about this shot

evergruven said:
ah thanks, I can kinda picture that..but how/why does the inside spin eventually become outside?
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As bbb stated, the cb loses the inside spin when it strikes the end cushion, and then it rolls off of that cushion (which produces a little left/running spin), then it just rolls into the side cushion and bounces out.

You really have to stroke a shot to keep inside spin on the ball after it strikes a cushion, and the angle that it hits cushion can't be too steep or the ball will lose its spin and come out rolling.
 
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bbb said:
after the end rail "chokes" the inside spin
the inside spin is gone and the cue ball picks up alittle running english off the side rial would be my answer
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BC21 said:
It likely loses the inside spin when it strikes the end cushion, and then it rolls off of that cushion (which produces a little left spin), then it just rolls into the side cushion and bounces out.

You really have to stroke a shot to keep inside spin on the ball after it strikes a cushion, and the angle that it hits cushion can't be too steep or the ball will lose its spin and come out rolling.
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I get that the inside spin wears off and so the cb just rolls..but in this case, the cb seems to not just be rolling, but rolling out with running english- in this case, the opposite spin I'm putting on the cb in the first place. that's the part I don't get, or am I wrong that this is happening?
 
evergruven said:
I get that the inside spin wears off and so the cb just rolls..but in this case, the cb seems to not just be rolling, but rolling out with running english- in this case, the opposite spin I'm putting on the cb in the first place. that's the part I don't get, or am I wrong that this is happening?
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You're right. The angle the cb takes into the 1st rail (especially with a little draw on it), results in the ball coming off with left/running english.

There are some very interesting and creative shots that can be played with this type of spin and angle when needed.
 
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evergruven said:
questions:
do you like hitting the shot this way? why/why not?
why does this shot work?
can you please explain how this seemingly "wrong" spin ends up turning into nice spin for position?
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I think you've gotten answers to the second and third of your questions that give you a better understanding of the shot. That's important, anytime you gain more knowledge on the way the balls work it should benefit your game.

But it's not a very viable way to shoot that particular shot. That's also important to know if you're to improve. Reread Fran's post as she describes the 3 other ways. Which one to use depends on other factors which I'll not detail atm but all of them are better for one specific reason.
Larger margin of error. That's the name of the game in this game when playing position.

If you spend some time shooting it all 4 ways I'd guess you may have the least success with the way you described.
 
sparkle84 said:
I think you've gotten answers to the second and third of your questions that give you a better understanding of the shot. That's important, anytime you gain more knowledge on the way the balls work it should benefit your game.

But it's not a very viable way to shoot that particular shot. That's also important to know if you're to improve. Reread Fran's post as she describes the 3 other ways. Which one to use depends on other factors which I'll not detail atm but all of them are better for one specific reason.
Larger margin of error. That's the name of the game in this game when playing position.

If you spend some time shooting it all 4 ways I'd guess you may have the least success with the way you described.
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thanks for the reply. the way I pictured the shot is actually a bit inaccurate- there was originally more angle on the one, making shooting with high right much less instinctive, and shooting with outside english more attractive (to me, anyway). I understand that shooting with inside english is counterintuitive, if only because the shape you get on the six is short-side position, when more room is available. more than anything, I just want to understand why and how the low-inside english shot works. as usual, I've gotten help from this thread- thanks again.
 
sparkle84 said:
... But it's not a very viable way to shoot that particular shot....
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I think you should start the planning for a lot of shots with: What happens if I just roll the cue ball without any side spin -- just natural, rolling follow?

@evergruven, do you know the answer to that question for that shot? I think you need to know that answer before you start looking for other solutions that are more complicated.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think you should start the planning for a lot of shots with: What happens if I just roll the cue ball without any side spin -- just natural, rolling follow?

@evergruven, do you know the answer to that question for that shot? I think you need to know that answer before you start looking for other solutions that are more complicated.
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hi bob, yours is a good question, and one I do think about. I'm just trying to learn about spin effects I'm not already understanding of.
 
evergruven said:
hi bob, yours is a good question, and one I do think about. I'm just trying to learn about spin effects I'm not already understanding of.
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Have you tried the shot without side spin?

As for your original question, as others have pointed out, whether the rail puts running side spin on a ball that goes into it with reverse depends on how much reverse is on the ball. You were using only about 25% of maximum right side spin for it to be reversed on the first rail into left side spin. One of the shots Fran described uses much heavier side spin to come straight off the end rail.

It is possible that you are not yet using maximum side spin on any shot. Here is a test for that. Shoot straight up the table one diamond from the right side rail. The cue ball should start a diamond from the right side and it should hit on the far end rail a diamond from the corner pocket. Use maximum left side spin. You should be able to pocket a ball hanging in the left side pocket.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
Have you tried the shot without side spin?

As for your original question, as others have pointed out, whether the rail puts running side spin on a ball that goes into it with reverse depends on how much reverse is on the ball. You were using only about 25% of maximum right side spin for it to be reversed on the first rail into left side spin. One of the shots Fran described uses much heavier side spin to come straight off the end rail.

It is possible that you are not yet using maximum side spin on any shot. Here is a test for that. Shoot straight up the table one diamond from the right side rail. The cue ball should start a diamond from the right side and it should hit on the far end rail a diamond from the corner pocket. Use maximum left side spin. You should be able to pocket a ball hanging in the left side pocket.
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not on this shot, but I appreciate the reminder to try playing without sidespin, since I often play with it
I think when I originally shot with inside, I was using a good bit of draw and killed the cb some
I think that helped the cb filter into position instead of taking off, but I'm not sure..got to play with it more
if I haven't hit the cb with maximum spin yet..well, that's an exciting idea 😆 I'll try the test tho, thanks!
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think you should start the planning for a lot of shots with: What happens if I just roll the cue ball without any side spin -- just natural, rolling follow?

@evergruven, do you know the answer to that question for that shot? I think you need to know that answer before you start looking for other solutions that are more complicated.
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This. Natural roll and tangent lines need to be known and used as reference points for position shots. That is step one.
 
sparkle84 said:
I don't like hitting it that way. The margin of error is very small.
There are 3 better ways to hit this shot.
Doing it the way you described you need perfect tip position, stroke and speed for success.
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Please post a video using this shot so I can see you execute your three different shot choices.
 
a little update, with larry/bbb's (smart) suggestion to use a stripe ball as a cb to observe spin, I set up the pictured shot a bunch of times-

results were as follows:
the "extra" (outside) spin I thought I was somehow getting from using the inside spin doesn't exist. appears just to be natural roll off of multiple rails.
tried it at different speeds and contact points, and got different results, but none of them included anything I would perceive as unusual or surprising
really glad I tried this.

also tried other ways to hit it per bob's/other folks' reco, straight top and stun- top didn't help me here, stun gets around the 3 but is touchy
@measureman had the good idea from jump, hitting straight draw was a nice and smooth way to hit this shot, cb to center table as predicted

thanks again, all(y)
 

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evergruven said:
a little update, with larry/bbb's (smart) suggestion to use a stripe ball as a cb to observe spin, I set up the pictured shot a bunch of times-

results were as follows:
the "extra" (outside) spin I thought I was somehow getting from using the inside spin doesn't exist. appears just to be natural roll off of multiple rails.
tried it at different speeds and contact points, and got different results, but none of them included anything I would perceive as unusual or surprising
really glad I tried this.

also tried other ways to hit it per bob's/other folks' reco, straight top and stun- top didn't help me here, stun gets around the 3 but is touchy
@measureman had the good idea from jump, hitting straight draw was a nice and smooth way to hit this shot, cb to center table as predicted

thanks again, all(y)
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always glad to help......(y)
 
Island Drive said:
Depends on the speed of the cuestick.

To stay on topic/OP.
Your aiming a little more right of the contact point on the obj. ball, BUT the speed of the cue ball when hit hard and harder, squirts whitey to the left towards more & more, towards the contact point, but the speed needed to move your CB the distance you want determines your total/walkup/stance/cueing into the shot at hand.
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Are you saying 'more speed makes more squirt'?
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I don't know if that's what was meant, but it's a common misconception. Because the cue is almost never level, most side spin shots swerve at least a little. More speed allows less swerve, which looks like more squirt.

pj
chgo

(Exaggerated for clarity.)
View attachment 720259
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But he stated more speed gives more squirt. More speed would give less swerve which would look like less squirt. I may be wrong on this.
 
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Island Drive said:
Cue ball squirt yes.
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Careful testing has shown that the speed of the shot has very little effect on the amount of squirt.

On a faster shot there is less swerve to the target so there seems to be more squirt. Many people confuse the two factors.

Some people think new (slippery) cloth also causes more squirt but it is the same situation. There is later/wider swerve on new cloth so it looks like more squirt.
 
The lighter the cue ball the more outward push of whitey.
Punch a beach horizontal on the right (3 o'clock) two fists from center, its goes Left.
Has too.
One tip off center horizontal cueing left or right, doesn't matter, I can easily push the cue ball left or right, easily missing my contact point on the object ball.
 
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