a question for Freddy the Beard

[lfigueroa]

Unless, I am missing something here, a valid question was posed to Freddy Bentivegna (Freddy The Beard), to which Freddy responded in kind, while not giving up the answer? I know the answer and I learned it from Freddy. I later validated the answer with Truman himself while warming up in banks at the 2008 Derby City Classic. In addition to Truman's validation, I also gained his insight on when and how to best use the "wrist turn" shot. Like Freddy, I am not too keen on giving up what I had to pay to learn, but in this case, I will happily do so, via PM only.

Cross-Side-Larry

"Learn from the best, and beat the rest" (And in this case, I did!)

Freddy has said that the wrist twist changes the behavior of the object ball.

When this was posed to the propeller heads they basically said, "I don't think so." That's why Freddy doesn't want to play -- he has all the knowledge and all the experience and doesn't like his explanations questioned. I believe he doesn't consider the science guys qualified enough. Not that I want to be Freddy's spokesmodel or anything.

Lou Figueroa
never a propeller head around
when you need one

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Hu:
It doesn't really matter why many things work, only that they work.

I know what you're saying, but this overlooks the most important thing: knowing how things work lets you apply them to shots other than the specific one (or two) you learned the technique for. It's the difference between learning shots and learning how to shoot (or "giving a man a fish" vs. "teaching him to fish").* [EDIT: I see you say the same thing in a later post, so we actually agree on this.]

...sweeping the tip of the cue across the face of the ball does give greater action than can be applied with any straight stroke other than full masse, it is a simple matter of friction.

I believe a straight stroke from a different angle can optimize friction, impact angle, squirt and contact time (and anything else you might be thinking of) just as well as sweeping the tip across the CB, but more accurately and consistently.

pj
chgo

*P.S. [Shameless plug alert]: This "teaching a man to fish" principle is also what I like most about Dr. Dave's "Video Encyclopedia of Pool Shots". He covers lots of basic shooting techniques, but presents them in such clear and accurate detail that you learn the shooting principles behind the shots, not just the specific shots themselves. If you pay close attention to the techniques and principles presented, no matter how basic the "shot" or how well you think you already know it, you'll be surprised how often they help in situations you didn't recognize before.

 

[Ball Banger]

Freddy has said that the wrist twist changes the behavior of the object ball.

When this was posed to the propeller heads they basically said, "I don't think so." That's why Freddy doesn't want to play -- he has all the knowledge and all the experience and doesn't like his explanations questioned. I believe he doesn't consider the science guys qualified enough. Not that I want to be Freddy's spokesmodel or anything.

Lou Figueroa
never a propeller head around
when you need one

Figueroa

you have the Amish phone book complex. You want your cover to be bright and colorful but offer no real information. If you are so bright then Explain the answer to the question asked. Oh and be sure to give the Propeller head aspect also.

 

[jay helfert]

As for me I don't trust all the science guys and their blanket explanations of things pool. Sure, sometimes they're right on but sometimes they miss a few things that real pool players understand about how the balls behave.

One example - The science guys usually talk about hitting the cue ball in one dimension - straight ahead. One tip left, a half tip right etc. etc. Keith would have driven them bananas. He rarely hit the cue ball on a direct line. His cue tip came into the cue ball at various angles. That is why he could execute certain shots that defied explanation.

Keith (and others like Buddy) know things about striking the cue ball that aren't in any book or on any video. Just because they can't explain what they're doing does not make it any less credible. I hope you get my drift.

 

[ShootingArts]

I know what you're saying, but you're overlooking the most important thing: knowing how things work lets you apply them to shots other than the specific one (or two) you learned the technique for. It's the difference between learning shots and learning how to shoot (or "giving a man a fish" vs. "teaching him to fish").

From my post two hours before this one of yours, you are only saying exactly what I have already said in different words.

Lou,


There is another important thing though, if we really understand correctly how something works then sometimes we can use the same principle for a different shot or to do something entirely different. Seeing something new and applying a variation of what we already know is much easier if we know exactly why the original shot worked.

Hu

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.
.
.
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This I simply disagree with. I don't believe sweeping the tip across the CB can create any effect (or any more friction) that can't also be achieved (more accurately) with a straight stroke from a different angle.

pj
chgo

pj,

Just because you disagree has little meaning, you would argue for days with a signpost. Two things make swiping across a cue ball done perfectly more effective than simply hitting it straight. The direction of force and the transfer of force.

As a for instance to try to help other readers understand, If we have a tire and wheel mounted so it is free spinning on an axle and bearings, I will swipe my hand across the tread of the tire and you are allowed to hit it one time with your hand from any direction you choose. I will bet anything we can both post that the tire will spin longer by the clock and further in distance as measured by the movement of a spot on the outside of the tire when I swipe my hand across the tire than when it is hit a single time.

The exact same thing applies to swiping across the face of a cue ball. First you get an angle of attack that can't be matched by a straight hit before it miscues. Secondly you get increased dwell time on the cue ball and increased transfer of the force needed to spin the cue ball.

Repeating for pj here since he has difficulty reading all of my posts and remembering what I just said, the weakness of the various swiping strokes are that they require perfect timing. A little late and the stroke isn't nearly as effective, a little early and it can be a disaster.

Hu

 

[CrossSideLarry]

wrist turn debate

Keith (and others like Buddy) know things about striking the cue ball that aren't in any book or on any video. Just because they can't explain what they're doing does not make it any less credible. I hope you get my drift.[/QUOTE]



Well said! In this case, we are not talking about keith McCready or Buddy Hall, we are talking about an equally qualified player in his preferred game (bank pool)

FYI, when Truman explained it to me and then took the time to show me how to do it, I too was amazed at the result. Many a sucker bet has been made on the pool table wherein, a seemingly impossible shot is made with ease by the person who knew the secret of the shot. This is what we are talking about here,,, I do believe!

Cross-Side-Larry

 

[lfigueroa]

Figueroa

you have the Amish phone book complex. You want your cover to be bright and colorful but offer no real information. If you are so bright then Explain the answer to the question asked. Oh and be sure to give the Propeller head aspect also.

Sorry, don't claim to be bright, just curious about how and why things work on a pool table

Lou Figueroa

 

[DrOnePocket]

The official "AZ Forum Thread Filter," Lou Figeroa, has attached his "expertise" to this thread already. That means that I will only respond to you via PM. I am much too much of a pool-knowledge egotist to subject my knowledge to his stamp of approval. Just imagine Kwai Chang Caine (David Carradine) of the TV show Kung Fu, questioning his Sensei Temple Master as to how the hell is he supposed to break those bricks with his puny little hand.

Beard
Keep in mind, I have 50 years of accumulated knowledge that I no longer feel comfortable sharing on the forums.

You may want to reconsider your stance. Seeing your posts on this forum over the last 2 or 3 years is why I bought your book. I bet I'm not the only one

 

[lfigueroa]

Keith would have driven them bananas. He rarely hit the cue ball on a direct line. His cue tip came into the cue ball at various angles. That is why he could execute certain shots that defied explanation.

Can you Wei Table one of these shots that defied explanation?

Lou Figueroa

 

[sfleinen]

Prairie Justice application to the mistakes of a few

You may want to reconsider your stance. Seeing your posts on this forum over the last 2 or 3 years is why I bought your book. I bet I'm not the only one

Freddy:

I agree -- and my name/moniker should be very familiar to you, because I've purchased a lot off your website.

"Don't punish the many for the mistakes of a few." Wanting to know the science behind a specific shot is one thing; lambasting the author because he/she offered a layman's explanation (in lieu of / lack of a scientific one) is quite another, and is uncalled for behavior.

It already looks, though, that "Prairie Justice" is being applied in that latter situation.

-Sean

 

[brandoncook26]

I don't post here very often, but I am on AZ everyday reading and trying to learn something. It's amazing to me how many people want to argue for the sake of argue itself. So many people have the idea that they know what the hell they're talking about. If you want to learn something you have to be willing to shut up sometimes in order to get the answer. Some people are scared to learn that they don't know everything I guess.

You would think that after every professional player has stopped posting on here, that some would get the idea. If I got paid to play pool, I wouldn't come on here to get lambasted by someone who plays 10 hours a week and "knows" more than I do.

This is not meant to anyone in general. It just seemed like a good time to post it. Good for Freddy and anyone else who doesn't want to see 50 years of their knowledge and life questioned by people who spend their whole day typing instead of shooting. I will take any knowledge and try to apply it to what I know. If it works, great!! If it doesn't, I disregard it and work on something else. I don't feel the need to improve my self esteem by bashing.

Freddy, anything you want to teach you can pm me and I will be more than happy to shut my mouth and become a better player. Sorry for the rant.

 

[lfigueroa]

I don't post here very often, but I am on AZ everyday reading and trying to learn something. It's amazing to me how many people want to argue for the sake of argue itself. So many people have the idea that they know what the hell they're talking about. If you want to learn something you have to be willing to shut up sometimes in order to get the answer. Some people are scared to learn that they don't know everything I guess.

You would think that after every professional player has stopped posting on here, that some would get the idea. If I got paid to play pool, I wouldn't come on here to get lambasted by someone who plays 10 hours a week and "knows" more than I do.

This is not meant to anyone in general. It just seemed like a good time to post it. Good for Freddy and anyone else who doesn't want to see 50 years of their knowledge and life questioned by people who spend their whole day typing instead of shooting. I will take any knowledge and try to apply it to what I know. If it works, great!! If it doesn't, I disregard it and work on something else. I don't feel the need to improve my self esteem by bashing.

Freddy, anything you want to teach you can pm me and I will be more than happy to shut my mouth and become a better player. Sorry for the rant.

Well said.

But you know, I think sometimes, if you know you don't know, and want to learn something, you have to ask questions and maybe not accept everything at face value. Pool is most certainly part art. But it is also part science, and few practitioners, professional or not, have a handle on both of those components. So it is nice, for some of us, to try and reconcile those two parts of the game. If you're not interested in the science, you can ignore all that. But there are some of us that do care and it's not about lambasting anyone and/or generating self esteem. It's just about caring about an important component of the game that some prefer to turn a blind eye to. It's different for all of us.

Lou Figueroa

 

[freddy the beard]

Amen, Larry

Unless, I am missing something here, a valid question was posed to Freddy Bentivegna (Freddy The Beard), to which Freddy responded in kind, while not giving up the answer? I know the answer and I learned it from Freddy. I later validated the answer with Truman himself while warming up in banks at the 2008 Derby City Classic. In addition to Truman's validation, I also gained his insight on when and how to best use the "wrist turn" shot. Like Freddy, I am not too keen on giving up what I had to pay to learn, but in this case, I will happily do so, via PM only.

Cross-Side-Larry


"Learn from the best, and beat the rest" (And in this case, I did!)

Thank you, Larry. You were one of the fortunate ones in the AZ/1pkt.org room at Derby City, to get to see Truman do his magic. You for one, dont need verification from high-speed, stop-action cameras. Instead you know how to do it, and aint too anxious to share it. Especially to those looking to disrespectfully scrutinize it.
Were you also there when Truman flabbergasted Wade Crane with a one-in-the-side hit at about 100mph?

Beard
Twist on, brother!

 

[lfigueroa]

...you know how to do it, and aint too anxious to share it. Especially to those looking to disrepectfully scrutinize it.

Scrutinize = Disrespect.

Well, that about says it all.

Lou Figueroa
no professionals were lambasted
nor was any self esteem generated
in the writing of this post

 

[alstl]

I would hate to see you go

Lou Figueroa

When Max Eberle came on here and asked for help to get to the world 14.1 championships you were the first one to jump into the thread and bash him for not posting enough tips here. As soon as he posts a tip you would be the first guy to jump on him.

Freddy, Grady and Jay post entertaining stories about a guy who would hustle people with a trick dog and you jump into the thread and go negative.

Now a guy asks Freddy, who wrote a book on bank pool, a question about banking and you start ripping Freddy and he decides not to share the tip publicly.

I think pain in the ass is kind for what you are doing here. People like you are the reason pros don't come on here and post more often. As soon as they post something the attention whores jump in and bash them in the hope they will get a reaction.

When the fans in Philadelphia booed Santa Claus I wouldn't be surprised if you were in the crowd.

 

[brandoncook26]

Well said.

But you know, I think sometimes, if you know you don't know, and want to learn something, you have to ask questions and maybe not accept everything at face value. Pool is most certainly part art. But it is also part science, and few practitioners, professional or not, have a handle on both of those components. So it is nice, for some of us, to try and reconcile those two parts of the game. If you're not interested in the science, you can ignore all that. But there are some of us that do care and it's not about lambasting anyone and/or generating self esteem. It's just about caring about an important component of the game that some prefer to turn a blind eye to. It's different for all of us.

Lou Figueroa

I didn't say it wasn't important to understand how things work, but many take an offensive approach to their line of questioning. There are many things that I know work, regardless of the science behind it. The people I take offense to most often are the ones who try to tell me it can't happen when I can clearly see that it does.

I have no quarrel with those who want to understand. I take issue with the ones who refuse to learn when they can't reason to prove it. People often argue with what they don't understand. If you want to learn, great. Some things work without understanding, regardless of if you can write the proof for it. 500 years ago, many couldn't explain the relation of the sun and earth, but the sun was there every morning.

 

[KRJ]

Good Post

I don't post here very often, but I am on AZ everyday reading and trying to learn something. It's amazing to me how many people want to argue for the sake of argue itself. So many people have the idea that they know what the hell they're talking about. If you want to learn something you have to be willing to shut up sometimes in order to get the answer. Some people are scared to learn that they don't know everything I guess.

You would think that after every professional player has stopped posting on here, that some would get the idea. If I got paid to play pool, I wouldn't come on here to get lambasted by someone who plays 10 hours a week and "knows" more than I do.

This is not meant to anyone in general. It just seemed like a good time to post it. Good for Freddy and anyone else who doesn't want to see 50 years of their knowledge and life questioned by people who spend their whole day typing instead of shooting. I will take any knowledge and try to apply it to what I know. If it works, great!! If it doesn't, I disregard it and work on something else. I don't feel the need to improve my self esteem by bashing.

Freddy, anything you want to teach you can pm me and I will be more than happy to shut my mouth and become a better player. Sorry for the rant.

Finally, someone came out and said it. I don't post that much on this site and it does seem like people are itching for a fight. Why the anger, why the questioning. If someone has an idea or tip, either you take it or you don't. This is Freddy's career you are talking about. I've been in the law enforcement and fraud investigation field for 20 years. Boy, does it piss me off when some newby wants to argue with me in a training class I'm providing. Could you imagine how anyone of this site feels being in whatever career they are in and then have their credentials continually questioned by people not in the field or new to the field?

I know most of the "haters" on this site would not tolerate this at their work place, by folks not in the business or their nextdoor neighbor. Man, I really hate CSI because everyone thinks they are investigators now!!! And yes, much of the stuff on CSI is BS.

Imagine all the bangers feel the same way now that they can play a "little" pool, they all become experts and question the real experts in the game instead of learning the game or at least being respectful. So why would anyone want to subject themselves to scrutiny and harrassment with over 50 years of playing pool to a few knuckleheads that will just bend the thread away from the subject of knowledge and instead into a pissing contest?? But hey, thanks for ruining it for everyone else. For that reason, I"m not going to respond in this thread any further to any deragatory comments I feel are coming my way... You may have the last word if it makes you feel good, but I'm not chomping at the bit.

 

[sfleinen]

Scrutinize = Disrespect.

Well, that about says it all.

Lou Figueroa
no professionals were lambasted
nor was any self esteem generated
in the writing of this post

Lou:

I'm going to have to respectfully (key operative word) disagree with you on this one. Unless I'm misunderstanding your verbal equation, scrutinize does NOT EQUAL disrespect. Scrutinize is just that -- scouring for, and analyzing details. One *can* respectfully scrutinize something; it's done in the academic world all the time with feedback on thesis papers, rebuttals to theories published in trade magazines, etc.

There is a difference between respectful and disrespectful analysis.

-Sean

 

[jay helfert]

Can you Wei Table one of these shots that defied explanation?

Lou Figueroa

No, but I'll be glad to Wei-Wei on your leg.

 

[lfigueroa]

The people I take offense to most often are the ones who try to tell me it can't happen when I can clearly see that it does.

I have no quarrel with those who want to understand. I take issue with the ones who refuse to learn when they can't reason to prove it. People often argue with what they don't understand. If you want to learn, great. Some things work without understanding, regardless of if you can write the proof for it. 500 years ago, many couldn't explain the relation of the sun and earth, but the sun was there every morning.

I guess you and I are reading different threads, because I think that at least I said right from the get go that it can happen and can be useful. So I'm not sure who has been saying otherwise.

Lou Figueroa