ABR with Jay Helfert and Johnny Archer

buckshotshoey

buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First I would like to say....good job to Jay on the interview. Next I would like to touch on the topic of "rack mechanics". Mr Archer made his beliefs on the break pretty clear. He advocates making the break harder for the pro level players....something many people argued against here on AZB. He was VERY ornate in his beliefs on racking your own rules. Says it can cause a lot of problems.....paraphrasing here..."he has seen more arguments during rack your own verses the old way of rack for your opponent".

My 1st question is.....Is it ethical or not to purposely manipulate the rack to gain an advantage? I think....HELL NO! I always try to give the best rack possible to my opponent. I was in an 9 ball tournament one time and my opponent walked to the rack to check it. He said its not that I don't trust you but I just want to see where any gaps might be so I know where to break from. I said ...no problem...if I were a woman, I would get breast implants just for you.! After a puzzled look on his face, I continued. ... you will always get a tight rack out of me!

Johnny said in the interview that he never learned to manipulate the rack and never will. He went on to say that the rack mechanics will always have an advantage over someone that does not know how to do it. I think everyone should learn how to do it. Then everyone will recognize when its being done to them.

Question 2....are there any videos or explainations out there on how to do it?
I don't what to learn HOW to do it, just to recognize it when it is being done to me.
There has to be some examples on youtube but I prob wouldn't know it if I saw it.
 
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buckshotshoey said:
First I would like to say....good job to Jay on the interview. Next I would like to touch on the topic of "rack mechanics". Mr Archer made his beliefs on the break pretty clear. He advocates making the break harder for the pro level players....something many people argued against here on AZB. He was VERY ornate in his beliefs on racking your own rules. Says it can cause a lot of problems.....paraphrasing here..."he has seen more arguments during rack your own verses the old way of rack for your opponent".

My 1st question is.....Is it ethical or not to purposely manipulate the rack to gain an advantage? I think....HELL NO! I always try to give the best rack possible to my opponent. I was in an 9 ball tournament one time and my opponent walked to the rack to check it. He said its not that I don't trust you but I just want to see where any gaps might be so I know where to break from. I said ...no problem...if I were a woman, I would get breast implants just for you.! After a puzzled look on his face, I continued. ... you will always get a tight rackbout of me!

Johnny said in the interview that he never learned to manipulate the rack and never will. He went on to say that the rack mechanics will always have an advantage over someone that does not know how to do it. I think everyone should learn how to do it. Then everyone will recognize when its being done to them.

Question 2....are there any videos or explainations out there on how to do it?
I don't what to learn HOW to do it, just to recognize it when it is being done to me.
There has to be some examples on youtube but I prob wouldn't know it if I saw it.
Click to expand...

Here's a post of mine from another thread concerning the ABR segments:

sjm said:
As one who favors nine on the spot, I found myself to be on exactly the same page as Johnny.

The key point Johnny made was that, in this era of rack mechanics, and he reckoned there are about 20 of them in the US Open field (a number that I think may be too low), the corner ball must not be wired. The break, Johnny stated, needs to be tougher to keep the playing field level and the game fair. He made the observation that the last couple of opens were tainted because players didn't have to play as well to win matches.

Johnny, and Mark as well, made the observation that regulation of soft breaking could be an issue, and I agree. Still, Jay Helfert noted that three balls must be pocketed or pass the side pocket for a break to be legal, but predicted that there won't be many illegal breaks. I'm inclined to agree with Jay here, but we'll have to see.

A good point made by Mike Howerton when he interviewed Jay Helfert was that the games may take a little longer due to fewer break and run racks. Jay disagreed, but I'm inclined to agree with Mike. Jay did note, however, that the shot clock will be used if matches fall behind schedule. I sure hope so.
Great job tonight on ABR. It should be a great open.
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To your question, I think that what the rack mechanics do is unethical, and it cannot be argued that the information on how to do it is available to everybody. Even if it were, wiring the corner ball so it goes in on nearly every break cheapens our game, making it too repetitious and deemphasizing defense, two way shots, kicking and many tactical aspects of 9-ball.

If you think it's unfair to those who've worked hard on their break to change it, go talk to Corey Deuel, who worked his butt off to master the soft break. When he was breaking soft, Corey was the best breaker in the game, with his breaking skills culminating in the infamous 13-0 win in the US Open 9-ball final against Immonen (2001, I think), a match to which Archer made reference. Unfortunately for Corey, many complained that the soft break made 9-ball too repetitious and deemphasized defense, two way shots, kicking and many tactical aspects of 9-ball. It resulted in the disallowance of the soft break.

Yes, there's a precedent for changing the break to keep the game exciting and to ensure that it provides a truly comprehensive test of all the skills a player ought to possess to be a champion.
 
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sjm said:
Here's a post of mine from another thread concerning the ABR segments:



To your question, I think that what the rack mechanics do is unethical, and it cannot be argued that the information on how to do it is available to everybody. Even if it were, wiring the corner ball so it goes in on nearly every break cheapens our game, making it too repetitious and deemphasizing defense, two way shots, kicking and many tactical aspects of 9-ball.

If you think it's unfair to those who've worked hard on their break to change it, go talk to Corey Deuel, who worked his butt off to master the soft break. When he was breaking soft, Corey was the best breaker in the game, with his breaking skills culminating in the infamous 13-0 win in the US Open 9-ball final against Immonen (2001, I think), a match to which Archer made reference. Unfortunately for Corey, many complained that the soft break made 9-ball too repetitious and deemphasized defense, two way shots, kicking and many tactical aspects of 9-ball. It resulted in the disallowance of the soft break.

Yes, there's a precedent for changing the break to keep the game exciting and to ensure that it provides a truly comprehensive test of all the skills a player ought to possess to be a champion.
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Thanks. But I could spend the next week looking for examples. Was hoping all of you would know of some so I don't have to spend the time I just dont have.
 
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buckshotshoey said:
Thanks. But I could spend the next week looking for examples. Was hoping all of you would know of some so I don't have to spend the time I just dont have.
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This week, I'd guess 20% of the field will have the knowledge possessed by the rack mechanics, with the nine on the spot, wiring the corner balls to go in at any speed will be impossible, so whether the rack mechanics will bother to fix the rack in some way remains to be seen.
 
It doesn't really fit in todays society, but I still believe in....do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
But at the same time, I am vigilant for the "do unto others BEFORE they do unto you" type of person.
 
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RunoutJJ said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkxaggbhfSQ
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Thanks. There seems to be a lot of stuff on pattern racking. I found this one too.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LTiJwJNH4YY
There is very little on rack manipulation. Is there any examples (videos) out there of someone doing it in a tournament? Like what Johnny Archer was talking about. I would need specific time frames because I probably wouldn't recognise when someone is actually doing it. He mentioned the last couple of US Open tournaments. Is there any video of someone doing it there?
 
Everybody knows who the rack riggers are. There's a lot of irony in that interview.
 
buckshotshoey said:
First I would like to say....good job to Jay on the interview. Next I would like to touch on the topic of "rack mechanics". Mr Archer made his beliefs on the break pretty clear. He advocates making the break harder for the pro level players....something many people argued against here on AZB. He was VERY ornate in his beliefs on racking your own rules. Says it can cause a lot of problems.....paraphrasing here..."he has seen more arguments during rack your own verses the old way of rack for your opponent".

My 1st question is.....Is it ethical or not to purposely manipulate the rack to gain an advantage? I think....HELL NO! I always try to give the best rack possible to my opponent. I was in an 9 ball tournament one time and my opponent walked to the rack to check it. He said its not that I don't trust you but I just want to see where any gaps might be so I know where to break from. I said ...no problem...if I were a woman, I would get breast implants just for you.! After a puzzled look on his face, I continued. ... you will always get a tight rack out of me!

Johnny said in the interview that he never learned to manipulate the rack and never will. He went on to say that the rack mechanics will always have an advantage over someone that does not know how to do it. I think everyone should learn how to do it. Then everyone will recognize when its being done to them.

Question 2....are there any videos or explainations out there on how to do it?
I don't what to learn HOW to do it, just to recognize it when it is being done to me.
There has to be some examples on youtube but I prob wouldn't know it if I saw it.
Click to expand...

Having played in match play against Johnny and many others over the past thirty plus years, here's my copy/paste....when Jay was looking for our thoughts on the US Open in his earlier thread. It's nice to hear Johnny agreeing with ''the way it's been and should be''.

To I , this is the Main core problem with racking your own. It's the rackers job (within the rules) to make sure your opponent has difficultly making a ball (get em tight) and you can move the one ball up/down ''on the spot'' along the center line/legally, and it's the breakers job to make sure he does make a ball. Two entirely separate activities during match play ....in the past at the Open it was always loser racks/winner breaks (I finished 16-24 the only two times I played in Virginia, so I do know whats going on)....whining tho changed the game to where we are now, not common sense. Only game I prefer rack your own is one pocket, here too the racker is doing his best to gain an advantage, that's really what this whole debacle is about, having an advantage over your opponent that is got nothing to do with your skill level at the table. Racking your own is not good for the sport, it of course should be done by referees a each table but, the game $$$$$ can't handle that presently
 
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What is funny is I'm the one that brought up "rack rigging" on this forum a long, long time ago? When I first brought it up, some forum members doubted me, as if I was making it up. Who do you think coined that term "rack rigger"? It was me. :grin:

When Joe Tucker's book first came out, everybody was interested in how to read the rack before breaking, so that one could perfect their break.

But what happened is many players learned that by reading the cracks in the rack, they could change up their break and make it work.

The weakest part of my other half's game in 9-ball is his break. Several peers have come up to Keith and showed him how to break and rig a rack. For whatever reason, Keith just doesn't seem to want to check the rack before breaking unless I am pounding it in his head 100 times before the match begins. It pisses me off that he doesn't understand the importance of checking the rack. Meanwhile, Keith couldn't rig a rack if his life depended on it. :grin:

At the pro event in Super Billiards Expo one year, one unnamed pro came outside between games to smoke a cigarette. He told me that the person he was playing was rigging the rack on him, and so he was going to rig it right back to his opponent. Their match took forever, arguing about the rack. It takes one to know one, right? ;)

Rigging a rack is no different than playing poker with a marked deck.
 
Island Drive said:
Having played in match play against Johnny and many others over the past thirty plus years, here's my copy/paste....when Jay was looking for our thoughts on the US Open in his earlier thread. It's nice to hear Johnny agreeing with ''the way it's been and should be''.

To I , this is the Main core problem with racking your own. It's the rackers job (within the rules) to make sure your opponent has difficultly making a ball (get em tight) and you can move the one ball up/down ''on the spot'' along the center line/legally, and it's the breakers job to make sure he does make a ball. Two entirely separate activities during match play ....in the past at the Open it was always loser racks/winner breaks (I finished 16-24 the only two times I played in Virginia, so I do know whats going on)....whining tho changed the game to where we are now, not common sense. Only game I prefer rack your own is one pocket, here too the racker is doing his best to gain an advantage, that's really what this whole debacle is about, having an advantage over your opponent that is got nothing to do with your skill level at the table. Racking your own is not good for the sport, it of course should be done by referees a each table but, the game $$$$$ can't handle that presently
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The only thing he did say, contrary to the way it has been, was he likes the idea of the 9 on the foot spot.
 
buckshotshoey said:
The only thing he did say, contrary to the way it has been, was he likes the idea of the 9 on the foot spot.
Click to expand...

Perfect.........the ''wing ball'' has always been the culprit....9 on the spot for pros removes that unfair aspect of play from the game and Skill will rule that roost....and the soft break mechanics issue has been addressed for pro play with the current breaking rules. A comparison in the PGA, the pros shoot from the back tees because the course is too easy from the front.
 
Island Drive said:
Perfect.........the ''wing ball'' has always been the culprit....9 on the spot for pros removes that unfair aspect of play from the game and Skill will rule that roost....and the soft break mechanics issue has been addressed for pro play with the current breaking rules. A comparison in the PGA, the pros shoot from the back tees because the course is too easy from the front.
Click to expand...

The "wing ball" can't be considered as "unfair aspect of play", the old rules were valid for both players as well.
 
In Buddy Halls book by Ww Woody Buddy asks Johnny where did he learn to rack and he answered from Johnny Neal one of the best known rack mechanics ever.
 
JAM said:
What is funny is I'm the one that brought up "rack rigging" on this forum a long, long time ago? When I first brought it up, some forum members doubted me, as if I was making it up. Who do you think coined that term "rack rigger"? It was me. :grin:

When Joe Tucker's book first came out, everybody was interested in how to read the rack before breaking, so that one could perfect their break.

But what happened is many players learned that by reading the cracks in the rack, they could change up their break and make it work.

The weakest part of my other half's game in 9-ball is his break. Several peers have come up to Keith and showed him how to break and rig a rack. For whatever reason, Keith just doesn't seem to want to check the rack before breaking unless I am pounding it in his head 100 times before the match begins. It pisses me off that he doesn't understand the importance of checking the rack. Meanwhile, Keith couldn't rig a rack if his life depended on it. :grin:

At the pro event in Super Billiards Expo one year, one unnamed pro came outside between games to smoke a cigarette. He told me that the person he was playing was rigging the rack on him, and so he was going to rig it right back to his opponent. Their match took forever, arguing about the rack. It takes one to know one, right? ;)

Rigging a rack is no different than playing poker with a marked deck.
Click to expand...

This is an excellent post full of very well presented history. I must admit that I was not one of the first to see the problems that would arise, but I must commend Barry Behrman and Jay Helfert for doing something to make nine ball fair again.
 
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