He bet big and he came at you with many raises, just always had his foot on the pedal, and I hate a guy like that sitting next to me in a poker game, lol

Seemed to always win, seemed to be feared by everyone, then just disappeared. Some say there are just too many good players around now, not as many "fish" since these young folks play and play a lot. They spend all day playing on several monitors playing 12 games at a time and got very good, very fast.

 

[jay helfert]

Heck, they made a series about chess, The Queen's Gambit, and it was very good. They took a game, that many folks heard of but doubtful many play it, nor play at a decent level, but made a great series that was quite entertaining. I liked it a lot.

And a true pool icon wrote that book, Walter Tevis.

 

[jay helfert]

my question was in the grady rules its the ball closest to the head RAIL
but in a REAL GAME (no grady rules) is it not the ball closest to the HEAD STRING that gets spotted?

I prefer the ball being spotted is closest to the end (head) rail. The ball closest to the head string is more in play than the one closest to the rail, so I would prefer to leave that one there.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Heck, they made a series about chess, The Queen's Gambit, and it was very good. They took a game, that many folks heard of but doubtful many play it, nor play at a decent level, but made a great series that was quite entertaining. I liked it a lot.

And that show made google search for chess increase in the millions. And it made chess participation skyrocket .

 

[skogstokig]

This is going to sound strange and many of you might disagree with me, but that's okay, I can take the criticism.

I was watching a Heads Up poker match last night between two of the big names in poker - Phil Hellmuth and Antonio Esfandiari. They were both mic'd for sound and there were two excellent commentators, Nick Schulman and Ali Nejad. Poker is a far simpler game than pool and yet there is complexity to the betting patterns and infinite possibilities on the outcome of each hand. That makes it interesting, plus the fact that you can get lucky and win even if you've misplayed the hand. All this combines for good television viewing. NBCSN was the network airing this show. For two hours might I add.

My observation was the banter between the players before, during and after each hand was very entertaining. The thought processes that went into the playing of each hand was always well explained and analyzed by the coms. The show kept my attention for the entire two hours and I was left wanting more. Sad to say that watching two mostly quiet and stoic pool players play a rack (or ten) of 9-Ball is not nearly as interesting. And usually the commentary is equally uncompelling. Now, for my point.

9-Ball has been the go-to game for pool on TV for a long time and it's gone no where. Even diehards like us get tired of watching it. The racks are too routine for the most part and it's easy to connect the dots to see where the next shot is going. You almost don't need commentary to watch it. I began to think how could pool capitalize on what I was seeing here, and it struck me. The much maligned game of One Pocket is the answer! Yes I said ONE POCKET! Now you will ask me why I came to that conclusion. First of all it is a very cerebral game where a lot of thought goes into each shot and the options are limitless. This fact alone opens the door for discussion between the commentators and also allows the contestants (opponents) to engage in conversation as well. In most games of One Pocket there will be banter between the players, and that can only add interest to the match, IF you can hear it.

I think new viewers might be turned on by what they are seeing, not just another game of boring 9-Ball. It's an opportunity to challenge your audience and grab their attention. They might actually learn something about the intricacies of playing pool if they watch this show. Believe it or not, there are a lot of intelligent people who watch TV and are looking for new and interesting content to view. That's the people I want to watch a show like this. They would see pool in a whole new way. We would not just have to depend on the One Pocket geeks to have an audience.

One more thing. In case you didn't notice (I have), it is the big One Pocket matches that draw the most viewers on PPV streams. Can you imagine Scott Frost and Tony Chohan jawing away, while they make one astounding shot after another. I'd like to give a TV audience a dose of that. And who knows, maybe some day I will.

love the idea and to me, one hole is simply the best game invented. but there's a floor in the banter idea: not all great contemporary pool players speak english.

 

[jay helfert]

Jay wrote:
"Like you, I like the game of Rotation but it is not nearly as interesting as One Pocket and the opportunity for banter between the players and commentators is far more limited."
----------------------------------------------------------------
Your intelligent awareness of this, Jay (and I would strongly advise: its vital role in designing your"pitch") *will* sell your concept to a network. It is *critical* for you to include a well-edited, fast-moving video compilation featuring -- rapid-fire -- *many* provocative examples from numerous seriously vocal One Pocket match videos within your initial presentation. Been there, done that on the network receiving end, with regard to identifying the key human interest audience-connecting glue, during brainstorming sessions for a couple years in my post-college advertising exec days.

You'll realize the centrality of this factor that you'll be citing (by inference) -- continual aggressive, sometimes cleverly strategic verbal inter-action between opposing primates. We all instinctively recognize and identify -- either as victim or provocateur -- with abusive or subtle woofers and woofing. Objectively examined, it's a beneficially survival-based, ingrained behavior no matter what level, what species or even what the major-to-minor threat or survival situation is.

I'm a sometime boxing fan and forever fan of boxing movies. All the great ones like "Rocky" and the relatively recent "Cinderella Man" and the oldies like "Raging Bull" or Kirk Douglas's and Anthony Quinn's "Champion", etc. all feature drama building pre-fight and intra-fight "woofing". It's universally visceral and Darwinian. Understand and build your package on that and you'll sell your concept to the decision makers.

Arnaldo ~ Listen to your grandpa, lad. (And I do know you're less-along in the "advanced state of youth" than Danny D and I.)

Arnaldo, thank you so much for your astute advice. I do know when to pay attention! I will save this for the right time.

 

[jay helfert]

Yeah, he was everywhere. He was on the big cash games on TV, he was very good player. He bet big and he came at you with many raises, just always had his foot on the pedal, and I hate a guy like that sitting next to me in a poker game, lol

Seemed to always win, seemed to be feared by everyone, then just disappeared. Some say there are just too many good players around now, not as many "fish" since these young folks play and play a lot. They spend all day playing on several monitors playing 12 games at a time and got very good, very fast.

He's been back for several months now. Finally escaped from Macau. He was featured in the newest episodes of High Stakes Poker on PokerGo. I played at the same table with him twice at the WSOP years back. I liked him, a good guy and jam up poker player.

 

[middleofnowhere]

That's an interesting idea. Never thought of that one. I don't profess to know all the answers. In fact I like the questions this is prompting on here. Let me make one thing clear. I have no meetings planned and no sponsors lined up. No big shots are knocking at my door either. I'm just a guy whistling in the wind right now and I know it. But everything begins with an idea and I know that too.

FWIW, I had never watched a 1-pocket game until couple of weeks ago. After I kind of figured out what the rules were and how to play the basic game, in the end, I found myself bored. I think it was safety play that got to me. Shot after shot. Just one opinion here but I do watch quite a lot of youtube pool. Mostly 9-ball so far, some 10-ball, 8-ball.

There is not a better game to watch then one pocket, played by players who know what they are doing. Watching bad players can be awful. Especially if they just put balls up the table. I think any sport played badly is not watchable.

 

[alstl]

And that show made google search for chess increase in the millions. And it made chess participation skyrocket .

I used to play chess. It's a fascinating game and like pool the people who start when they are kids are the best. Pool has its share of characters but there are some really weird people who show up at chess tournaments.

Now the world champion in chess is a computer. The champions in pool are still humans.

 

[bbb]

I prefer the ball being spotted is closest to the end (head) rail. The ball closest to the head string is more in play than the one closest to the rail, so I would prefer to leave that one there.

thanks jay

 

[jay helfert]

I used to play chess. It's a fascinating game and like pool the people who start when they are kids are the best. Pool has its share of characters but there are some really weird people who show up at chess tournaments.

Now the world champion in chess is a computer. The champions in pool are still humans.

The beauty of pool is that there will never be a computer (or even a bank of computers) that can beat a world champion on the table. Pool has a decidedly mental aspect to it, but is still very much a physical endeavor, like Tennis and Golf.

 

[KRJ]

I used to play chess. It's a fascinating game and like pool the people who start when they are kids are the best. Pool has its share of characters but there are some really weird people who show up at chess tournaments.

Now the world champion in chess is a computer. The champions in pool are still humans.

I guess you have never been to an Illinois State pool tournament before lol

 

[BeiberLvr]

Dwan is still alive? Man, he just disappeared.

He mostly played a lot of cash games in Macau.

But recently played on the latest season of High Stakes Poker. Interesting hand he was involved in here with JRB who I believe is another poker/pool player.

 

[BeiberLvr]

------

 

[KRJ]

He mostly played a lot of cash games in Macau.

But recently played on the latest season of High Stakes Poker. Interesting hand he was involved in here with JRB who I believe is another poker/pool player.

WOW. What a hand. I would have thrown the Q's away. I would not liked it but I don't think I would have much choice. Damn, nice call by Dwan, he didn't want to call but then did. lol I just don't play with them kind of balls, lol

And JRB instant calling on AK. I really hate when folks play AK like they are Aces. You have not even made a hand yet and you are just gonna coin flip for a few hundred thousand. lol

I have no idea what the lady was doing in that hand, and trying to come over the top on Dwan. Pot odds would have dictated Dwan call no matter what, so her bluff was really not even a bluff, it was just plain out bad poker playing. Yeah, I know Dwan plays almost any hand, so she either guessed wrong but I still think he calls with A8 offsuit, lol

 

[smoochie]

I see your point, and I said it on another thread that we need to invent new game for pool to be watchable by non-pool players. We also need them to be mic'd, little banter is important. As well as some humiliation's I think is important in any sport, because humans love to watch one team or player humiliates another team/player, its just one thing that we sub-consciously want to see without even knowing it.

But one pocket? Maybe, it just need to have few tweaks I think. First of all the table need to be designed so that the viewer can understand which pocket is for which player, maybe some coloration into their pocket + clothes? I dont know. Because most of the time when I put one-pocket and a friend is next to me, even though he's a pool player he does not know what the players are doing or whats the objective.

How can we tweak the game of one pocket to make it simpler for a non-pool player to understand? Just needs to be easy to look at.

 

[Black-Balled]

What do you think about playing out the whole rack. In other words play like a three rack set first to 23. One of the best parts of one pocket is the end game when there's only a few balls on the table.

Agreed. Play out the entire rack.
I also like reducing the #of balls on the taBle so safes are more difficult and more effective

 

[Fatboy]

Jay,

I agree with your OP, mic’ed players seems like a good idea. It’s worth trying for sure, if it doesn’t work. Off they go or the down the middle idea of some “table talk” and some commentary might be a good idea. I fully agree the “hit it with low inside and get out to the middle of the table” that’s said 1624 times a match is not working.

On many occasions I’ve been on the rail with someone who doesn’t play pool and a 1p game is going and Ive explained it and they all say “chess on a pool table” they get it and get bored. People want to see balls pocketed. That’s what they understand. Moving loses their attention after 5 innings. They don’t understand how hard it is to beat a good player to the shot or what the trap is.

I know you’ll hate this, but KT had the right idea. I’m not sticking up for him or that mess. All I’m saying is play the game they all understand 8B. Is it best? Not really from a players perspective. But it’s not boring 9B and endless traps & moves in 1P.

There’s no up-table games to deal with by using funny rules to speed things up. 8B people understand and there are balls pocketed. Feed them what they are familiar with. 98.728636% of the population don’t understand pool well enough to get past 8B.

Btw Phil crushed Patrick in those HU matches. Good stuff.

best,
Fatboy

 

[lfigueroa]

This is going to sound strange and many of you might disagree with me, but that's okay, I can take the criticism.

I was watching a Heads Up poker match last night between two of the big names in poker - Phil Hellmuth and Antonio Esfandiari. They were both mic'd for sound and there were two excellent commentators, Nick Schulman and Ali Nejad. Poker is a far simpler game than pool and yet there is complexity to the betting patterns and infinite possibilities on the outcome of each hand. That makes it interesting, plus the fact that you can get lucky and win even if you've misplayed the hand. All this combines for good television viewing. NBCSN was the network airing this show. For two hours might I add.

My observation was the banter between the players before, during and after each hand was very entertaining. The thought processes that went into the playing of each hand was always well explained and analyzed by the coms. The show kept my attention for the entire two hours and I was left wanting more. Sad to say that watching two mostly quiet and stoic pool players play a rack (or ten) of 9-Ball is not nearly as interesting. And usually the commentary is equally uncompelling. Now, for my point.

9-Ball has been the go-to game for pool on TV for a long time and it's gone no where. Even diehards like us get tired of watching it. The racks are too routine for the most part and it's easy to connect the dots to see where the next shot is going. You almost don't need commentary to watch it. I began to think how could pool capitalize on what I was seeing here, and it struck me. The much maligned game of One Pocket is the answer! Yes I said ONE POCKET! Now you will ask me why I came to that conclusion. First of all it is a very cerebral game where a lot of thought goes into each shot and the options are limitless. This fact alone opens the door for discussion between the commentators and also allows the contestants (opponents) to engage in conversation as well. In most games of One Pocket there will be banter between the players, and that can only add interest to the match, IF you can hear it.

I think new viewers might be turned on by what they are seeing, not just another game of boring 9-Ball. It's an opportunity to challenge your audience and grab their attention. They might actually learn something about the intricacies of playing pool if they watch this show. Believe it or not, there are a lot of intelligent people who watch TV and are looking for new and interesting content to view. That's the people I want to watch a show like this. They would see pool in a whole new way. We would not just have to depend on the One Pocket geeks to have an audience.

One more thing. In case you didn't notice (I have), it is the big One Pocket matches that draw the most viewers on PPV streams. Can you imagine Scott Frost and Tony Chohan jawing away, while they make one astounding shot after another. I'd like to give a TV audience a dose of that. And who knows, maybe some day I will.

IMO, DOA.

The subtilties of 1pocket will be lost on the wider audience you are trying to draw.

So here is my counter for a wider TV audience: short rack banks with points per rail.

One railer -- one point, two railer -- two points, and so on.

People want to see "wow" shots and shots they cannot do. You show them guys shooting shots at 1pocket, that may take a lot of skill but are so subtle as to escape the average banger's ken, and it's a no-go.

The balls need to be flying. The games short and exciting. And when they start going for the three and four-railers to catch up, you might get an audience. Watch any exciting banks game from the DCC and you'll get my point.

Lou Figueroa