Advise to Dr. DAVE From Ron V.

RonV

AIMING,BANKING,D.SYSTEMS
Silver Member
Advise To Dr. Dave From Ron V.

I read with great interest Dr. Dave's obvious indictment of my aiming system... and his not so obvious replacement with his own near-impossible to understand aiming system.

The good doctor should realize that those of us that earned our stripes on the corporate battlefield are not easily fooled by well-argued propositions that misinform and ultimately misdirect .

Those of us in the real world can distinguish between self-serving, self-promotion and a genuine academic contribution. The transparency of his article to sell his own aiming system was glaringly obvious. Quite frankly, I was amazed at his belief that his audience would be so gullible.

It's time to tell the good doctor that " The emperor has no clothes. Put differently, we must now distinguish between science and science fiction. And while I'm at it, we all should inform him that the era of " one- to- many communications" is being replaced, and with good reason, by today's " many-to many " communication vehicles such as A-Z Billiards.

Before the advent of social media connective technologies that now enable peer-to- peer communications, we were at the mercy of people like Dr. Dave who gave us answers in the form of neatly engineered formulas, strategic paradigms, and finely honed analytical techniques.

To be blunt:The academic stuff Dr. Dave traffics in, very few can comprehend. And even fewer can use in some productive way to improve their level of play.

Mass collaboration via social networking changes everything
Now we can all learn from each other. We can find out what works, what doesn't work, and why. We can learn real systems that have met the concrete test of application. Evidence-based results far outweigh mathematical niceties for serious-minded pool players.

In short, much of the concepts of aiming are simple and generalize easily; yet the mathematical jargon, numerical tables, and graphs so favored by Dr. Dave give the impression of being extremely scientific. Quite frankly, in my opinion, it's academic nonsense disguised as " analysis, " "concepts, " and "scientific theories."

My system really works. Hundreds of e-mails/postings validate my assertion. I, for one,do not need a self-important academic attempt to condemn a great system & the work of countless others to the scrap heap, and in the process claim his system is better.

Worse, I am astonished that Dr. Dave really believes anyone accepts his self-appointed position as judge and jury. The court holding tactic may have worked in yesterday's " one-to-many " era. But in today's world it's the people with familiarity with the system and the ability to implement it who are the real judges.

In the final analysis it's results that count. My system enables users to quickly obtain extraordinary results. What are the validated results of Dr. Dave's system? I can validate my results with a dozen or more testimonials.

Would Dr. Dave be willing to subject himself to a real experiment to test the validity of both systems? Perhaps one of the big three publications in the world of pool would be willing to fund a properly designed statistical experiment? Just an idea.

The criteria for such a test would be based on real world usage of the system and measurable results obtained. I provide a step-by-step methodology for aiming that extends into banking and diamond systems. From my reading of Dr. Dave's aiming system, he provides no such principle-based methodology.

Dr. Dave is a young man. In time, he will, hopefully, learn the true meaning of the the term innovation. Peter F. Drucker, reminded us, that innovation can be defined as: " The missing link between a number of disconnected elements, each marginally effective by themselves, and an integrated system of great productive power. "

That's what my system is about. I've brought together a number of disconnected elements, each marginally effective, and put them together into a systematic, well-organized learning program. Dr. Dave would be well-advised to follow my example and stop trying to complicate simple procedures via questionable mathematics.

My objective is ,and always has been, to put accumulated aiming knowledge into a form that makes it accessible to those that need it. My material is organized, explicit, portable, and is easy to understand and execute.

I believe Dr. Dave with his elegant mathematics, impressively packaged materials, and promised solutions was brilliantly conceived, but suffers from the low correlation between pseudo-knowledge and playing effectiveness. He's isolated himself in meaningless abstractions, far from the realities players must endure when engaged in actual play.

Dr. Dave has a significant contribution to make. But that will take hard work backed by student feedback through results in place of elegant, but quite irrelevant,mathematics.

I strongly advise Dr. Dave to accept the notion that pool must be made into a discipline. The foundation in a discipline gives today's competent pool player a capacity to perform well beyond competent pool players of yesteryear. That's where we need his efforts and intelligence.

I further advise him to learn more about measurement and codification procedures. But that's for another day.
 
An academic woofing ... how existential. Well said.......a little windy..but well said. Now, since the John Schmidt -- Danny Hariman match probably won't come to fruition, how about a Ron V Dr. Dave matchup. I'm sure we will at least increase our IQ's and probably see a great match up since both are standing by their respective systems. Good luck to both of you on this one
 
I frankly don't understand RonV's beef with the Dr. Dave article.

Ron, if your system works for you, and you and your students like it, go baby go.

Dave has been consistently good with his math (except on those RARE occasions where he disagreed with ME:thumbup:) and the laws of physics must be obeyed. No matter how you explain it, with math or intuition, the ball only goes in the pocket if you somehow hit it there.

Aiming systems are all an attempt to simplify the infinite number of angles into a simpler set of rules. With any simplification, there can be errors created by the generalization. Also,the friction that creates the throw effect between CB and the OB cannot be exactly quantified, so there is always room for real effects that are hard to explain in words, and hard to predict exactly in play.

I did not get the sense Dave was knocking your system, except to knock anybody's claims that sound "too good to be true." That's always good advice.

This is not a reference to you or your post Ron, but Dave has always been a gentleman in his posts, even when grossly provoked by people who did not have a clue of what they were talking about. I am sure he would entertain an intelligent debate about the technical points he is trying to make. Assuming your system works, there is probably less disagreement than you think.

Finally, Dave has always been generous with his information. Even though he sells his book and video, all of the information is shared free on his website. If he disagrees with someone's method (or maybe better, their explanation of their method), it is probably not motivated by an effort to line his own pockets.
 
RonV said:
Advise To Dr. Dave From Ron V.

[...]

Ron - I don't know your aiming system.

Is your post a response to Dave's article linked in the first reply to your post? If so, then I'm confused. I just read that article. It seems simple, balanced, and fair. Your response seems emotional to me. I don't even see your name mentioned.

But what I'm most concerned about is your suggestion that Dave wants to be an authority figure that can't be questioned (your one-to-many stuff).

Because I see his approach as just the opposite of that. That he is here on this board ready and willing to discuss any and every little aspect of everything he says is laudable. That he is willing to have his mind changed by a sound argument is laudable.

Yes he does math. So what? Math is the right way to address certain questions. It would only be a problem if he tended to hide behind the math when put in a corner. He doesn't do that. He makes every effort to be understood.

I'm not saying he has all the answers by any stretch. But he is knowledgeable, and he does make serious and transparent efforts to separate the wheat from the chaff. He deserves your respect, imo.
 
mikepage said:
Ron - I don't know your aiming system.

Is your post a response to Dave's article linked in the first reply to your post? If so, then I'm confused. I just read that article. It seems simple, balanced, and fair. Your response seems emotional to me. I don't even see your name mentioned.

But what I'm most concerned about is your suggestion that Dave wants to be an authority figure that can't be questioned (your one-to-many stuff).

Because I see his approach as just the opposite of that. That he is here on this board ready and willing to discuss any and every little aspect of everything he says is laudable. That he is willing to have his mind changed by a sound argument is laudable.

Yes he does math. So what? Math is the right way to address certain questions. It would only be a problem if he tended to hide behind the math when put in a corner. He doesn't do that. He makes every effort to be understood.

I'm not saying he has all the answers by any stretch. But he is knowledgeable, and he does make serious and transparent efforts to separate the wheat from the chaff. He deserves your respect, imo.

I think I see why. Dr. D's 2nd diagram is Ron's system 90/90 sighting (although his results are incorrect). I'm not going to get into it because the last time I tried to explain why, PJ and I had an atomic meltdown (I still have a headache from that). I'm gonna sideline, eat some popcorn, and read what others say.
 
We had a few telephone conversations and I sent him my notes a book that I wrote... Then he wrote that article...
 
Well I'll bite.. Are you systems avaliable for purchase?? If so how about a link or maybe a comparison to the other avaliable systems. There certainly are many to chose from and I for one would be interested to see yours.
Dan
 
Here we go again. I don't know anything about these aiming systems, but no matter what system is what, the real key is to come up with an accurate "DELIVERY" system anyway.

You can aim like Superman with his laser beam eyes, but if you deliver that aim like a twisted train wreck it don't much matter which is better. :shrug:
 
RonV said:
Advise To Dr. Dave From Ron V.....
I watched your video of a few months back and it was pretty obvious that many, many shots cannot be made using this system, that is, sans additional adjustments. But if I recall correctly, nowhere in the video were these adjustments mentioned. Please pardon me if I'm wrong on that. Dr. Dave's article shows why adjustments are necessary, why the system cannot be used "as is", and he does it without "hiding" behind any math. That is the whole point of the diagrams.

Yes, it is frustrating to have one's system nuked through mathematics, particularly if you don't have the background to follow the argument. But if you do have it, and there are people here that do, the math is not a shield. It is simply necessary at times because that's the way the world works. And I'll guarantee that Dr. Dave isn't so full of himself, despite being a professor of engineering, that he doesn't solicit critiques of his articles from people far less sophisticated than he.

That you believe you've discovered something which works, and are willing to share it with the rest of us, is to be respected. But when you attack the criticisms by claiming that all that math stuff has little or nothing to do with the real world, it begins to smell like snake oil.

Jim
 
  • Like
Reactions: "T"
I try to stay out of these discussions but find that some sort of comment in the "many to many" discussion is possibly of use. I read Dave's article and found it to be a cautionary note to those who seek a mechanical aiming solution. It contains diagrams to support his position and is not too theoretical in its presentation. It is a useful point of view for those who are considering a mecanical solution. But then this is only another opinion and is worth more or less depending upon how you perceive the world.

Testimonial support for a particular point of vew is a weak way to make one's point because testimonials are often overlayed with far too much emotion.

I think the empirical solution to mechanical aiming systems would involve using a short cue stick on a set of ball bearings with some small power source. The power to move the cue stick might come from a weight on a string suspended from a tripod. The mechanical system could then be tested with various shot configurations. In this way any purely mechanical aiming system could be tested, without the addition of the human element.
 
Last edited:
The solution is go to a table and do it, don't draw a diagram to disprove the system. IT WORKS. It was a bad article by dr. dave PERIOD!!!!
 
Ron's system works for me. I cannot believe how much my ball pocketing improved after he taught it to me.
90-90 swivel does not work on every shot. It works on shots that are 1/2 ball aim up to but not including straight in shots. This covers a lot of shots. It covers all of the SAM 2 and 3 shots.
If your aim is outside of that range you do have to adjust. Ron teaches these adjustments.
As somone here pointed out, if a system works for you go with it. If you have been using another system and are happy then you don't need to learn another system.
 
I think if someone doesn't understand a system well enough to diagram it, they shouldn't diagram and falsely disprove it in a national magazine. The diagram is completely wrong. My only hope is that someday either Ron or Dr. Dave or someone will put a proper diagram in a publication. No one has been able to diagram a hip-pivot yet and what happens with a hip (body) pivot. Your perspective changes as to where center ball is - it's a new visual center... not the center you were looking at before your body moved (your eyes/head shift). The system is mathematically sound. If it wasn't, no one would make a ball ever.
 
Ron,

It is bizarre that you use the arguement of social networking to assert that somehow Dr. Dave speaks from an ivory tower.

Dr. Dave has done incredible amounts to give away vast amounts of information and make it publically available. He also readily discusses this information with anyone who enquires.

He also does his best to explain his ideas as comprehensively as possible.

This is something I have not seen you do.

When questions about your system, and its obvious problems and/or limitations were raised here, you didn't even attempt to answer those well thought out questions.

Colin

btw: Dave's Aiming System (DAM), is a joke. He is not marketing this system.
 
Last edited:
SpiderWebComm said:
I think if someone doesn't understand a system well enough to diagram it, they shouldn't diagram and falsely disprove it in a national magazine. The diagram is completely wrong. My only hope is that someday either Ron or Dr. Dave or someone will put a proper diagram in a publication. No one has been able to diagram a hip-pivot yet and what happens with a hip (body) pivot. Your perspective changes as to where center ball is - it's a new visual center... not the center you were looking at before your body moved (your eyes/head shift). The system is mathematically sound. If it wasn't, no one would make a ball ever.

I understand that if you move your body/head your perception of the "center" of the ball changes. But if you keep your bridge hand fixed, that fixes the center of the ball to be what Dave has diagrammed--regardless of what you do with your hips and head.

Now perhaps you don't keep your bridge hand fixed.

But do you agree that if you keep your bridge hand fixed (say by replacing it with a mechanical bridge before you pivot), the center of the ball is where it is regardless of how you achieve the pivot?
 
mikepage said:
I understand that if you move your body/head your perception of the "center" of the ball changes. But if you keep your bridge hand fixed, that fixes the center of the ball to be what Dave has diagrammed--regardless of what you do with your hips and head.

Now perhaps you don't keep your bridge hand fixed.

But do you agree that if you keep your bridge hand fixed (say by replacing it with a mechanical bridge before you pivot), the center of the ball is where it is regardless of how you achieve the pivot?

I think it was generally agreed from an analysis of video in an earlier thread that when Dave (Spidey) demonstrated this shot, there was some upper bridge hand movement and the cue actually pivoted about 10-14 inches back from his bridge.

This was for a longish shot ~6feet about 1/2ball cut angle. The pivot point executed was pretty close to what calculations had predicted was necessary.

The question is, how did Dave know to pivot at this point. On a shorter shot the pivot would need to be considerably shorter.

Some of us tend to think that Dave sees the angle and pivots to it, using feel. Dave and others assert that they are just systematically pivoting to center.

Unfortunately, no feasable geometric explanation, (at least one that is understandable or drawable), has been provided to explain the nature of this changing pivot point, which is essential for the 90/90 method to work over a wide range of shots purely systematically.

Colin

Attached is the gif used to show the pivot on that shot.
Here is that long, perhaps better forgotten thread for those who want to read the discussion or Ron's rather small input on the debate: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=113341
 

Attachments

  • Dave-pivot-move.gif
    Dave-pivot-move.gif
    83.7 KB · Views: 652
Last edited:
Colin Colenso said:
I think it was generally agreed from an analysis of video in an earlier thread that when Dave (Spidey) demonstrated this shot, there was some upper bridge hand movement and the cue actually pivoted about 10-14 inches back from his bridge.[...]

Thanks. I wasn't involved in that discussion. I would say the stick motion required to achieve the correct aim is not a "pivot."
 
mikepage said:
Thanks. I wasn't involved in that discussion. I would say the stick motion required to achieve the correct aim is not a "pivot."

It's still a pivot. It's just not at the bridge that's all~
 
Back
Top