Advise to Dr. DAVE From Ron V.

[Colin Colenso]

... maybe the adjustments required could be discussed instead.
Just a thought.
Chuck

Funny post Chuck :thumbup:

FWIW, I think most of the debate has been about getting some feedback from the system users on if or how they adjust. The disagreement has often been because some claim the system takes them to the angle. i.e. No adjustment. (at least for ranges of shot angles)

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

Let all the people who subscribe to your theories, match up with SVB or Scott Frost (or hundreds of others) and if they can WIN.... I will be the first to admit I was wrong.
Dick

Dick,
Imagine a kicking competition. I'd expect the winner would be a player who knows and plays some kicking systems.

Imagine a positional competion, where the players are challenged to pot a ball and run the cue ball through some pretty challenging lines. I'd imagine someone with some BHE knowledge would have an advantage here.

In a pure potting competition I think I'd back the snooker players who tend not to rely on anything that we'd call a system. Unless you'd call looking at the contact point a system. Could the CTE'rs, ETE'rs or Pro One'rs go past them on pure potting? I dunno. Some think they will. I for one would enjoy watching some challenges.

I play a game where the CB has to hit 2 rails on every pot. I couldn't imagine playing this game well without being very good at potting with english. I thought I was pretty good at potting with english in my early days, but I'm a heck of a lot better thesedays due the the system I've developed for Back Hand English.

btw: Don't you use some of the systems in Freddy's book when you're playing 1-Pocket?

Colin

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Funny post Chuck :thumbup:

FWIW, I think most of the debate has been about getting some feedback from the system users on if or how they adjust. The disagreement has often been because some claim the system takes them to the angle. i.e. No adjustment. (at least for ranges of shot angles)

Colin

I think that was the point of my perception post above, Colin. I perceive myself to go to center and make the ball. I'm not figuring adjustments for many shots - and some shots I know I have to adjust based on what I need to do. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean I don't perceive an imperfect alignment line that enables me to pivot to center ball and make it perfectly. Does that make sense?

The point of my post above is I believe an above average pivoter (if there's such a word) will make more hard balls more often in the long run than an above average feel player because of the systematic repetition and lack of variables. Before everyone flames me, it's just an opinion. I could be full of horsesht since I never tested it and no one prob will.

Cheers -
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Every aiming system is an approximation system because of one's sighting flaws / perception flaws.

Some systems (ghost ball, double overlap, etc.) are exact by nature but humans can't execute them exactly. "Approximation systems" are inexact by nature and humans can't execute them exactly.

pj
chgo

 

[Colin Colenso]

I think that was the point of my perception post above, Colin. I perceive myself to go to center and make the ball. I'm not figuring adjustments for many shots - and some shots I know I have to adjust based on what I need to do. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean I don't perceive an imperfect alignment line that enables me to pivot to center ball and make it perfectly. Does that make sense?

The point of my post above is I believe an above average pivoter (if there's such a word) will make more hard balls more often in the long run than an above average feel player because of the systematic repetition and lack of variables. Before everyone flames me, it's just an opinion. I could be full of horsesht since I never tested it and no one prob will.

Cheers -
Dave

Dave,
I think it's good that you try to describe what you do, or what you perceive yourself to be doing, so we may get a better picture of how the system is being executed.

If you're knocking in hard shots regularly then it makes sense to listen and to try to understand it.

I would like to get some measure of the accuracy of your potting though, just to see if you really are potting at, near or above A standard. Perhaps we should set up 5 set challenge shots. The players shoots 20 of each for a total out of 100. Shots would be those an A player would make about 60-70% of the time.

We could use the honor system, as the Seinfeld crew did. It's not a witch hunt after all.

Colin

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Some systems (ghost ball, double overlap, etc.) are exact by nature but humans can't execute them exactly. "Approximation systems" are inexact by nature and humans can't execute them exactly.

pj
chgo

Perception is the key. What good is 'exact in nature' when it's offset with sighting perception that's more imperfect than ETE/CTE. Would love to get you to a table and have you tell me where the bottom of the ghost ball is for a few shots, mark it and test (sighting only - no pivoting your cue). I'd like to do the same thing with a ETE/CTE pivot, mark and test.

Get a few people and now you have your little scientific test. Geometry is great, but only with perfect perception. I think the end of this debate once and for all is to test the average variance from the center pocket line for a small group of people using ghost-ball estimation and aim point estimation after a ETE/CTE pivot. Right?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Dave,
I think it's good that you try to describe what you do, or what you perceive yourself to be doing, so we may get a better picture of how the system is being executed.

If you're knocking in hard shots regularly then it makes sense to listen and to try to understand it.

I would like to get some measure of the accuracy of your potting though, just to see if you really are potting at, near or above A standard. Perhaps we should set up 5 set challenge shots. The players shoots 20 of each for a total out of 100. Shots would be those an A player would make about 60-70% of the time.

We could use the honor system, as the Seinfeld crew did. It's not a witch hunt after all.

Colin

I never said I was an A player but would love to. You have my email... email me the shots and I'll email you the video uneditted. I'm not posting it here though-- you can confirm my results to the group.

edit: I fear I'd get bored before 100 - can't we just do 50 and multiply results by 2?
edit 2: PJ, are you in too?
edit 3: another ghost ball b player wanna join in just for fun?

 

[SJDinPHX]

Dick,
Imagine a kicking competition. I'd expect the winner would be a player who knows and plays some kicking systems.

Imagine a positional competion, where the players are challenged to pot a ball and run the cue ball through some pretty challenging lines. I'd imagine someone with some BHE knowledge would have an advantage here.

In a pure potting competition I think I'd back the snooker players who tend not to rely on anything that we'd call a system. Unless you'd call looking at the contact point a system. Could the CTE'rs, ETE'rs or Pro One'rs go past them on pure potting? I dunno. Some think they will. I for one would enjoy watching some challenges.

I play a game where the CB has to hit 2 rails on every pot. I couldn't imagine playing this game well without being very good at potting with english. I thought I was pretty good at potting with english in my early days, but I'm a heck of a lot better thesedays due the the system I've developed for Back Hand English.

btw: Don't you use some of the systems in Freddy's book when you're playing 1-Pocket?

Colin

No Colin, I'm sorry but I don't. Can you please explain to me (briefly please) exactly what "BHE" means, and how it relates to getting out for the cash ?

Dick

 

[SJDinPHX]

Most of the world's bangers had also never heard of those terms either. A lot of the things we talk about are fairly recent discussions (in the last ten years) and the fact that we ARE all able to communicate in several ways, with text, diagrams, animations, and videos, allows us to understand the UNDERLYING physical actions going on in pool.

I don't know what spirit you intend this to be in but you are coming across to me as if you are being quite backhanded about the whole thing.

What does it really matter to you whether a bunch of geeks like to talk high math when discussing pool? So what? You know what it takes to be a champion.

In poker I once heard someone say that at the highest level ALL the players know the odds and probabilities and can figure those in a split second. That's where it comes down to SKILL.

WE ALL KNOW that NO ONE is going to become a champion because they play pool with a calculator that figures the perfect line of aim every time.

We know that so why do you keep pushing this? Why should YOU CARE about this at all?

After all you have said that you have NO INTEREST in teaching beginners how to play. So why does this bother you so much?

Do you think that if someone tells a beginner to use an aiming system that this will ruin the player for life? Is that it?

Bustamante uses SOME kind of aiming method that is CLEARLY different than ghost ball. Do you think Scott Frost would like to play him some 9 or 10 ball on his OWN MONEY?

I asked you three times to tell us how YOU AIM. Is that so hard to answer a SIMPLE QUESTION?

Or is it not so simple?

John,

I have tried to express my "aiming system" in the best way I know how many times. The fact that I cannot put it in an equation seems to frustrate you.
The bottom line is I have NO aiming system. I have simply made a lot of the balls go into the hole, a lot of times, without relying on ANY system. Is that too hard for you to comprehend. Can you not believe that someone can be very competitive at this game WITHOUT a "system" ? I'm sorry if I can't answer your question.

Sincerely,

Dick

PS Please don't try to make me out a bad guy for being honest, and expressing my feelings.

 

[JB Cases]

John,

I have tried to express my "aiming system" in the best way I know how many times. The fact that I cannot put it in an equation seems to frustrate you.
The bottom line is I have NO aiming system. I have simply made a lot of the balls go into the hole, a lot of times, without relying on ANY system. Is that too hard for you to comprehend. Can you not believe that someone can be very competitive at this game WITHOUT a "system" ? I'm sorry if I can't answer your question.

Sincerely,

Dick

PS Please don't try to make me out a bad guy for being honest, and expressing my feelings.

I am not trying to make you out to be a bad guy. But when you say you have no system you aren't being honest.

When you are going to shoot a shot what do you see? How do you see it? How do you know that you are right on?

If it's as simple as I just see it then that's fine but you know in your heart that there was a time in your life when you did not just see it.

You and I both know tons of players who play great without any books, tapes, or real lessons. So what?

There are also players who play great AFTER having read books, taken lesson, and using systems.

My problem with your tone is that you imply that it's all BS and no true champion would ever come close to using a "system".

However those two assertions have been proven false many times over.

Then you go on to imply that great pool is ONLY a result of experience and talent. I won't totally disagree with you there BUT using an aiming system/method that works to get you on the right line is but ONE experience among MANY that go into playing pool at any decent level.

I would EXPECT that when a player gets to your level that they would have no need of any kind of system OR that whatever they use is so automatic that it's not obvious that they are doing anything extra.

What frustrates me is the way you talk to us in such a condescending manner. We are your fans, all us are fans of championship caliber players. We respect you until you dog us. And that is what you are doing right now. You learned the game on the road and through tough experience. Some folks here don't have that "luxury" to live that lifestyle.

When I was 18 years old I was eating and sleeping pool. At 19 I had already been "on the road" from Miami to OKC and back. One night in the Miscue Lounge I made a decent score of about $600 and I had two players (CHAMPIONS) put the bite on me not 60 seconds after getting the cash. I was a pretty soft touch and walked out about $200 lighter.

On the way home that night I started to think about what happened. I played my heart out for six hours, came away with the win, and only had $400 to show for after giving $200 to charity (because I knew I would never see that money again). I thought about all the players I knew that were so much better than me and always broke, sleeping in their cars, living on the edge. And honestly I wasn't far from the edge myself at that point. So yeah, it takes a LOT of grit to become a champion under those conditions. You had better figure out how to aim and execute SOMEHOW or get a real job. I have been on your side of the fence, not as deeply as you lived the life but I was there.

The thing is though is that are a lot more people who LOVE pool who don't have the opportunity to get better through the school of experience. They don't have the time to stay up all night mixing it up, they don't have the money to put themselves in tough action to get seasoned. Those people also want to excel at pool but they don't have ten hours a day to hang around a pool room and soak up experience. They don't have great players around them to give them a nudge now and then.

These are the players who read books, watch tapes, take lessons and grasp at anything that will help them get better.

Why do you want to take that away from them?

If you were to write a book on One Pocket or make a video I would buy it. Whether you were right or wrong I would take from it what I could. Who makes you an authority on one pocket though? I know that you are a great player but you don't get mentioned as being in the same league as Ronnie Allen, Marshall Carpenter, Jersey Red and so on. But if you wrote a book I'd buy it because I don't have the luxury of running the road and learning one pocket the HARD way by getting in action.

But whose advice should I take? Yours, Billy Incardona's, Willie Jopling's, Grady's? Mike from LA? The answer is everyone's. Then I need to get on the table and practice that advice and make it part of my game. Same thing with aiming systems.

They either work or they don't. But that is up to me, the player, to find that out. If they work then I need to make them such a part of my game that aiming becomes automatic and the results speak for themselves. The results being, to use your expression, "make a lot of the balls go into the hole, a lot of times."

 

[JB Cases]

No Colin, I'm sorry but I don't. Can you please explain to me (briefly please) exactly what "BHE" means, and how it relates to getting out for the cash ?

Dick

I will explain it to you. BHE is Back Hand English and refers to lining up on the shot with center ball and pivoting the back hand to apply spin.

So when you have a tough out with 7, 8 and 9 left on the table and you are out of line on the 7 and need to shoot it in with a lot of inside english to get position on the 8 it's WAY easier to do this with BHE than it is to do it by trying to guess how much to compensate for cueball deflection using PE - parallel english. Since it's WAY easier it means that a player who uses it is more likely to make those troublesome shots and get the cheese.

I can see it when I play people. I know just exactly the shots they are going to miss because they can't judge where to aim with the english they need to use.

With BHE you can come with all kinds of shots that are WAY more difficult using parallel english.

For what it's worth you can also get down on the ball with your BHE already locked in. Personally I think that this is what a lot of players do subconsciously. I think that they see the line - know what english they want and simply get down on the ball with no pivot BUT already in the same position AS IF they had used BHE - which would be the equivalent of "no system - I just see it".

Joe Tucker says the same thing and it makes sense.

 

[RiverCity]

Dave,
I think it's good that you try to describe what you do, or what you perceive yourself to be doing, so we may get a better picture of how the system is being executed.

If you're knocking in hard shots regularly then it makes sense to listen and to try to understand it.

I would like to get some measure of the accuracy of your potting though, just to see if you really are potting at, near or above A standard. Perhaps we should set up 5 set challenge shots. The players shoots 20 of each for a total out of 100. Shots would be those an A player would make about 60-70% of the time.

We could use the honor system, as the Seinfeld crew did. It's not a witch hunt after all.

Colin

Here is what I have found out so far, and keep in mind I have not spoken to Ron about this, I just took the initial idea and saw what it takes to make it work. I broke it down to a version of the fraction systems, and so far it is working nicely, about the only shots I am missing is when I know I am not set up correctly, yet shoot anyways, I pick the wrong fraction of ball (if I miss with a 1/4 ball hit, I set the shot up again, and it will go with say a 1/2 ball or the beginning 90/90 etc). Important point to remember.... the cue tip begins on the same side of the cue ball as the object ball will travel after contact. Meaning if you want to cut the OB to the left, you start with the tip on the left hand side of the cue balls vertical center.

Seems to work for straight in shots as well as slight cuts.... I know it sounds odd, but it does up to about a half a table distance. At 3/4 table or more it reacts almost like a half ball hit.

Again a midway adjustment when full ball pivot isn't enough an CTE or 1/2 ball is too much.

CTE works for shots in the 30 ish degree range, much like the regular fractional systems.

1/4 ball before pivot. Again, another midway adjustment point.

And the thin ball hit. I have actually found this one works a little better if you pivot a hair past center into about a 1/2 tip of outside english.

Colin, please post the A player shots you spoke of..... you have peaked my interest.
Chuck

 

[cookie man]

I never said I was an A player but would love to. You have my email... email me the shots and I'll email you the video uneditted. I'm not posting it here though-- you can confirm my results to the group.

edit: I fear I'd get bored before 100 - can't we just do 50 and multiply results by 2?
edit 2: PJ, are you in too?
edit 3: another ghost ball b player wanna join in just for fun?

Dave I'm in if I can come up to your house. I have no idea how to film shots.

 

[Colin Colenso]

No Colin, I'm sorry but I don't. Can you please explain to me (briefly please) exactly what "BHE" means, and how it relates to getting out for the cash ?

Dick

Dick,
Briefly (BHE) Back Hand English is a method of aiming to pot balls using english. That is, left or right hand side.

If I know how long to place my bridge (I have a detailed system to determine this) all I have to do is line up the pot as if I am potting it with medium speed natural roll. I keep my bridge steady there and I can just shift my back hand across so the front of the tip pivots across to where I want to hit the CB with english.

Then I just fire straight and the ball goes in.

So any shot that I am confident of potting with natural roll, I am almost equally as confident at potting that shot using any amount of english I desire.

Here is a video that explains how it is done:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERFTM8dbat0

Colin

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Dave I'm in if I can come up to your house. I have no idea how to film shots.

I'm only in if PJ is in. Otherwise we'll post a score and armchair quarterback will knock it, no matter what it is.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I never said I was an A player but would love to. You have my email... email me the shots and I'll email you the video uneditted. I'm not posting it here though-- you can confirm my results to the group.

edit: I fear I'd get bored before 100 - can't we just do 50 and multiply results by 2?
edit 2: PJ, are you in too?
edit 3: another ghost ball b player wanna join in just for fun?

Dave,
I put the shots in a new thread. Go check it out.

It's actually 16 shots. I think it gives a pretty broad range and it uses each shot symmetrically which tests to see if people can shoot the same shots from different sides well.

People could use this as a routine to measure their potting improvement and to track which side is stronger and the shots they struggle with.

A few of the shots are pretty tough if you've got tight pockets.

Remember, a lot of A players have great strategy, great layout planning and good shape skills. They're not necessarily super potters. Even the pros miss quite a few of these when they're under pressure.

Shoot 2 or 3 of each if you're bored and multiply the total to make it out of 80. Problem with that though, it it might take the first couple of shots to get your eye / pivot in

Colin

 

[SJDinPHX]

I am not trying to make you out to be a bad guy. But when you say you have no system you aren't being honest.

When you are going to shoot a shot what do you see? How do you see it? How do you know that you are right on?

If it's as simple as I just see it then that's fine but you know in your heart that there was a time in your life when you did not just see it.

You and I both know tons of players who play great without any books, tapes, or real lessons. So what?

There are also players who play great AFTER having read books, taken lesson, and using systems.

My problem with your tone is that you imply that it's all BS and no true champion would ever come close to using a "system".

However those two assertions have been proven false many times over.

Then you go on to imply that great pool is ONLY a result of experience and talent. I won't totally disagree with you there BUT using an aiming system/method that works to get you on the right line is but ONE experience among MANY that go into playing pool at any decent level.

I would EXPECT that when a player gets to your level that they would have no need of any kind of system OR that whatever they use is so automatic that it's not obvious that they are doing anything extra.

What frustrates me is the way you talk to us in such a condescending manner. We are your fans, all us are fans of championship caliber players. We respect you until you dog us. And that is what you are doing right now. You learned the game on the road and through tough experience. Some folks here don't have that "luxury" to live that lifestyle.

When I was 18 years old I was eating and sleeping pool. At 19 I had already been "on the road" from Miami to OKC and back. One night in the Miscue Lounge I made a decent score of about $600 and I had two players (CHAMPIONS) put the bite on me not 60 seconds after getting the cash. I was a pretty soft touch and walked out about $200 lighter.

On the way home that night I started to think about what happened. I played my heart out for six hours, came away with the win, and only had $400 to show for after giving $200 to charity (because I knew I would never see that money again). I thought about all the players I knew that were so much better than me and always broke, sleeping in their cars, living on the edge. And honestly I wasn't far from the edge myself at that point. So yeah, it takes a LOT of grit to become a champion under those conditions. You had better figure out how to aim and execute SOMEHOW or get a real job. I have been on your side of the fence, not as deeply as you lived the life but I was there.

The thing is though is that are a lot more people who LOVE pool who don't have the opportunity to get better through the school of experience. They don't have the time to stay up all night mixing it up, they don't have the money to put themselves in tough action to get seasoned. Those people also want to excel at pool but they don't have ten hours a day to hang around a pool room and soak up experience. They don't have great players around them to give them a nudge now and then.

These are the players who read books, watch tapes, take lessons and grasp at anything that will help them get better.

Why do you want to take that away from them?

If you were to write a book on One Pocket or make a video I would buy it. Whether you were right or wrong I would take from it what I could. Who makes you an authority on one pocket though? I know that you are a great player but you don't get mentioned as being in the same league as Ronnie Allen, Marshall Carpenter, Jersey Red and so on. But if you wrote a book I'd buy it because I don't have the luxury of running the road and learning one pocket the HARD way by getting in action.

But whose advice should I take? Yours, Billy Incardona's, Willie Jopling's, Grady's? Mike from LA? The answer is everyone's. Then I need to get on the table and practice that advice and make it part of my game. Same thing with aiming systems.

They either work or they don't. But that is up to me, the player, to find that out. If they work then I need to make them such a part of my game that aiming becomes automatic and the results speak for themselves. The results being, to use your expression, "make a lot of the balls go into the hole, a lot of times."

John,

It's 7:30 AM here in Phx. I have a busy day today, but this evening, I will answer your somewhat presumptious indictment as to my skills (or lack thereof) and how I was able to reach ANY level at all without applying physics and engineering principles. I will be sending it via your email address
www.jbcases.com....is that correct. Feel free to share anything I say to you via email on this forum. I use micro. word better than I do PM's or forums. I will also send a copy to Colin, Dr. Dave, RonV, or anyone else who is interested.
I will do this in hopes of putting this whole subject behind us once and for all.

Dick

 

[dr_dave]

... natural skill and real life experience will, IN MOST CASES, triumph over numerical, engineering, and physics, principles when it comes down to playing the game.

I agree 100%! Nothing can beat raw talent and tens of thousands of hours of successful practice and experience.

... the way to playing "top level" pool, will NOT come from numerical equations.

I agree 100%! Nothing can beat raw talent and tens of thousands of hours of successful practice and experience.

... Let all the people who subscribe to your theories, match up with SVB or Scott Frost (or hundreds of others) and if they can WIN....

This is obviously ridiculous. Nothing can beat raw talent and tens of thousands of hours of successful practice and experience.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

FYI to Dick and others, additional info (videos, articles, postings) on BHE and related topics can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#compensation​

Dick,
Briefly (BHE) Back Hand English is a method of aiming to pot balls using english. That is, left or right hand side.

If I know how long to place my bridge (I have a detailed system to determine this) all I have to do is line up the pot as if I am potting it with medium speed natural roll. I keep my bridge steady there and I can just shift my back hand across so the front of the tip pivots across to where I want to hit the CB with english.

Then I just fire straight and the ball goes in.

So any shot that I am confident of potting with natural roll, I am almost equally as confident at potting that shot using any amount of english I desire.

Here is a video that explains how it is done:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERFTM8dbat0

Colin

 

[Pii]

This is obviously ridiculous. Nothing can beat raw talent and tens of thousands of hours of successful practice and experience.

Regards,
Dave

No kidding we would also need a system for breaking like God and a system on how to play perfect shape.

Anyone have one?