A word about learning sidespin

[The_JV]

I'm probably what you would consider a banger, though I'm a student of the game. I'm going to try to work on the rolling with english rather than drawing. I'm learning pattern play and I always seem to get in a line that requires drawing off rails and such. I need to just force myself to not draw or get BIH when I get offline so I can actually learn where I need to be on a shot. It's like I have a mental block and set myself up for having to draw, even though I know it's the wrong choice. Do you have any thoughts on getting into the mindset? I'd sure like to get a ball or two stronger.

Nothing wrong with being a banger.... Heck, I'm swinging for the fences a lot of the time. Until of course it really matters. It's fun to hit the CB a billion miles an hour, make the tough cut, and watch your opponent crumble as you manage the ridiculous shape. Drive for show, putt for dough as the golfers say.

The key with playing the "rolling english" game, is to be willing to take the tougher angle early on to get yourself in line. Being comfortable with back cutting into blind pockets is a skill set that needs to be developed. I wish I had one of those pool game softwares that people post screen shots of on this forum, and I'd give a simple example of what I'm talking about.

Keep in mind, my game isn't CJ approved, so use anything I say at your own risk

 

[7stud]

I wish I had one of those pool game softwares that people post screen shots of on this forum, and I'd give a simple example of what I'm talking about.

You can use the software for free online and create an image, which you can post here. See:

ChalkySticks Pad

ChalkySticks Pad is an advanced billiards / pool diagramming tool. Recreate any pool situation on a variety of different table types and share with others.

pad.chalkysticks.com

 

[ShootingArts]

If you've been doing your homework, you already have the metronome, so guitar seems like a natural transition!

My mind is in tangent mode today, but I'm thinking about selling my guitar and amp. I've never done much with it other than learn all the major and minor chords. I'm no good at it and have figured that working full time at 40 I don't have time to master a guitar now that I have a pool table in my basement. Anything requiring mastery, practice and dedication is kind of just taking time away from pool. I've never had much fun jamming or playing guitar and would not consider myself anything beyond beginner level. I love music, but I have a record player and youtube music if I want to listen to some masters of sound.

I could probably "magically" turn my guitar and amp into a new pool stick if I put it up for sale, so I think that's what I'll do.



I'm probably what you would consider a banger, though I'm a student of the game. I'm going to try to work on the rolling with english rather than drawing. I'm learning pattern play and I always seem to get in a line that requires drawing off rails and such. I need to just force myself to not draw or get BIH when I get offline so I can actually learn where I need to be on a shot. It's like I have a mental block and set myself up for having to draw, even though I know it's the wrong choice. Do you have any thoughts on getting into the mindset? I'd sure like to get a ball or two stronger.

As often as not you made the wrong choice two or three shots ago. That led you down a path of no return, or no return without a major correction. Take the time to consider all possibilities to pocket a ball. Often there are a couple pockets you can put it in with almost equal ease but the pocket you choose will have a significant affect on the rest of your pattern.

I very much dislike the running three ball pattern. That means you have to reconsider after every shot. I like finding the whole pattern before starting an inning, all the way to the money ball or a safety. Sometimes you want to run a ball or two to get to a much stronger safety even if you are going to play safe. Having the whole pattern in mind lets you flow around the table in one continuous action. Can't do that if you are adding a ball every shot. Of course if you mess up the pattern you have to regroup but regroup all the way to completion again if you get another shot.

Just a minor side benefit, often hard on the other player's morale if they are struggling a little bit and you appear to be just loafing around the table. Willie Mosconi probably saw patterns as well as anyone alive, then or now. He ran a lot of balls off in a hurry, not because he hurried but because he had a plan and very little wasted motion. That pace leaves little time for doubt or second guessing too.

Hu

 

[The_JV]

I like finding the whole pattern before starting an inning, all the way to the money ball or a safety. Sometimes you want to run a ball or two to get to a much stronger safety even if you are going to play safe. Having the whole pattern in mind lets you flow around the table in one continuous action.

I honestly didn't know there was another way to play....lol. I always have a plan to the end of my inning. Whether that be a purposeful pattern to a safety or the money ball.

The only game where I entertain continually pattern review is 14.1. ...and that is only early in a rack.

Obviously things are fluid and adjustments are required at times. If I was able to plan and execute every rack I'd be on the pro circuit...lol

 

[ShootingArts]

I honestly didn't know there was another way to play....lol. I always have a plan to the end of my inning. Whether that be a purposeful pattern to a safety or the money ball.

The only game where I entertain continually pattern review is 14.1. ...and that is only early in a rack.

Obviously things are fluid and adjustments are required at times. If I was able to plan and execute every rack I'd be on the pro circuit...lol

One of the common bits of advice is to play three balls ahead, by which people usually mean the ball being played and two more. They often say to do this even after planning out your entire inning. Why I don't know. If you really planned out your whole inning there is no reason to rethink or keep adding balls. There is no way you can achieve the zone or even flow when you interrupt both after every shot. While I rarely achieve what I consider the zone shooting pool, flow used to be readily obtained when I put in the hours. Even now flow comes and goes, I shoot multiple shots as one continuous action without verbal thought, the conscious mind butting in. One sure sign I am getting old and gimpy, I often play shape to shoot several shots without straightening up. A bad habit I should break before it gets too entrenched.

Hu

 

[Protractor]

I think and from experience I believe that it makes way more sense to spend much more time learning to position the cue ball by getting the correct angle on each shot rather than one using sidespin very aggressively just because you are not getting the correct angle on a shot that would lead to proper position for the next shot with more center cue ball than sidespin.

That's what playing 14.1 is all about- learning cue ball control with proper angles and speed control. That's what pattern play is all about- moving from ball to ball with the least amount of cue ball work. To each his own, but if I am going to teach someone this game- it is not by having them shoot endless sidespin shots- rather they spend the hours learning cue ball control via 14.1. there are hundreds of 14.1 videos available for free that one can use to begin and to guide them through the 14.1 learning curve.

Constant need for severe sidespin usually means that someone is "out of line" way too much and out of line means that one did not get the proper angle. Better to spend more practice time learning to stay "in line" than expecting to be "out of line" very often.

That is my default approach. I'll add a touch of spin here and there as might be required but usually just use draw or follow. If I can see the connections between the balls i can usually come up with a pattern that minimizes need for english.

That said, english can come in real handy when walking up to the table after your opponent got done mangling it.

 

[boogieman]

Nothing wrong with being a banger.... Heck, I'm swinging for the fences a lot of the time. Until of course it really matters. It's fun to hit the CB a billion miles an hour, make the tough cut, and watch your opponent crumble as you manage the ridiculous shape. Drive for show, putt for dough as the golfers say.

The key with playing the "rolling english" game, is to be willing to take the tougher angle early on to get yourself in line. Being comfortable with back cutting into blind pockets is a skill set that needs to be developed. I wish I had one of those pool game softwares that people post screen shots of on this forum, and I'd give a simple example of what I'm talking about.

Keep in mind, my game isn't CJ approved, so use anything I say at your own risk

As often as not you made the wrong choice two or three shots ago. That led you down a path of no return, or no return without a major correction. Take the time to consider all possibilities to pocket a ball. Often there are a couple pockets you can put it in with almost equal ease but the pocket you choose will have a significant affect on the rest of your pattern.

I very much dislike the running three ball pattern. That means you have to reconsider after every shot. I like finding the whole pattern before starting an inning, all the way to the money ball or a safety. Sometimes you want to run a ball or two to get to a much stronger safety even if you are going to play safe. Having the whole pattern in mind lets you flow around the table in one continuous action. Can't do that if you are adding a ball every shot. Of course if you mess up the pattern you have to regroup but regroup all the way to completion again if you get another shot.

Just a minor side benefit, often hard on the other player's morale if they are struggling a little bit and you appear to be just loafing around the table. Willie Mosconi probably saw patterns as well as anyone alive, then or now. He ran a lot of balls off in a hurry, not because he hurried but because he had a plan and very little wasted motion. That pace leaves little time for doubt or second guessing too.

Hu

Thanks for the advice. Would you say it's worthwhile to write down the pattern on some notebook paper or such until patterning the whole rack becomes more second nature? I suppose it could also help set up similar situations for practice sessions.

 

[The_JV]

Thanks for the advice. Would you say it's worthwhile to write down the pattern on some notebook paper or such until patterning the whole rack becomes more second nature? I suppose it could also help set up similar situations for practice sessions.

Ya maybe... That's not something I ever did, but it certainly sounds like a great idea.

 

[JC]

I have better results shifting my body for BHE than my arm. A very slight shift at the knees and hips after the final warm up stroke does the trick if you only want a tip or less. Just feels better than pulling my stroke arm sideways.

Robin Dreyer has since taught me how to actually aim these shots and I don't use BHE very much any more.

 

[Poolmanis]

I like to use minimal sidespin but i also practice shots that need a LOT of sidespin. My take on subject is one need to shoot always the "right" shot. If it needs sidespin, then use it. If you can´t do it. Practice that shot until you can.
If player wants to get really good. Eventually goal should be able to shoot any angle, any speed with any spin. If player does not try make balls(and miss some while trying, but it is called learning) with sidespin he maybe not miss so much but he also shoots himself to leg.. on learning game.
Best way to learn sidespin IMO is playing straight rail carom and 3 cushion carom. There you need English almost every shot and one learns fast new insights. in example: how outside and inside affects cueball deflection angle from ball after it hit the OB.

Another good way to learn good shots with sidespin is Bert Kinister´s : 60 minute workout. Best instructional video ever made IMO.

 

[dr_dave]

I have better results shifting my body for BHE than my arm. A very slight shift at the knees and hips after the final warm up stroke does the trick if you only want a tip or less. Just feels better than pulling my stroke arm sideways.

That is definitely the best way to do a BHE pivot. An FHE pivot can be done with a very small shift of the bridge hand, with everything else still.

 

[The_JV]

You can use the software for free online and create an image, which you can post here.

Do you have any thoughts on getting into the mindset? I'd sure like to get a ball or two stronger.

Ok... I just threw this together and tried to make it as complicated as possible....lol

You have above two methods of getting on the 3 from the 2 to reach the 4. Solid lines are the typical norm for those apt to use draw/side. The dotted is a path that utilizes nothing but natural angles and follow. I'm not saying one is more valid another. Just an eample of where you can chose to "control" the CB with spin, or let it take a natural path.

However, if I was critique the options here how it plays out...:
Solid Line: The solid line path requires you to stun the CB when shooting the 1 with a tiny amount of draw. The shot on the 2 then could either be played with one of three options, (top with touch of side), (bunch of side), (possibly a hair of draw). The first option protects you from dropping the CB in the opposite side pocket and has the best odds of keeping you below the 3. The last option requires decent touch. All three have you crossing the shot line for the 3 to reach the 4.

Dotted Line: This path allows you to roll the 1 in the side with only enough pace to ensure the CB hits the long rail. The idea being that you have a large margin of error (>1ft) and under or over hitting the shot still results in more than enough angle to naturallly pot the 2 to reach the 3. The drawing shows a good amount of back cut which may be uncomfortable for some, but this can be adjusted for personal preference. Now the shot on the 2 is played with two rails. The natural path of the CB follows the shot line for the 3 to reach the 4, and has to be extremely over hit to screw up the shape on the 3. This approach reaps massive benefits when playing on a fast table.

Again, not promoting either option. Just an example where one can make the choice to use follow with running english. I'd probably opt for the solid line path when in potting mode and not in the mood to walk around the table. The dotted path is my method of choice when the table is fast or I haven't sorted out weight yet. It also the my preferred line if I'm trying to lengthen my inning and frustrate my opponent.

 

[ShootingArts]

Thanks for the advice. Would you say it's worthwhile to write down the pattern on some notebook paper or such until patterning the whole rack becomes more second nature? I suppose it could also help set up similar situations for practice sessions.

Breaking and then writing down the pattern sounds like a good idea. I never get the same randomness throwing balls out that I get breaking. If you can't read a whole nine ball pattern break nine then take the top three remaining off to use with the next break. You can take more off too, whatever leaves you confident to run the planned pattern. The main thing is to execute the pattern successfully so you learn good patterns and gain confidence in them.

When I was learning pattern play I could also play chess at work when times were slow. I wouldn't recommend chess with a table sitting there but if you don't have a table a chess set is a good substitute for learning to see patterns. Got to be able to execute too but I think one of Efren's strengths is his love of chess. I suspect he sees ahead better than many pool players.

Since I have poked one sacred cow in this thread I might as well poke another, breaking up trouble spots early. It depends. Have a plan to break them out from the beginning. If something is going to have to be forced to break them out then it might be a good idea to try to break them early. However, no need to go to great efforts to break up a cluster early if it will be easy to break up later. Aside from anything else, if you do have a wheel run off of your wagon, that cluster may be your friend when the other person is shooting. One of the tables that just didn't spread and has multiple headaches I am often inclined to let my opponent solve a few for me.

My goal is to never pocket a ball the average beginner couldn't pocket. Easy shots let me do more with the cue ball.

Hu

 

[boogieman]

Ok... I just threw this together and tried to make it as complicated as possible....lol
View attachment 577882
You have above two methods of getting on the 3 from the 2 to reach the 4. Solid lines are the typical norm for those apt to use draw/side. The dotted is a path that utilizes nothing but natural angles and follow. I'm not saying one is more valid another. Just an eample of where you can chose to "control" the CB with spin, or let it take a natural path.

However, if I was critique the options here how it plays out...:
Solid Line: The solid line path requires you to stun the CB when shooting the 1 with a tiny amount of draw. The shot on the 2 then could either be played with one of three options, (top with touch of side), (bunch of side), (possibly a hair of draw). The first option protects you from dropping the CB in the opposite side pocket and has the best odds of keeping you below the 3. The last option requires decent touch. All three have you crossing the shot line for the 3 to reach the 4.

Dotted Line: This path allows you to roll the 1 in the side with only enough pace to ensure the CB hits the long rail. The idea being that you have a large margin of error (>1ft) and under or over hitting the shot still results in more than enough angle to naturallly pot the 2 to reach the 3. The drawing shows a good amount of back cut which may be uncomfortable for some, but this can be adjusted for personal preference. Now the shot on the 2 is played with two rails. The natural path of the CB follows the shot line for the 3 to reach the 4, and has to be extremely over hit to screw up the shape on the 3. This approach reaps massive benefits when playing on a fast table.

Again, not promoting either option. Just an example where one can make the choice to use follow with running english. I'd probably opt for the solid line path when in potting mode and not in the mood to walk around the table. The dotted path is my method of choice when the table is fast or I haven't sorted out weight yet. It also the my preferred line if I'm trying to lengthen my inning and frustrate my opponent.

Thanks for your thoughts on this, I'll set them up soon and try both. I would definitely lean toward the solid line pattern currently, but I get what you're saying on the dashed line one. You can do either or a mix of the two, but seeing the difference between them is helpful for learning more natural roll and follow.

Breaking and then writing down the pattern sounds like a good idea. I never get the same randomness throwing balls out that I get breaking. If you can't read a whole nine ball pattern break nine then take the top three remaining off to use with the next break. You can take more off too, whatever leaves you confident to run the planned pattern. The main thing is to execute the pattern successfully so you learn good patterns and gain confidence in them.

When I was learning pattern play I could also play chess at work when times were slow. I wouldn't recommend chess with a table sitting there but if you don't have a table a chess set is a good substitute for learning to see patterns. Got to be able to execute too but I think one of Efren's strengths is his love of chess. I suspect he sees ahead better than many pool players.

Since I have poked one sacred cow in this thread I might as well poke another, breaking up trouble spots early. It depends. Have a plan to break them out from the beginning. If something is going to have to be forced to break them out then it might be a good idea to try to break them early. However, no need to go to great efforts to break up a cluster early if it will be easy to break up later. Aside from anything else, if you do have a wheel run off of your wagon, that cluster may be your friend when the other person is shooting. One of the tables that just didn't spread and has multiple headaches I am often inclined to let my opponent solve a few for me.

My goal is to never pocket a ball the average beginner couldn't pocket. Easy shots let me do more with the cue ball.

Hu

Sounds like solid advice. I rarely run a rack of 9 ball. I'm much better at 8 ball and straight pool like clusters. I'm working on it though. I can hand with much better players on 8 ball but get a good whipping on 9, I'm trying to get my head wrapped around it. The other day I ran a rack of 9 ball (BIH at start). I think I've only done that a couple other times. It was an easy rack, but I figured it out from after the break. It was a cosmo rack, but I got it. I think I might drop back to 5 or 6 or 7 balls as I'm really just working on patterns and even a short rack will be good for learning. I'll try to treat it like a progressive drill, once it gets easier I'll add a ball. I usually run 1-6 and leave my opponent an easy out, quite frustrating but I'll get it once I put some more work in.

 

[Black-Balled]

Me no english.

Tarzan only use american

 

[straightline]

Me no english.

Tarzan only use american

Learn Americlish. Avoid trap.

 

[ShootingArts]

Thanks for your thoughts on this, I'll set them up soon and try both. I would definitely lean toward the solid line pattern currently, but I get what you're saying on the dashed line one. You can do either or a mix of the two, but seeing the difference between them is helpful for learning more natural roll and follow.

Sounds like solid advice. I rarely run a rack of 9 ball. I'm much better at 8 ball and straight pool like clusters. I'm working on it though. I can hand with much better players on 8 ball but get a good whipping on 9, I'm trying to get my head wrapped around it. The other day I ran a rack of 9 ball (BIH at start). I think I've only done that a couple other times. It was an easy rack, but I figured it out from after the break. It was a cosmo rack, but I got it. I think I might drop back to 5 or 6 or 7 balls as I'm really just working on patterns and even a short rack will be good for learning. I'll try to treat it like a progressive drill, once it gets easier I'll add a ball. I usually run 1-6 and leave my opponent an easy out, quite frustrating but I'll get it once I put some more work in.

We have all been there where we didn't have the mental game to run nine balls or we are choking when the money ball is in sight! We move past these issues but the amount I drank went up substantially while I was struggling with these things!

Loser breaks does let the loser get to the table but if their break and win percentage, not just break and run, if their break and win percentage is less than fifty percent loser breaks just clears the junk out of the way for the winner. I hated nine ball on a coin-op table! Everybody wanted to use all of the balls so after the nine came six ball. I don't know what my percentage was breaking six ball but it was double digits less than my percentage making balls on a nine ball break.

Winning nine ball then giving the money back with a wide open six ball table annoyed hell out of me! Funny thing, I went somewhere they always played the six ball rack first. Win or lose the six ball I was going to come roaring back most nine ball racks and I didn't mind six ball then nine ball near as much as nine and then six although I am sure my overall win/loss record was exactly the same! Our minds can be funny things!

Hu

 

[Cornerman]

A word about sidespin. I've had this come up quite a bit with different students the last month so I felt a general public service announcement was in order.

There are different approaches but the one I support by far is FEEL. The two other approaches I've seen are: 1) People struggling with the idea of back hand English, and 2) People that give up on sidespin because they can't stomach the short term impact to their pocketing.

Listen, I know a few people use BHE, but they are in a very small minority. The problem I have is it doesn't solve the need for feel. On a sidespin shot the cue ball deflects off the tip, curves back towards the shot line en route, then throws the object ball upon contact. How much depends entirely on swing speed and table conditions. So while a system can get you in the right general area, there is no escaping that you will need to develop a feel to make it work.

As for giving up on sidespin, this is a huge blunder I've seen so many times this year I am shocked. How can you spend years and decades playing a beautiful game like pool and resign yourself to slugging balls around with center-ball hits, shrugging off the fact you'll only be live to run about 50% of the tables where a limited tool box will suffice, and seeing only incremental improvement for half a lifetime? Why?

Sidespin isn't that hard. When you get down on the shot your tip should be where you want to strike the cue ball and you should be on the shot line you feel that already accounts for deflection/swerve/throw. When you're down you can fine tune the tip and aim slightly. If it's more than a fine tune rise up, air stroke, and reset.
From there all you have to do to master sidespin is miss 1,000 shots. That's it. Take my thousand miss challenge. Shoot with extreme sidespin on a variety of shots until you miss 33 times, and do that every day for a month. Ta-da. You can now make balls with sidespin and there is a new dimension and future for your pool game.

Don't buy into the whole 'pros stick to one tip from center'. That is absurd. Every strong player spins the ball like crazy unless they are playing straight pool exactly and their cue ball isn't moving more than 6-18" per shot. And for the love of all that is holy don't try to control all of this analytically. It can't be controlled consciously, you need to delegate this to your subconscious and give it the thousand shots worth of data for your inner computer to figure it out. I've spent time at the table with a lot of great players and none of them are making manual adjustments at the table. They just picture the shot they want to execute and feel it on in. If you can't do that yet then start missing and you'll be there before you know it.

There's not much about this post that isn't excellent. Unfortunately, you'll get people dissecting and disagreeing with you rather than just stepping back and thinking about who you are and why you would say such things.

An interesting note on backhand english, I've been using it as my way using english in my normal tournament and competitive play probably longer than 99.99% of the posters on here. Interestingly enough, I learned it from Bob Jewett's FAQ on Aim & Pivot Testing, which was presented as a test only on how to determine how much squirt one's shaft has. But I immediately saw the value and incorporated it in actual use. That was back in 1996 (the FAQ was something like 1993), a few years before Hal Houle introduced to the internet forums the term "Backhand English," which differs from Aim & Pivot in that Hal had no interest in (or knowledge of) pivot points (people will argue with me on this, but they're wrong). Considering most cues of the time didn't have low squirt characteristics, there wasn't the focus on pivot points. The odd thing is that with my few students, teaching Backhand English and the more precise Aim & Pivot Method is not something I ever like to do. It's a big philosophy shift, and I'd rather have my students stick to more traditional methods and understand the "feel" of their shots.

As always, great post Demetrius!

 

[Protractor]

I started using what might be called BHE in 1970-71 when I first learned to play. I was doing it purely by feel and didn't quite realize what I was doing until later on.

I lined up center ball, no shift, no pivot before the shot but when I stroked the ball I pivoted the cue at the last instant just before it struck the CB when I wanted spin sort of how a tennis player might apply spin, and still do it that way.

I learned on my own, no teacher, vids or books. I do take advantage of vids and books nowadays but other than that, still self taught.

Not sure I would recommend my way to a learning player and I don't know if I could teach it even if I wanted to. But it does speak to the feel aspect of spin.

 

[alocker]

I just wanted to throw a little input into this thread from a complete novice point of view. I'm 41 and grew up messing around in my buddies basements and occasionally Pinky's in Tempe AZ. The only thing I knew about English was how not to follow an object ball resulting in a scratch. I just installed a 9' table in my basement and checked out this thread. I had to Google backhand English. I just started messing around with it and it seems to work very well for someone with very little experience.

Hopefully I'm not using it wrong but for an almost 90 degree cut on a rail it works like a charm. Trying to get a perfect cut resulted in a pocketed ball maybe 5% of the time. Now I shoot the rail with heavy sidespin and now at least 33% drop