Advanced 8Ball Plays

M

MacGyver

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hello,

After reading some threads on where apa 5's,6's,7's play and the hitting your opponent balls in threads, I have a couple questions about strategy.


What would you do in a situation where you can't run out, have balls in a cluster that don't have an apparent breakout on(even with BIH), so playing a safe and getting BIH still won't guarentee your out.

Let's assume the opponents ball is in the cluster too, but he has a solid breakout and other than that cluster he is basically out.

What is your move at the table? Try to take over a pocket or lock your ball against his?

I understand breakouts and safeties, but I always have a hard time when looking at a table where I cant get out, and even after playing a saftey will have a terrible run at the table(however if the table is runnable or with an easy breakout with a ball near a pocket to make if things go bad, I dont have a hard time running out the table).

This for instance:
(shooting solids)

CueTable Help



(if there are breakouts i'm not seeing then ignore, as I want to talk about cases where a breakout is not easy nor will getting BIH help with the problem balls....)
 
that is when I sell the outhouse . . .

That is when I am ready to sell the outhouse 'cause I just lost my butt!

More seriously, there is always that little thing called luck. every situation is different and all you can do is play whatever is your best option at the moment and let the chips fall where they may. I'd always try to keep control of the table, if that is impossible try to break the cluster and leave your opponent without a decent shot.

Hu


MacGyver said:
Hello,

After reading some threads on where apa 5's,6's,7's play and the hitting your opponent balls in threads, I have a couple questions about strategy.


What would you do in a situation where you can't run out, have balls in a cluster that don't have an apparent breakout on(even with BIH), so playing a safe and getting BIH still won't guarentee your out.

Let's assume the opponents ball is in the cluster too, but he has a solid breakout and other than that cluster he is basically out.

What is your move at the table? Try to take over a pocket or lock your ball against his?

I understand breakouts and safeties, but I always have a hard time when looking at a table where I cant get out, and even after playing a saftey will have a terrible run at the table(however if the table is runnable or with an easy breakout with a ball near a pocket to make if things go bad, I dont have a hard time running out the table).

This for instance:
(shooting solids)

CueTable Help



(if there are breakouts i'm not seeing then ignore, as I want to talk about cases where a breakout is not easy nor will getting BIH help with the problem balls....)
Click to expand...
 
Right, but there are situations like that all the time, where:

1: You can't get out
and
2: Getting BIH from safety won't let you run out.

So whats the play then?


My first instinct is to try to play a safety off the cluster but if that isnt possible them i'm lost... I could try to knock their balls out of breakout position, but then if that gives them BIH or if I leave a breakout ball open then they are out too.(This is assuming playing against a good player).

Thoughts?

This is my really weak area right now... situations where I dont know what to do.
 
when your screwed...

Running the bunch of the solids at the top of the table is trivial, but you can't get out without dealing with the 6 on the rail, and the 7 in the cluster.

If I don't see an obvious safe, and the opponent is going to make something, I'd just as soon he took off any blockers, so..

I think here - in the table you showed - I'd be getting the 6 off the rail, and trying to leave the cueball down below the cluster on the rail...sort of tempting the opponent to take the 12 ball to begin a run. Risk is he could do that and break the cluster...

OK, plan B then would be to start after those ducks at the top of the table, tring to work out a natural shot that would break the cluster....

love to hear what others would do here.
 
Can't tell if you have solids or stripes. If you have the stripes, you are in a better position to break out with all 4 of your balls down near the cluster. I would play the 11 right now with low and draw into the pack on the high side. The 8 doesn't look like it is wired for any pocket. If you run into trouble, you still have your hanging 12 ball.

If you are solids, I would take the 4 right now and draw into the pack. The danger here is that you still have a trouble ball in the 6, your 7 may go to the end rail, and you need to be precise in your hit on the 4. By breaking out with the 4, you also have a chance of tying up their 15 on the rail near the 10.

You also have the 1 as a breakout ball, (draw to the end rail and back into the cluster) but you may need it to dig out the 6 later, and you may get stuck underneath the pack too.

Any one of the solids up table have potential for breakouts if you get the right angles on them, but of course, offer the lowest percentage, and the more you remove lessens the likelihood of a positive outcome.

OK, then, just re-read your post, you have solids and are not looking for breakouts. :o

The only safe I see is for you to shoot through the 6 and land on the 10 so that they can't combo the 12 in. The 13 wouldn't go and they should be hidden on the 11. IMO, that is too touchy of a shot from that distance - table roll, depends on how heavy the cueball is (i.e. deflection), and you have to watch out for the double kiss, etc.

It would be extremely difficult to get BIH, and they have a hanger. I say go for the breakout early in the game. :p
 
MacGyver said:
Hello,

After reading some threads on where apa 5's,6's,7's play and the hitting your opponent balls in threads, I have a couple questions about strategy.


What would you do in a situation where you can't run out, have balls in a cluster that don't have an apparent breakout on(even with BIH), so playing a safe and getting BIH still won't guarentee your out.

Let's assume the opponents ball is in the cluster too, but he has a solid breakout and other than that cluster he is basically out.

What is your move at the table? Try to take over a pocket or lock your ball against his?

I understand breakouts and safeties, but I always have a hard time when looking at a table where I cant get out, and even after playing a saftey will have a terrible run at the table(however if the table is runnable or with an easy breakout with a ball near a pocket to make if things go bad, I dont have a hard time running out the table).

This for instance:
(shooting solids)

CueTable Help



(if there are breakouts i'm not seeing then ignore, as I want to talk about cases where a breakout is not easy nor will getting BIH help with the problem balls....)
Click to expand...

This is what I would do at that point. It ties up his nine/10 and leaves the fifteen tied up while the eight can still be made up in the corner, it gives a good chance of a safety and it frees up your seven, Oh I changed the wei in the quote. but the green line needs to go to the back of the black line.
 
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When In Doubt Go Offensive...

Runout to the Seven, 5, 2, 3, 4, 1, 6...Bring the cue ball to the bottom rail, shoot the 7 to the side pocket, leave your opponent locked in the pack on the 9 ball...force him to runout, youv'e done all you can do...
 
MacGyver:

I will try to talk in generalities, since I know you are looking for more than just how to run this particular table out.

Winning games like this is difficult and takes a lot of strategy... One of my foremost rules for winning in 8-ball is: You MUST GAIN SOMETHING anytime you play a safety.

This layout is typical for tables where you are most likely not going to get out, so you know a safety will have to be played. You need to gain something out of a safety and, in cases like this, you can't just hook your opponent, because you would not be gaining much. BIH is not going to make this table much better.

So the alternative is to rearrange the balls. You will have to move balls so that you are blocking key pockets or move balls so that his balls move away from the pockets and possibly cluster-up with themselves.

For your example, playing the 6 into the 10, into the 12 is the best option because you most likely will drive his balls away from the pocket and leave your ball near the pocket (and close to the cluster containing the 7 ball).

You need to learn to play this bump and hide strategy and learn great patience... to wait for the proper time to run your balls out. You massage the layout of the table a little at a time until you have a runable table.

It takes time to see the appropriate shot for gaining table advantage, but if you start thinking along those lines and shoting shots designed to get you the advantage, you will start to see what works and what does not work. Just make sure you take a moment to analyze what happened on the shot and how to improve it or why it worked so well. That will improve your game right away and you will start to win more matches.
 
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I guess I have a lot of goals and will do different things depending on the situation. At this point in my playing, I will try to do some things that if they worked, would be excellent. But sometimes I shoot too hard/soft and mess up the shot. But the more and more I attempt these things, the better I get at doing them. Anyway here are some general goals I have...

Goal: Work my balls into a situation where I can run out. In the above case, I would be looking at the 6 and 7 as problem balls that I would want elsewhere. And I wouldn't want to break out the 8 until I knew I could run out. Sometimes I'll shoot a ball and say "Anywhere but there!" (Anywhere else would be better then where it is.)

Goal: If I can't run out, keep my opponent from being able to run out. (And certainly don't help them by breaking up clusters which will open everything up.)

Goal: If I can't run out, have plenty of balls scattered around the table so my opponent will have a difficult time snookering me and to make a run out for my opponent more difficult. It is better to have balls all over the table rather than all at one end or concentrated in one area. (Harder for them to snooker you.)

Goal: If the 8 is clustered like in this situation, it is a good thing to be able to "pick" my balls off one or two at a time while leaving my opponent's balls clustered to the 8. They will have to deal with their ball(s) sooner or later. So I think the above suggestion to shoot at the 7 is a good idea. You are leaving your opponents ball clustered to the 8 and hopefully moving the 7 out in the open. So you then have one more ball out in the open - getting closer to being able to run out. You can learn to pick off one ball at a time like this (without disturbing others) by playing 14.1 continuous pool.

Goal: "Buy time." If my opponent can run out and I can't and I am not left with a shot, then I will try to buy some time. I will leave the cue ball in a nasty spot so they will have a difficult shot, maybe create a cluster, maybe bank a ball so it blocks the 8, in rare desperate situations shoot the 8 into a nasty spot and give them ball-in-hand (they have one ball on table). In general, mess up the works.

Goal: Create problems for my opponent. Sometimes you can make whatever shot you are intending and get the cue ball to come off the shot and move your opponent's ball into a nasty spot or cluster. i.e. While you are moving your balls into a better situation, you can at the same time create problems for your opponent. Maybe natural path of cue ball after shot. Maybe shoot with draw to come back and nudge opponent's ball into a nasty cluster, etc.

Goal: Block my opponent's pockets. Slowly shooting one of your balls so it stops on the long rail to block the path of your opponent's ball (on the rail) to the corner pocket can be a game winner. You have created a bank or combo shot for your opponent. This is difficult to do as it requires exact speed. Just a tad too fast and your ball will bounce 3 inches back off the rail not blocking anything!

Goal: Block the 8. If you can arrange your balls so they are blocking the 8 and you can easily pocket these balls, then that is good. Or if your balls are blocking the 8, good idea to leave them there. If you can't shoot them in as they are, because they are clustered, good idea to rearrange them so you will be able to shoot them in later while at the same time leaving one or more blocking the 8.

Goal: Setup break out balls. Shoot a ball into a position where you can use it to break out a cluster later.

Goal: Move balls to better location. If not much else to do and not intending to make any balls, then it is good to move a ball closer to a pocket. Say a ball is in the center of the table, shoot it lightly so it stops in front of a corner pocket - try to block the pocket. Then this will be an easier shot later on.
 
With this particular layout I would likely try to go out, playing the 1-ball first (draw and left) off the short rail into the cluster.

But in general terms when faced with a very low percentage out, there is a balancing act between working toward a future opportunity and the immediate goal of preventing the other player from going out.

There are usually several potentially effective options. So you need to sum these up for pros and cons. A couple I see here, that I would consider as an option to playing for the out are:

1. Play the 3 two rails to the bottom left corner to block it and to provide a future cluster buster, or cluster buster saver (an option for play ball later after you've broken into the cluster), trying to get the CB behind the 5-ball to hook the opponent.

2. Dribble the 6-ball onto the 10-ball so that the opponent will have a harder time going out.

3. Pot the 2-ball and get onto the 5-ball to play it into the 12-ball.

Table layouts present lots of options, and choosing the right shot depends a lot on estimating your ability to execute it. Look for shots that offer several potential benefits, a couple of which are guaranteed and a couple of which may be potentially powerful if execution goes perfectly.

eg. For the 3 ball. Guaranteed benefits are:
1. Leave long shot for opponent.
2. Opponent will take risk trying to bust cluster first shot and may have to waste a saver or two getting to it.
3. 3-ball moves into better zone as a potential cluster buster or saver.
4. 3-ball should block path options for the opponent's out (unless you happen to pocket it.

Potential Benefits:
1. If the 3-ball pockets, you may be able to play the 5-ball onto the 12-ball.
2. 3-ball may finish ideally blocking opponent's balls.
3. You might hook the opponent very well.

The player's job is to balance all these odds with their potential to execute and compare them to other options.

That's what makes 8-ball such a mentally challenging game and why experience is so important. An experienced player may spot 5 good shot options and see various levels of benefits and costs to each of them according to slight variations in execution. And he can process these quickly, make a decision and get down to the focused execution.

A less experienced player will see less options and see fewer layers of benefits / costs / risks associated with each shot.
 
I would bank the 3ball 2 rails down towards the lower left corner pocket
and hope it got in the way. It also gives you a chance for another breakout ball or ball to shoot after a breakout.

In the layout I think he has a little better ball position but he is still going to have to do something with it and break out 2 ball while leaving a shot at them.

When hitting the three ball I would try and get the cueball over to the side rail and so that he can not see the 12 ball. Hopefully you get a chance back to the table and if so you are in better shape.

IMO trying to run out and not getting there would be putting too much control in the other players hands. He already has a little better position so why give him more. Theres a small chance at the runout even for the Pro Level guys with an even less chance at APA 5s, 6s, and 7s running out.
If they do then they deserved it. In the long run I think you would win more games trying to manuever your way out of these type situations instead of shooting out of them from the start.
 
At this early stage in the game, I'd do something rather dramatic, as this table is not easily runnable for the stripes if the shot I'd try doesn't work out perfectly. I'd shoot the 1 ball into the side pocket, with high right english, shooting it rather firmly. The goal here is to pocket the 1 ball and bump or bounce that 6 off the rail, and hopefully into the cluster. Obviously we're looking at opening up the cluster and having the 2, 4 or 5 balls as insurance balls in case the cue ball ends up in some nasty place! Once the 1 is pocketed and the 6 freed, a total reassessment of the table will be in order.

Would I try this against a VERY strong player? Perhaps!

Flex
 
frankncali said:
I would bank the 3ball 2 rails down towards the lower left corner pocket
and hope it got in the way. It also gives you a chance for another breakout ball or ball to shoot after a breakout.

In the layout I think he has a little better ball position but he is still going to have to do something with it and break out 2 ball while leaving a shot at them.

When hitting the three ball I would try and get the cueball over to the side rail and so that he can not see the 12 ball. Hopefully you get a chance back to the table and if so you are in better shape.

IMO trying to run out and not getting there would be putting too much control in the other players hands. He already has a little better position so why give him more. Theres a small chance at the runout even for the Pro Level guys with an even less chance at APA 5s, 6s, and 7s running out.
If they do then they deserved it. In the long run I think you would win more games trying to manuever your way out of these type situations instead of shooting out of them from the start.
Click to expand...


I agree, sort of. Make the five first, play position on the 2 rail 3 ball bank. Play it long and come in behind the 1, or at least block the pocket. Leave the cue ball near corner pocket so he cant make his hanging 12. If you accidently make the 3, then you still have the 4 to work with.
 
MacGyver,
I'm having trouble understanding your post. First you title it 'Advanced Plays' and then you request that the most advanced advise is not wanted. As pictured in your wie layout the most advanced shot if your solids is to take the early breakout by pulling the cb into the cluster off the one ball or the four ball in the side. You say "were you can't run them" this layout is immenititly runable if you take the breakout that is staring you in the face. Maybe it is just my aggressive nature but I can't see any other stragegy here. Even for 'C' level play the best move is to go for the runout by getting your 7ball freed up so you have a swing at the runout.
Point of interest...as you show the table it is still open, solids have not been establisihed.
I just left a state 8ball tounament and I can almost say with certainty that 90 % of all the players (approx 1000 players) first shot with either solids or stripes would be to breakout that cluster and take your chances on the runout. Advanced 8ball is to keep your opponent on the bench...sorry if this comes across as flip.
 
MacGyver said:
This for instance:
(shooting solids)

CueTable Help



(if there are breakouts i'm not seeing then ignore, as I want to talk about cases where a breakout is not easy nor will getting BIH help with the problem balls....)
Click to expand...

I think the play here is to play the 4 ball and go for the breakout, trying to hit the 8 ball after pocketing the 4. If you hit the 8 square you’d have to be unlucky not to have a shot on the 2 ball or 1 ball. The big problem is playing the 6 ball. If you miss the breakout low then you might have a chance at the 6 or 1 ball. The worst thing that could happen is miss the breakout and lock up behind the 10 ball. If you graze the 8 ball at the apex you still might get a shot at the 6, 1 or 5 ball, possibly even the 7 ball after contact.

Or, …….I’d consider playing safe by knocking the 3 ball two rails up table.

Rick
 
MacGyver said:
Let's assume the opponents ball is in the cluster too, but he has a solid breakout and other than that cluster he is basically out.

What is your move at the table? Try to take over a pocket or lock your ball against his?

I understand breakouts and safeties, but I always have a hard time when looking at a table where I cant get out, and even after playing a saftey will have a terrible run at the table(however if the table is runnable or with an easy breakout with a ball near a pocket to make if things go bad, I dont have a hard time running out the table).


(if there are breakouts i'm not seeing then ignore, as I want to talk about cases where a breakout is not easy nor will getting BIH help with the problem balls....)
Click to expand...


Here is one solution that I had put in that thread. I'll repeat it here. The situations are infinite but I have had a couple of situations where I combo'd into my opponents break ball and sent it elsewhere. Hoping it would leave my ball there as a break ball for me. Don't remember that second objective working out, but I did successfully relieve my opponent from having such an easy breakout shot.
 
Shoot the 1 ball into the side pocket with top so the CB goes into the 10, makes or moves the 12 and then may break into the big cluster. This will leave the 6 ball open and may tie up some of his balls. I see the 10 hitting the long rail, making the 12 and after going into the rail breaking the cluster by hitting the 9 ball and pushing the 7 to the bottom long rail and the 8 will move to the center of the table. Depending on how the balls now lay you may have the 7 open as your next shot if not then the 2 to play position on either 6 or 4 to break out any balls that are still tied up.
 
Wow, this is why I come onto this MB, for smart, knowledgable shooters who enjoy sharing thier hard earned skills.

This is also why I love 8-Ball as well; It's a thinking mans game.

8-Ball is anything but easy, when played correctly by master players.
 
I'd probably dribble (as Colin called it) the 6 into the 10 and leave him the sucker shot (the 12 in the corner to break out the cluster).

It's a sucker shot because one of the rules-of-thumb I use in 8-ball is to let your opponent take the first chance at breaking out a cluster, when he is tied up elsewhere (the 6 and 10). Usually, that person loses as he ends up in one ball hell.

By "forcing" him to take off the 12, he's eliminated his best breakout ball for the 6/10 and opened a pocket for you. I like to either get rid of my opponent's easy, breakout balls or to "force" him to take them early without much reward for him.

Jeff Livingston
 
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yep!!!!!

BillYards said:
MacGyver:

I will try to talk in generalities, since I know you are looking for more than just how to run this particular table out.

Winning games like this is difficult and takes a lot of strategy... One of my foremost rules for winning in 8-ball is: You MUST GAIN SOMETHING anytime you play a safety.

This layout is typical for tables where you are most likely not going to get out, so you know a safety will have to be played. You need to gain something out of a safety and, in cases like this, you can't just hook your opponent, because you would not be gaining much. BIH is not going to make this table much better.

So the alternative is to rearrange the balls. You will have to move balls so that you are blocking key pockets or move balls so that his balls move away from the pockets and possibly cluster-up with themselves.

For your example, playing the 6 into the 10, into the 12 is the best option because you most likely will drive his balls away from the pocket and leave your ball near the pocket (and close to the cluster containing the 7 ball).

You need to learn to play this bump and hide strategy and learn great patience... to wait for the proper time to run your balls out. You massage the layout of the table a little at a time until you have a runable table.

It takes time to see the appropriate shot for gaining table advantage, but if you start thinking along those lines and shoting shots designed to get you the advantage, you will start to see what works and what does not work. Just make sure you take a moment to analyze what happened on the shot and how to improve it or why it worked so well. That will improve your game right away and you will start to win more matches.
Click to expand...
Yep 100 times yep
 
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