Advise to Dr. DAVE From Ron V.

[SpiderWebComm]

Who in this thread do you think doesn't meet these criteria? Otherwise, what's the relevance here?

pj
chgo

I think Jude was referring to you...

Sorry, I lost my social "training wheels."

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Who in this thread do you think doesn't meet these criteria? Otherwise, what's the relevance here?

pj
chgo

I simply wanted to offer my opinion on Ron V. I know him. I know many here have never met him and I wanted to express that he's an experienced player.

Even this part?

Anything less than this and you leave yourself as fair game to criticism if you go on to write a column for a national publication or a book on how to play pool.

Does Ron have a column or a book I don't know about?

pj
chgo

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude,
Seems to me this post infers that Dave has criticized Ron. His article outlined the some of the geometrical complexities of 90/90. How Ron teaches it was not mentioned.

And while I'd agree that Dr. Dave would not be ideally qualified as a career coach, that takes a player under his wing and takes him through to pro-ranks, he's more than capable of taking groups of league players, who have limited knowledge of the tecnical aspects of the game, and bringing them up to speed very effectively.

Being a professional educator is a very useful qualification that many playing coaches don't have.

There is different kinds of coaching / instruction. There is a demand for the service Dave provides. There's a different demand for what Ron V provides.

Colin

On what level would there be a demand for Dave's services? Do you think there is an absence of intellects among players A-level and above? I'm sorry but I can't agree with you here.

 

[Cornerman]

You're dodging my perception point - which is the foundation, imo.

My comment above addresses your perception point directly. Imperfect perception doesn't make all systems equal. Some systems are more "perfect" than others regardless of execution.

I guess I don't understand how you're addressing his perception point. You've now twice addressed it by discussing execution. He's not talking about execution when he says "perception." He's talking about optics and what RonV implied as optical illusion. It reads like you're talking about swinging the stick.

Fred

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Even this part?



Does Ron have a column or a book I don't know about?

pj
chgo

Yes, he has a book on how to play pool. I can't remember the name of it and he sells it himself.

 

[cookie man]

Who in this thread do you think doesn't meet these criteria? Otherwise, what's the relevance here?

pj
chgo

Jude wasn't knocking anyone, just defending Ron V. But since you brought it up PJ what are your qualifications???

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Yes, he has a book on how to play pool. I can't remember the name of it and he sells it himself.

He doesn't sell it. It's BEAUTIFULLY produced and bound - must've cost a fortune per book. He gives them for free with an half-day lesson. Students only.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude wasn't knocking anyone, just defending Ron V. But since you brought it up PJ what are your qualifications???

Well, just so we're clear, I had no intention of arguing specifically with PJ. I'm not even sure I know PJ's opinion on this but I'll be happy to view it if someone can post where to look.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

since you brought it up PJ what are your qualifications???

For what? Posting in this thread?

What are yours?

pj
chgo

 

[Cornerman]

Jude,
Seems to me this post infers that Dave has criticized Ron.

Let's not be coy, and let's not beat around the bush. Dave DID criticize Ron. In fact, Dave's article in question criticized many people who teach or simply push these types of aiming systems.

Even if he "didn't intend to criticize," the fact that Dave writes in his article

"I worry (and know) some people will think this article is disrespectful to some of the well-known instructors out there that promote and teach basic cut-shot aiming systems. This was certainly not my intent"​

He knows some people will think this is disrespectful, because he knows the language he uses and the way it is written mocks the people who over the years of internet forum use praised and raved on these systems. Intent or not, he knew it was going to come across as disrespectful. So, how can anyone expect any other response?

Am I insulting Dave by saying this??? Of course not. I'm repeating what he himself wrote!!! Am I insulted by Dave's article? Sure I am. He's virtually quoted some of things I've said for years with a mocking tone, to which we have the same looney lengthy threads saying the same thing over and over.

Did I care? No. That's why I didn't bother reading any of these threads.

Fred

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You're dodging my perception point - which is the foundation, imo.

My comment above addresses your perception point directly. Imperfect perception doesn't make all systems equal. Some systems are more "perfect" than others regardless of execution.

I guess I don't understand how you're addressing his perception point. You've now twice addressed it by discussing execution. He's not talking about execution when he says "perception." He's talking about optics and what RonV implied as optical illusion. It reads like you're talking about swinging the stick.

Fred

I consider perception part of "execution" (the human element) - I even use both words in my post. We're talking about the same thing.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I consider perception part of "execution" (the human element) - I even use both words in my post. We're talking about the same thing.

pj
chgo

Perception and execution are TOOOOOOOOTALLY different things. omg

 

[Cornerman]

I consider perception part of "execution" (the human element) - I even use both words in my post. We're talking about the same thing.

pj
chgo

It's not the same and they are most definitely separate discussions. The perception discussion is the crux of the argument for aiming systems. It just points to the importance of being in the same room to discuss it.

Execution (swinging) is it's own thing and should be equal under all systems.

If you need more on perception, you might want to re-examine my other post. If that isn't clear, then table discussion is paramount. No question about it.

Fred

 

[Colin Colenso]

On what level would there be a demand for Dave's services? Do you think there is an absence of intellects among players A-level and above? I'm sorry but I can't agree with you here.

I already stated that Dave is an excellent teacher for those learning the fundamentals. I'd also say that he'd be a good consultant for elite players who would like to get a better grasp on the known physics of the game.

I didn't say that A-players aren't intellects. I meant that few have experience teaching or setting a curriculum. Taking on groups to teach them requires planning and experience to do well.

Colin

 

[cookie man]

PJ, you know exactly what i'm talking about. You've drawn improper diagrams about 90/90, you have refused to try the system at the table(your words) don't deney it. So you have no qualifications on this thread. I personally use 90/90 for the last year, and I know it works.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Execution (swinging) is it's own thing and should be equal under all systems.

Is execution JUST swinging? I would argue that perception is a part of execution in the sense that it has to be part of your routine. In my opinion, the most important aspect of my "execution routine" is getting in proper position to perceive the shot angle before entering my stance. It's hard to separate the two, from what I see.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

On what level would there be a demand for Dave's services?

Here and in Billiards Digest, to name two public venues.

Do you think there is an absence of intellects among players A-level and above?

Are you saying that because there are intellects among A+ players they wouldn't have an interest in Dave's info?

I think the information Dave provides (I don't know if it's really "teaching") is potentially useful to players at all levels, assuming they can understand how to use it. That's a big assumption, maybe biggest at the highest levels of play.

pj
chgo

 

[Cornerman]

Is execution JUST swinging? I would argue that perception is a part of execution in the sense that it has to be part of your routine. In my opinion, the most important aspect of my "execution routine" is getting in proper position to perceive the shot angle before entering my stance. It's hard to separate the two, from what I see.

I"d invite you to read the other threads, Jude. Specifically, my thread about the disconnect between 2D and reality (search 'disconnect' on this thread).

.If this wasn't a discussion on aiming systems, I'd tend to agree with you. But, if we're talking about where aiming systems help, then the examination of perception, optics, and visual imagery is a separate discussion from alignment and from swinging the stick.

Fred

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I already stated that Dave is an excellent teacher for those learning the fundamentals. I'd also say that he'd be a good consultant for elite players who would like to get a better grasp on the known physics of the game.

I didn't say that A-players aren't intellects. I meant that few have experience teaching or setting a curriculum. Taking on groups to teach them requires planning and experience to do well.

Colin

No, I didn't think you meant that either (A-players aren't intellects). I meant that there are plenty of capable player A-level and above who are. With that said, "demand for Dr. Dave's services" should be defined. What services are you referring to? If it's an intellect's approach on how to pool, I would say no. There are others equally intelligent yet more capable at pool. If his service is to be published as a mathematician's analysis of pool, he would be perfectly entitled to say what he will but how to play pool should be left to the pool players.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I consider perception part of "execution" (the human element) - I even use both words in my post. We're talking about the same thing.

pj
chgo

It's not the same and they are most definitely separate discussions.

Dave and I are both talking about perception. I wasn't talking about other aspects of execution, only perception.

pj
chgo