African American pool pros

[jay helfert]

I "bought" that photo on eBay a couple of years ago myself -- only problem is that I never received it

I did show Grady the original scan from the eBay listing, and he also thought of Cannonball.

I think he is probably a generation older than Chapman, however.

How about 'Detroit Slim'? or 'Rotation Slim'? The guy definitely looks like a 'Slim'

This is a younger John Chapman
(Photo is from Part 2 of my interview with Bugs & John Henry, etc)

The only photos I ever saw of Slim, he didn't look like this guy. He had a broader face and flatter head, and a full head of graying hair. Now this guy does look like Cannonball. Just compare the photos. And Cannonball was in his late 40's in the 1960's. So in the 1940's he would have been a young man. Just my guess that's all.

And one more thing. Cannonball may have been the best 14.1 black player other than James Evans.

 

[jay helfert]

As soon as I saw this thread, the first name that came to me was Willie Munson. I wish I would have been able to see him in his early days, I think I was just starting grade school then. From the few old timers I knew in the mid seventies that saw him play, he was hard to beat at any game. The few times I played him, once he saw I could shoot a little, he never left me anything to shoot at!

I beat him playing Banks in Dayton in 1974 for money. If you don't believe me, ask him.

 

[jay helfert]

I "bought" that photo on eBay a couple of years ago myself -- only problem is that I never received it

I did show Grady the original scan from the eBay listing, and he also thought of Cannonball.

I think he is probably a generation older than Chapman, however.

How about 'Detroit Slim'? or 'Rotation Slim'? The guy definitely looks like a 'Slim'

This is a younger John Chapman
(Photo is from Part 2 of my interview with Bugs & John Henry, etc)

In this photo, JC was already well over 40 I'm sure. This is probably from the 60's. He was older than you think.

 

[jay helfert]

You're talking about neighborhood poolrooms or local poolrooms down South. I experienced no such thing in big-time Chicago pool in the '60s. When I got out of the Army in 1961 I went up to Bensingers and got to watch Johnny Cannonball Chapman play Handsome Danny Jones bank pool.
The great Javenly Youngblood Washington played there often, and Richard Baby Brother Powell played in the city 3 cushion championships (and won a few). The era I'm referring to, is late '50s, early '60s. You "talked" to Cisero (that's how you spell his name, incidentally) and Bugs. I hung out, and gambled with Cisero and Bugs. When it came to competing and gambling, color wasnt much of an issue in Chicago. Many people dont know this, but when Eddie Taylor was in town in the '50s he "lived" and played on 51st and Indiana at The House Of Champions, in the heart of what was called then, the Black Belt. There was a smaller pool hall across the street (I think it was called "Grady's") where he had a room upstairs. He stayed there sometimes for months. He liked to drink then, and oftentimes he'd get blind drunk and wander the streets down there, and Grady would send someone out to find him and carry him back home. The old-timers told many stories of waking up a drunk Eddie Taylor, sleeping on a pool table, putting a stick in his hand and leading him to a table to play someone for money. He'd be staggering around the table, but still shooting off all the balls. From what I heard from guys like Jersey Red, the situation in New York was the same.
Incidentally, Cisero was one of the funniest guys I knew. When an earthquake hit a Fred Whalen tournament in LA, when all the pool players were staying at the Elks Club, Cisero and I were on the top floor(the 9th). In the midst of all the chaos, running down the stairs to get out of the building (the elevators were not working) Cisero quipped, "I'm never going on the road without my parachute again."
This is for Cisero's nephew, MrLucky: Your uncle played a straight pool match game of 1500 points against Luther Wimpy Lassiter in Wimpy's home poolroom in Elizabeth NC. Cis beat him handily with a high run of over 200 balls. Put that in the family scrapbook.

the Beard
(I got a line of budget cues on my website now)

Just like you Freddie. I played everywhere and anywhere I could get a game. My cue stick seemed to be a pass to get in anyplace. I played in ALL the black poolrooms in Los Angeles only a couple of years after the Watts riots. And I played pool all over Harlem in the 60's. Hell, even McGirr's downstairs in New York was mostly all black then. I played Banks there with a few different men of color. And they all beat me. Cisero liked me, and I got their respect. I had met him first at 7-11.

There were very few games I won in my six months in New York. But after that, I became a winning player. The 7-11 crew turned me out. Jersey Red, Rex, Ervolino, Shorty, Richie 'From The Bronx', NY Blackie, Pancho, Johnny Irish. What a joint. No place ever was as tough a town to get of with the money then New York.

We were fellow poolplayers. We talked the game and played the game and laughed a lot. Heck, I took you to Charlie Neal's in L.A. in the 60's. You played Iceman One Pocket. You think I don't remember that. He was a great player. We all had a great time and they loved you. Of course you made a small donation as well. You seemed right at home there. Augie was not so confident though. He wanted to leave.

 

[TX Poolnut]

May 1963-Birmingham, Alabama-Rev. Ralph Abernathy leads the singing with a cue stick and Rev. Martin Luther King stands by as the two Negro integration leaders toured the pool halls in Birmingham, Ala. preaching non-violence.

 

[TX Poolnut]

Feb 17, 1966-Chicago: Dr. Martin Luther King tries a difficult behind the back shot while using his "best stick" in a pool match with Chicago civil rights leader Al Raby here. The two leaders of Chicago anti-slum campaign shot a few games.

 

[TX Poolnut]

William "Willie" Owens, who grew up in Indianapolis, was a shortstop for the ABCs (Negro League baseball) from 1925 to 1933. He also played with several other Negro League teams. After retiring from baseball he became a professional pool player and then owned a pool hall and tavern in Indianapolis for many years. He died in 1999, at age 98.

http://www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/history/black_history/negroleagues.html

After baseball, Owens returned to Indianapolis and later owned and operated a pool hall and tavern, traveled the Midwest as a professional pool player and became a Little League baseball volunteer. After construction of Interstate 70 forced him to close his pool hall in 1965, Owens spent much of his time working with children, teaching them baseball, painting and pool -- and preaching the importance of education. "I always tell them, 'Whatever you do, go to school, go to school,"' he said, shaking his head. "I only went through sixth grade. I was so wrapped up in my success, I didn't realize how important school was." Owens' family, with the help of people in the community, petitioned the state for an honorary general equivalency diploma, which he received in 1996.

http://www.nlbpa.com/owens_william.html

 

[vagabond]

As soon as I saw this thread, the first name that came to me was Willie Munson. I wish I would have been able to see him in his early days, I think I was just starting grade school then. From the few old timers I knew in the mid seventies that saw him play, he was hard to beat at any game. The few times I played him, once he saw I could shoot a little, he never left me anything to shoot at!

Willie still plays.I ran into him last May in Riviera at BCA open and asked him what he was doing there.He said that he was plaing in Masters on those Bar Boxes.

 

[TX Poolnut]

Skillful at pool, King impressed Chicagoans during his war on slums in 1967. (Chicago 1967 shooting from the side pocket)

 

[TX Poolnut]

Anyone for some poetry about pool?

Gwendolyn Brooks was born in Topeka, Kansas, in 1917 and raised in Chicago. She is the author of more than twenty books of poetry.

At the top of the page linked below, you will see the play button.

http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15433

 

[freddy the beard]

The black Al Capone

Just like you Freddie. I played everywhere and anywhere I could get a game. My cue stick seemed to be a pass to get in anyplace. I played in ALL the black poolrooms in Los Angeles only a couple of years after the Watts riots. And I played pool all over Harlem in the 60's. Hell, even McGirr's downstairs in New York was mostly all black then. I played Banks there with a few different men of color. And they all beat me. Cisero liked me, and I got their respect. I had met him first at 7-11.

There were very few games I won in my six months in New York. But after that, I became a winning player. The 7-11 crew turned me out. Jersey Red, Rex, Ervolino, Shorty, Richie 'From The Bronx', NY Blackie, Pancho, Johnny Irish. What a joint. No place ever was as tough a town to get of with the money then New York.

We were fellow poolplayers. We talked the game and played the game and laughed a lot. Heck, I took you to Charlie Neal's in L.A. in the 60's. You played Iceman One Pocket. You think I don't remember that. He was a great player. We all had a great time and they loved you. Of course you made a small donation as well. You seemed right at home there. Augie was not so confident though. He wanted to leave.

Jay, at the all night black pool room in Culver City, there was a black guy (not a player) that took a liking to me. He was a good-looking well-dressed guy that everybody around there deferred to. He was a business man, but I'm sure he was big politically and was probably an unnamed gang boss. He gave me his business card and wrote on the back, "Freddy the Beard is a friend of mine, give him the same courtesy you would give me." He told me I could show that card and go anywhere and do anything I wanted, and would never have a problem. I did show it in a few spots too. Do you remember him? It's a cute story how we became friends, I'll tell it sometime.

The Beard
The Beard now has a line of economy cues on my Website.

 

[MrLucky]

Thanks so much for sharing these wonderful pictures !

Skillful at pool, King impressed Chicagoans during his war on slums in 1967. (Chicago 1967 shooting from the side pocket)

I have added them to my collection of Black Pool History ! could you tell me where you have found all of these? Peace Phil / MrLucky

 

[vagabond]

`Slim corney` & late `Lotsapapa` never played in any pro tour.They both were Roadies.They both played at pro speed.Lotsapapa was a real hustler and a very talkative like minnesota Fats.`Slim Korney` is very quiet and soft spoken.

 

[Pushout]

`Slim corney` & late `Lotsapapa` never played in any pro tour.They both were Roadies.They both played at pro speed.Lotsapapa was a real hustler and a very talkative like minnesota Fats.`Slim Korney` is very quiet and soft spoken.

Are you talking about Slim Carney?? Originally from NYC, but I heard he moved to Florida a good many years ago. Would be a lot younger than Latsapapa, though.

 

[Pushout]

`Slim corney`

On second thought, the guy I'm thinking of didn't play all that strong. Good, but not top pro speed, as I remember it.

 

[vagabond]

Are you talking about Slim Carney?? Originally from NYC, but I heard he moved to Florida a good many years ago. Would be a lot younger than Latsapapa, though.

yeah, same guy.One time was living on the east coast of florida.
I always categorize the pros into -top, middle,and bottom.He plays bottom pro speed.Many people get misled by his style of game.It is a hustler style.He never played in a Protour.

 

[NYC cue dude]

back to the question of why there is little participation by blacks in pro pool..........

In the recent months, there has been a great deal of discussion amongst major league baseball executives, general managers, coaches and fans on this very same topic. Lat week, MLB had it's very first "civil rights" game to inspire black youths to become more interested in the game, but more importantly to spark discussion in the recent downward trend of black participation in baseball.

In the two decades following Jackie Robinsons inclusion to the major leagues, blacks had a pretty high percentage of players in mlb. (i don'trecall the exact percentages but they were significant). today those numbers are down drastically, and even they can't figure it out.

Most baseball pundits/experts say that todays black youth are mostly concentrating on basketball and football. When they go to scout in highschools, the pool of prospective players nationwide has the conspicous absence of black baseball athletes. They are currently trying to create "camps" where some of these black youth can go and be convinced and converted to thegame of baseball.

I think the circumstances are very similar, between the lack of interest in baseball and billiards. I have no doubt that if these young black athletes choose to play baseball, they would excel, the same as if they decided to persue pool.

I think the reason is more cultural (incentives) than opportunity. No doubt that every american child that has a chance to participate in any organized sport, including blacks, could, if they choose to, become top athletes in ANY SPORT OF THEIR CHOOSING!!!! I believe the opportunity exists.

Now, if you consider the state of professional pool in america, low payouts and very low television visibility, you will arrive at a more simplified (but correct, imo) explanation.

Randy

 

[MrLucky]

Well randy

back to the question of why there is little participation by blacks in pro pool..........

In the recent months, there has been a great deal of discussion amongst major league baseball executives, general managers, coaches and fans on this very same topic. Lat week, MLB had it's very first "civil rights" game to inspire black youths to become more interested in the game, but more importantly to spark discussion in the recent downward trend of black participation in baseball.

In the two decades following Jackie Robinsons inclusion to the major leagues, blacks had a pretty high percentage of players in mlb. (i don'trecall the exact percentages but they were significant). today those numbers are down drastically, and even they can't figure it out.

Most baseball pundits/experts say that todays black youth are mostly concentrating on basketball and football. When they go to scout in highschools, the pool of prospective players nationwide has the conspicous absence of black baseball athletes. They are currently trying to create "camps" where some of these black youth can go and be convinced and converted to thegame of baseball.

I think the circumstances are very similar, between the lack of interest in baseball and billiards. I have no doubt that if these young black athletes choose to play baseball, they would excel, the same as if they decided to persue pool.

I think the reason is more cultural (incentives) than opportunity. No doubt that every american child that has a chance to participate in any organized sport, including blacks, could, if they choose to, become top athletes in ANY SPORT OF THEIR CHOOSING!!!! I believe the opportunity exists.

Now, if you consider the state of professional pool in america, low payouts and very low television visibility, you will arrive at a more simplified (but correct, imo) explanation.

Randy

I agree with the low payouts in pool as far as why Black Pro level players play more bar and pool room money games and tournys then try to enter the pro matches ! In fact that has been my stance throughout the many post here but as far as Black youth not choosing to play pool I do not see that at all here in Atlanta ! I have been out of the New York Pool scene for quite awhile but still have friends there that play! But I play APA here and there are tons of young players and more coming and joining every week.

 

[pwd72s]

What about Billy Palmer out in Cali?

Billy Palmer...I feel fortunate to have seen him play. Dunno if he's a full time pro or not though.

 

[jay helfert]

Jay, at the all night black pool room in Culver City, there was a black guy (not a player) that took a liking to me. He was a good-looking well-dressed guy that everybody around there deferred to. He was a business man, but I'm sure he was big politically and was probably an unnamed gang boss. He gave me his business card and wrote on the back, "Freddy the Beard is a friend of mine, give him the same courtesy you would give me." He told me I could show that card and go anywhere and do anything I wanted, and would never have a problem. I did show it in a few spots too. Do you remember him? It's a cute story how we became friends, I'll tell it sometime.

The Beard
The Beard now has a line of economy cues on my Website.

Sounds like Rudy Oliver. He was respected from the ghetto to Hollywood. Everyone knew and respected Rudy around poolroooms in L.A.
He died in the early 90's and word went all around L.A. that he had passed away.