Advise to Dr. DAVE From Ron V.

Dead Crab said:
OK, here goes, I'll even throw in a pivot shift step.

Item 1: It is possible (with a little practice) to estimate cut angle to within about 1 degree accuracy. It does not require any illegal equipment, but a mark of some sort (I use hole reinforcers) placed on the cue stick 16 and 31 inches from the distal edge of the ferrule is helpful. When the aim line is established with the cue stick, is passes thru the centers of the pocket, OB, and GB. Establish this line with the cue tip just under the overhang of the OB (without bumping it, of course). Drop a line from one of these these cue reference points to the CB-OB line, and perpendicular to the CB-OB line. Estimate the distance of this perpendicular in inches. It is legal to use your hand to estimate this distance if you choose.
If you measured from the 16" point, multiply by 4
If you measured from the 31", multiply by 2
If you measure 3" off the cue butt, multiply by 1

This yields the cut angle, at the GB center, in degrees. Don't proceed until you are comfortable that you can do this accurately.

Item 2: For cut angles up to 30 degrees, the correct "target point" on the OB is 1mm off center for each degree of cut angle. Note that this target point is on the 2-D disc (plane) passing through the center of the OB, viewed from the CB. For cuts over 30, up to 50 degrees, I use about 4 mm for every 5 degrees of cut beyond 30 degrees.

If you can estimate mm distances well, you are set to fix on the target. If you can't, some clockface reference points are: 15 degrees--> 5 or 7 o'clock, 20 degrees--> 7:30 or 4:30, 25 degrees-->8:00 or 4:00.

Or,

Item 3: To find the target point on the OB using shift-pivot-shift, proceed as follows using that convenient 13mm measuring stick at the tip of your cue"

1) Align cue along centers of CB-OB line, with tip slightly off the CB

2) Using the CUE BALL find where the target point would be on the CB "side of the cut", as if it were the OB. Example: suppose you had a shot that was a 13 degree cut to the left. Using the cue tip as a measuring device (one tip width = 13 mm), put the center of the tip aligned with the point 13mm to the left of center on the CUE BALL. As you do this, parallel-shift the cue to point at the desired point on the CB.

Now pivot (pivot point at cue-tip) to aim to center of the OBJECT BALL, then parallel-shift the cue "back to center" so the tip is now pointing thru CB center. Your cue is now aligned thru CB center, and a point 13mm to the right of center on the OB, which is the desired aim line. Fire away. You should get your 13 degree left cut.

Summary:
1) Estimate cut angle in degrees, as described.
2) For angles 0-30 degrees, target the OB 1mm off center for each degree of cut. Because it is easier to estimate mm distances close-up, the appropriate distance can be found on the CB, and thru the shift-pivot-shift sequence described, the CB center and OB target line can be established.
3) The 1mm=1 degree relationship doesn't hold beyond 30 degrees. Up to 50 degrees, I use about 4mm per 5 degrees of cut. Beyond 50 degrees, I am looking for another shot, or using the overlap method, as I personally find it difficult to aim at distances far off the OB.

That is it. Guaranteed to be geometrically correct.

Like anything, it takes some practice.
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Dead Crab,
Nice work!

I see the 1/2 ball is at about 28.5mm which is pretty much spot on what the half ball hit produces after frictional losses. Thank god for mm eh! Would be some hard brain work trying to count in 1/8 inches or something similar.

The non-linearity would cause a little drift here and there, but I would guess it wouldn't float off by much more than a degree or two which is higher accuracy than most of us could hope for.

As for training oneself to see 23 or 27mm etc. Do you use any guides such as cardboard cut outs to improve your visualization? Obviously you can use the CB edge as 28.5 and halfway point as about 14mm as guides. Going out past the edge past 10mm would start getting a little tricky I imagine. [edit] After this I re-read your clock method and understood it. Seems a pretty good way to visualize the points!

btw: I've tried your angle measurement method before and love it. :thumbup:

Colin
 
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dr_dave said:
It is my understanding that the previous discussion in this thread has not involved shots with English. [/INDENT]
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I think you need to spend some time with Mark Avalon.. he is in your neck of the woods...

and if you walk into it as a student rather than a teacher.. you might learn something...

I have an aim line that negated throw like nothing I had ever conceived of on my own...

and it works... I changed sides when I saw the results...

don't theorize on a subject that is easily tested... learn the system ... practice the system... THEN claim it doesn't work..


just sayin...
 
Dead Crab said:
OK, "Doctor", I posted my system at your request, assuming you would give it a fair shake.

You did not. Real engineers do the math. Real engineers try it out. Engineers at the doctorate level do not belittle another's work with silly suggestions.

You like to play the "Doctor" card each and every time you post. Unfortunately, you don't want to pony up the professionalism that comes with the title.

Next time you don't want to take my work seriously, don't ask to have it explained to you.
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Dead Crab,

I am sorry you were offended by my comments. I was just trying to give honest feedback. I saw no need to "do the math" because I was just commenting on the overall concepts, not the details. Concerning my suggestions, I actual thought they were decent ideas "in the spirit" of your system that allow one to "take the numbers out of" the process. If you don't like the ideas, that's fine.

Regards,
Dave
 
softshot said:
I think you need to spend some time with Mark Avalon.. he is in your neck of the woods...

and if you walk into it as a student rather than a teacher.. you might learn something...

I have an aim line that negated throw like nothing I had ever conceived of on my own...

and it works... I changed sides when I saw the results...

don't theorize on a subject that is easily tested... learn the system ... practice the system... THEN claim it doesn't work..


just sayin...
Click to expand...
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm always looking for new people to learn from and share ideas. If you see or talk to him soon, also encourage him to contact me (my contact info is readily available). If you have a phone number or e-mail address for Mark, please PM me. Is he an instructor? Where is he located?

Thanks,
Dave
 
APA7 said:
This must B the biggest laugh, lololol! http://dr-dave-billiards.com/pool_school.html :eek: :sorry: :confused:
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but I can only assume you have negative intent (although, I could be wrong because people have accused me of being overly "defensive" before). FYI, we have had many happy customers both in our group classes and in private lessons, with people of wide ranges of ability.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm always looking for new people to learn from and share ideas. If you see or talk to him soon, also encourage him to contact me (my contact info is readily available). If you have a phone number or e-mail address for Mark, please PM me. Is he an instructor? Where is he located?

Thanks,
Dave
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say that Mark is exactly in your area.

http://www.cascadecuecollege.com/instructors.htm

Fred
 
dr_dave said:
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm always looking for new people to learn from and share ideas. If you see or talk to him soon, also encourage him to contact me (my contact info is readily available). If you have a phone number or e-mail address for Mark, please PM me. Is he an instructor? Where is he located?

Thanks,
Dave
Click to expand...

He is a reputable, sensible, knowledgeable instructor located in the pacific northwest. Ten or more years ago--before everybody was on line--he had an extensive list of internet pool links.
 
My lesson with RonV

So I had some one-on-one time with RonV this past weekend. What a guy! He gave this lesson for free(!) and really took his time to teach me his system. I could tell he had a tremendous amount of knowledge and that there was no way he could teach me everything within the 3 hours that we shared.

So anyways, here's my thoughts on this system:

1) To put it simply, it works. He taught me 90/90, 90/center, 90/reverse 90, and one more which I can't recall the name. After a brief rundown of these methods, I shot some balls with his instructions and I was running balls. I'm not talking about hangers where anybody can make 95% of the time, the shots I shot were randomly spread across the table and he just told me to use what he just taught me. It was pretty cool to say the least. I didn't even have to look at the pocket.

2) I promised to post an unbiased review so here is the con. Because this is a pivot system, the bridge length matters. When the cue ball is near the rail, I tend to shorten up my bridge hand and pivoting from this position royally messed up my aim. However, it is worth mentioning that I quickly adjusted to this by lengthening my bridge length to pivot, and then sliding my bridge hand foward after that. Also, to avoid that altogether, I think you can air-pivot (ala Spidey). Also, initially lining up the shot can be a little bit of a guess work when the balls are really far away. This was where I felt some feel was involved.

After taking my lesson with RonV, I am leaning towards Colin's POV in that this system is an excellent starting point to potting balls in a systematical way. I know that if I line up correctly, pivot, and fire away, the ball is going into the pocket or close to it. Do I still believe that there is a element of "feel" involved? I think so (please don't kill me Ron! :eek: ). We're asking a human body to line up and pivot. Unless a machine is guiding us, we will be using our intuition/feel to "see" the line, and to pivot to the correct point.

Having said that, I think this system will help more people than not. I was talking to Ron after our lesson, and all he wants to do is help people enjoy the game and excel quicker. I recognize that aiming is just a small part of the game, but it is a big stepping stone. If Stevie Moore, Bustamante, and possibly more pro's use some kind of aiming system, I don't think it can hurt my game that much. I'm going to use Ron's teachings in my practice for a couple of weeks to see where it takes me. Maybe I can go from an APA8 to a 9 quicker than I thought...

Thanks again Ron for taking the time to pass on your knowledge!
 
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mikepage said:
He is a reputable, sensible, knowledgeable instructor located in the pacific northwest. Ten or more years ago--before everybody was on line--he had an extensive list of internet pool links.
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Thanks for the info. I can see what Fred meant now. Washington state is not very close to Colorado. I actually already had a link to his pool school in my instructor list site, but I just didn't remember his name.

Regards,
Dave
 
softshot said:
I think you need to spend some time with Mark Avalon.. he is in your neck of the woods...

and if you walk into it as a student rather than a teacher.. you might learn something...

I have an aim line that negated throw like nothing I had ever conceived of on my own...

and it works... I changed sides when I saw the results...

don't theorize on a subject that is easily tested... learn the system ... practice the system... THEN claim it doesn't work..


just sayin...
Click to expand...

This has to be the most sensible post on this sordid thread.

For that matter, this is why I seem to have issues with those that preach/teach, but don't have the abilities or experience to be positioned as an "authority".


Eric
 
shinigami said:
many [...] pro's use some kind of aiming system
Click to expand...
I don't think this is a true statement, depending upon what you mean by an "aiming system."

Thank you for your honest report from your lesson with Ron.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
I don't think this is a true statement, depending upon what you mean by an "aiming system."

Thank you for your honest report from your lesson with Ron.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

I have edited my statement as I do not have evidence...:wink:
 
dr_dave said:
I don't think this is a true statement, depending upon what you mean by an "aiming system."

Thank you for your honest report from your lesson with Ron.

Regards,
Dave
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You don't think or you know they don't. Big difference.
 
***********
Doctor Dave sayeth:
If you don't like the ideas, that's fine.

Regards,
Dave
*****************************

Dude, you are so missing the point. Go back and read the very first post in this thread. You stand accused of not giving Ron V's system a fair shake. So then, you ask for specifics on my aiming system, and what do you do?

You deliver an off the cuff, non-analytical wise-ass response, thereby validating that you are quite capable of doing exactly what Ron V. said you did to him.

Sheesh, get a clue somewhere.
 
shinigami said:
So I had some one-on-one time with RonV this past weekend. What a guy! He gave this lesson for free(!) and really took his time to teach me his system. I could tell he had a tremendous amount of knowledge and that there was no way he could teach me everything within the 3 hours that we shared.

So anyways, here's my thoughts on this system:

1) To put it simply, it works. He taught me 90/90, 90/center, 90/reverse 90, and one more which I can't recall the name. After a brief rundown of these methods, I shot some balls with his instructions and I was running balls. I'm not talking about hangers where anybody can make 95% of the time, the shots I shot were randomly spread across the table and he just told me to use what he just taught me. It was pretty cool to say the least. I didn't even have to look at the pocket.

2) I promised to post an unbiased review so here is the con. Because this is a pivot system, the bridge length matters. When the cue ball is near the rail, I tend to shorten up my bridge hand and pivoting from this position royally messed up my aim. However, it is worth mentioning that I quickly adjusted to this by lengthening my bridge length to pivot, and then sliding my bridge hand foward after that. Also, to avoid that altogether, I think you can air-pivot (ala Spidey). Also, initially lining up the shot can be a little bit of a guess work when the balls are really far away. This was where I felt some feel was involved.

After taking my lesson with RonV, I am leaning towards Colin's POV in that this system is an excellent starting point to potting balls in a systematical way. I know that if I line up correctly, pivot, and fire away, the ball is going into the pocket or close to it. Do I still believe that there is a element of "feel" involved? I think so (please don't kill me Ron! :eek: ). We're asking a human body to line up and pivot. Unless a machine is guiding us, we will be using our intuition/feel to "see" the line, and to pivot to the correct point.

Having said that, I think this system will help more people than not. I was talking to Ron after our lesson, and all he wants to do is help people enjoy the game and excel quicker. I recognize that aiming is just a small part of the game, but it is a big stepping stone. If Stevie Moore, Bustamante, and many more pro's use some kind of aiming system, I don't think it can hurt my game that much. I'm going to use Ron's teachings in my practice for a couple of weeks to see where it takes me. Maybe I can go from an APA8 to a 9 quicker than I thought...

Thanks again Ron for taking the time to pass on your knowledge!
Click to expand...
Nice report Shinigami,
and nice to know my ideas aren't too far off the mark. At least while a player is becoming familiar with the system.

Can you expand on the ranges where you use 90/90, 90/CB and 90/Reverse 90?

Colin
 
cookie man said:
You don't think or you know they don't. Big difference.
Click to expand...
"I don't think" AND "I don't know if" MANY pros use an "aiming system," for several reasons:
- I have not interviewed a large number of pros.

- We would first need to clearly define what we mean by an "aiming system," but I think most people would interpret the phrase as:
a "mechanical" system for aiming basic cut shots such as fractional-ball, CTE, Pro-One, 90/90, SAM, DeadCrab's cut-angle-clockface method, etc.​

- There might be a disconnect between what a pro thinks or says about how he or she is aiming versus how he or she is actually aiming.
​
The only attempt I've seen in writing to address this question can be found here:


I didn't write this article, and I don't mean to imply it is the ultimate reference on this topic, but it is interesting.

Regards,
Dave
 
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Again, I am sorry if I offended you. That was not my intent.

I read your post carefully, thought about it some, made few sketches, and tried it at the table. Then I gave you my honest thoughts along with some recommendations. I don't feel like I need to defend myself for this.

Sincerely,
Dave

Dead Crab said:
Dude, you are so missing the point. Go back and read the very first post in this thread. You stand accused of not giving Ron V's system a fair shake. So then, you ask for specifics on my aiming system, and what do you do?

You deliver an off the cuff, non-analytical wise-ass response, thereby validating that you are quite capable of doing exactly what Ron V. said you did to him.

Sheesh, get a clue somewhere.
Click to expand...
 
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