Aging players and skill level

Jason Robichaud

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I started watching snooker years ago, Steve Davis was doing most of the winning and then came Hendry. Hendry was a machine potting everything. I never thought I would see him take the beating he did today.

Same with Earl... He was beating everyone and was in a different league.

I wonder what happens to these players once they get a little older. Does the brain handle nerves differently, they don't care or try, not as hungry to win??? You would think with years passing a player would only get better.
 
Jason Robichaud said:
When I started watching snooker years ago, Steve Davis was doing most of the winning and then came Hendry. Hendry was a machine potting everything. I never thought I would see him take the beating he did today.

Same with Earl... He was beating everyone and was in a different league.

I wonder what happens to these players once they get a little older. Does the brain handle nerves differently, they don't care or try, not as hungry to win??? You would think with years passing a player would only get better.


These guys were never very good. It's just luck catching up with them. They stink
:D :D :D :D :D
 
Jason Robichaud said:
When I started watching snooker years ago, Steve Davis was doing most of the winning and then came Hendry. Hendry was a machine potting everything. I never thought I would see him take the beating he did today.

Same with Earl... He was beating everyone and was in a different league.

I wonder what happens to these players once they get a little older. Does the brain handle nerves differently, they don't care or try, not as hungry to win??? You would think with years passing a player would only get better.

I am working with a 93 year old that has been playing for 2 years. He is reading the books, asking a lot of questions. his game is improving everyday. He will never be a pro but he is enjoying this new experience more than anybody I have ever worked with. He doesn't want me to lay down either. He wins one now and then. I gave him an Espiritu cue to help him along. I can't beat him when I use his cane anymore. :)
Peace, Purdman :)
 
Jason Robichaud said:
When I started watching snooker years ago, Steve Davis was doing most of the winning and then came Hendry. Hendry was a machine potting everything. I never thought I would see him take the beating he did today.

Same with Earl... He was beating everyone and was in a different league.

I wonder what happens to these players once they get a little older. Does the brain handle nerves differently, they don't care or try, not as hungry to win??? You would think with years passing a player would only get better.

At 63, this is an issue I care a LOT about. Personally, I'm playing better than ever thanks to great health, an undying passion for the game and the help of some champion players and great instructors.

So far, I've experienced essentially zero decline in neuro-physical capabilities.

Vision is a CRITICAL issue...especially, I think, for players that have never worn glasses. For them, there is a process of not being able to "see the edges" as sharply as before and then the transition to glasses that is always an issue.

Getting pair of "upside down" glasses from Lunetterie St-Lombard in Montreal was a BIG help for me. (450)465-3058.

But I would say that erosion in the motor skills and vision are the key factors.

Regards,
Jim
 
That is what I find strange about the pro players. I would like to know what happens to the pro's. I see people 30-70 playing and getting better. They are not at pro speed and never will, but their skill improves. I understand football, hockey, basketball... advantage to the younger guys, but pool?

Maybe if Jam knows a pro player, she could ask. Does pool start fun and then switch to something else. Does it start to feel like work? Does practice time drop?

I would love to know after watching my snooker idols, Davis and now Hendry, become mortal.
 
av84fun said:
At 63, this is an issue I care a LOT about. Personally, I'm playing better than ever thanks to great health, an undying passion for the game and the help of some champion players and great instructors.

So far, I've experienced essentially zero decline in neuro-physical capabilities.

Vision is a CRITICAL issue...especially, I think, for players that have never worn glasses. For them, there is a process of not being able to "see the edges" as sharply as before and then the transition to glasses that is always an issue.

Getting pair of "upside down" glasses from Lunetterie St-Lombard in Montreal was a BIG help for me. (450)465-3058.

But I would say that erosion in the motor skills and vision are the key factors.

Regards,
Jim

I am wondering if it is passion. Like anything the novelty wears. New cars, toys, girlfriends... they all become regular with time. And for us or anyone at any age, something new can equal passion. Maybe that is why new older players improve at pool.
 
With the effort it takes to keep a pro at the level they are accustom to, I can see where someone would get a little burned out on that day-to-day grind.
 
av84fun said:
...For them, there is a process of not being able to "see the edges" as sharply as before and then the transition to glasses that is always an issue.
Jim

When he was in his 70s and still in the top 16 in British snooker and English billiards, Fred Davis (Joe's bro) was quoted as saying something to the effect of: "People ask me if I have a problem potting with glasses on. I tell 'em, all my life the balls have appeared fuzzy to me."
 
I think for most games, players peek in their 40's. However, one pocket has no age limitations and Efren will be kicking ass when he's in his 60's.
 
age

Jude Rosenstock said:
These guys were never very good. It's just luck catching up with them. They stink
:D :D :D :D :D
Watch it sonny!!! 70yr and still play pretty sporty,and thanks to vigra, i might be at your back door!!!!!:D :D :D :confused: :confused:
 
Eye sight, booze, smoke. and age. Eating bar food and staying up for long marathons. All of these factors take a toll on the body.
 
Roadkill said:
I think for most games, players peek in their 40's. However, one pocket has no age limitations and Efren will be kicking ass when he's in his 60's.

Efren has been in the LA area and been in constant action. This afternoon he took down Bernardo "King Kong" Chavez 5-1 playing 10-6. Efren was obviously really enjoying himself. I don't think anyone has a passion for pool that can compare with Efren's. He just plain LOVES to play!
 
Jason Robichaud said:
When I started watching snooker years ago, Steve Davis was doing most of the winning and then came Hendry. Hendry was a machine potting everything. I never thought I would see him take the beating he did today.

Same with Earl... He was beating everyone and was in a different league.

I wonder what happens to these players once they get a little older. Does the brain handle nerves differently, they don't care or try, not as hungry to win??? You would think with years passing a player would only get better.

No reason a player can't still be very strong until their late 50's or so. Case in point, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Jimmy Moore, Luther Lassiter, Boston Shorty, Johnny Ervolino, Cornbread, Jersey Red, Danny Diliberto, Ray Martin, Buddy Hall, Nick Varner, Wade Crane, Jim Rempe, Jose Parica and soon Efren and Hopkins. There are more but these are only a few examples of players who excelled well after age 50.

To answer your excellent question, I believe it is a lack of motivation (burn out) and an equally poor work ethic that causes older players to lose their edge. Pool, like Golf, takes constant practice to maintain sharpness. You simply cannot stay at the top playing an hour or two a week and trying to get in stroke a few days before a tournament.

I found it quite interesting that Earl was hitting balls and practicing AFTER he was eliminated in Phoenix last week. This is the "old" Earl who worked harder than anyone else. Only Varner (and Mark Tadd) would put in as many hours practicing during a tournament. I think Earl knows he is not quite as sharp as he used to be.

Watching him play last week, I saw that he still played good with flashes of his old form. But, and this is a big one, he just missed more balls than he used to. And after all, that is the name of the game. You must pocket ball after ball, and rarely miss to be a top player. I always tell people I'm working with, you MUST make the ball first. Everything else (like position) is secondary. If you miss, your turn is over. Pretty simple huh.

This minor difference is what now makes Earl merely a good player and no longer a great one. He can still execute all the shots he did before. If he can cut down on the missed balls, he can be a winner again.
 
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Jason Robichaud said:
That is what I find strange about the pro players. I would like to know what happens to the pro's. I see people 30-70 playing and getting better. They are not at pro speed and never will, but their skill improves. I understand football, hockey, basketball... advantage to the younger guys, but pool?

Maybe if Jam knows a pro player, she could ask. Does pool start fun and then switch to something else. Does it start to feel like work? Does practice time drop?

I would love to know after watching my snooker idols, Davis and now Hendry, become mortal.

Jay is right that a lack of motivation can be a huge issue. Obviously, that was the case with Sigel.

Another huge issue is personal lifestyles and we all know the stories about booze and drugs and the lives/careers they have ruined.

Personally, I don't count as GREAT CHAMPIONS those who supposedly were unbeatable...when they were sober/straight. Being a TRUE champion means that you can overcome ANYTHING that life throws at you.

To get in my CHAMPION book you gotta show me the titles or show me the money...otherwise you were just a great player who kept coming up with excuses for losing.

Finally, not everyone realizes what a RARE, RARE breed the truly great champions are. They play FAR more often than not at a skill level that most of us can just dream about.

Using names like, Nicklaus, Ted Williams and Montana as examples, there are not 100 TRUE CHAMPIONS in the modern history of cue sports out of the tens of millions of people who have taken the game very, very seriously.

It's just another level...another league altogether that those men and women play at and yet the true champions tend to get lumped together with the rest of the field.

Allison Fisher is a perfect example. She is referred to as a "femal pro" but the TRUTH is...there is the WPBA...and then there is Allison Fisher, playing at two entirely different skill levels.

My point is that those who fly that high KNOW they do and if they feel like they've lost even 10%...still playing 20% better than anyone else...for some of them, the thrill can be gone.

Just my .02.

Regards,
Jim
 
I hear ya bro !

jay helfert said:
No reason a player can't still be very strong until their late 50's or so. Case in point, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Jimmy Moore, Luther Lassiter, Boston Shorty, Johnny Ervolino, Cornbread, Jersey Red, Danny Diliberto, Ray Martin, Buddy Hall, Nick Varner, Wade Crane, Jim Rempe, Jose Parica and soon Efren and Hopkins. There are more but these are only a few examples of players who excelled well after age 50.

To answer your excellent question, I believe it is a lack of motivation (burn out) and an equally poor work ethic that causes older players to lose their edge. Pool, like Golf, takes constant practice to maintain sharpness. You simply cannot stay at the top playing an hour or two a week and trying to get in stroke a few days before a tournament.

I found it quite interesting that Earl was hitting balls and practicing AFTER he was eliminated in Phoenix last week. This is the "old" Earl who worked harder than anyone else. Only Varner (and Mark Tadd) would put in as many hours practicing during a tournament. I think Earl knows he is not quite as sharp as he used to be.

Watching him play last week, I saw that he still played good with flashes of his old form. But, and this is a big one, he just missed more balls than he used to. And after all, that is the name of the game. You must pocket ball after ball, and rarely miss to be a top player. I always tell people I'm working with, you MUST make the ball first. Everything else (like position) is secondary. If you miss, your turn is over. Pretty simple huh.

This minor difference is what now makes Earl merely a good player and no longer a great one. He can still execute all the shots he did before. If he can cut down on the missed balls, he can be a winner again.


You are pretty much right on, as usual Jay. Let me make a comparison of
some of our golfing greats. As Arnie and Jack moved into their 60's some pretty good observations were made by Jim Nance, Nick Price, and others.
Arnie and Jack still drove the ball 270 (or more) down the fairway, their approach shots were still finding the green, with great regularity. But as soon as they walked up on the green, they became a mass of quivering jelly. 4-6 footers, that used to be gimmies, became harder and harder to convert. From 20' they might 3 putt. Muscle memory and practice can only take you so far down the road. Good health will usually sustain the
true champions (Hale Irwin for example) well into their 60's, but few can
compete with the youngsters when it comes to nerves and a burning desire to win. I myself played some of my best pool from my late 50's to my mid 60's but father time soon caught up. It sucks too!
We had a little action after you left Phx. Gus B. tried to give RA 9-6 and Ronnie drilled him two sets for a dime. Then (2 days later) Scott gave him 10 to 5 AND the break and after 12 hrs. we had to throw in the towel. He gave it his best shot but his health eventually punched his ticket. Congrats to Scott, he played jam up against a tough game.

Dick
 
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Jason Robichaud said:
That is what I find strange about the pro players. I would like to know what happens to the pro's. I see people 30-70 playing and getting better. They are not at pro speed and never will, but their skill improves. I understand football, hockey, basketball... advantage to the younger guys, but pool?

Maybe if Jam knows a pro player, she could ask. Does pool start fun and then switch to something else. Does it start to feel like work? Does practice time drop?

I would love to know after watching my snooker idols, Davis and now Hendry, become mortal.

IMO, Pool starts out great fun and in my case it was big fun until the age of about 52, and something happened. It was not longer the fun it was. When I playede long wets, it taking longer to get over. Fatigue was more a factor than ever in my life, but I wasn't willing to put in time exercising to combat this.

It had become a source of making money and not the passion it once was. It was a job.
I actually became depressed about it because it had been my passion for so long and nothing replaced it. Ithought, what now, DIE? I got so depressed about the game that I didn't even want to talk about the game. I would talk the gambling talk and the old scores and so on, but not the game. The first one to notice this was the Hillbilly.

I was talking with Bakersfield Bobby years ago and asked him why his hands shook so badly and his reply was real simple, He replied, "kid, you do this for 25 years and see if you don't shake a little".

I was amused and even laughed a little at the time, but, NOW I UNDERSATAND WHAT HE MEANT. I feel badly for lauging.

I
 
SJDinPHX said:
You are pretty much right on, as usual Jay. Let me make a comparison of
some of our golfing greats. As Arnie and Jack moved into their 60's some pretty good observations were made by Jim Nance, Nick Price, and others.
Arnie and Jack still drove the ball 270 (or more) down the fairway, their approach shots were still finding the green, with great regularity. But as soon as they walked up on the green, they became a mass of quivering jelly. 4-6 footers, that used to be gimmies, became harder and harder to convert. From 20' they might 3 putt. Muscle memory and practice can only take you so far down the road. Good health will usually sustain the
true champions (Hale Irwin for example) well into their 60's, but few can
compete with the youngsters when it comes to nerves and a burning desire to win. I myself played some of my best pool from my late 50's to my mid 60's but father time soon caught up. It sucks too!!!

Dick

Considering the alternative, I hope you get a LOT older Dick. Notice how Tom Watson is "hot" on the Senior Tour again at age 58. He got a new putter and regained his putting stroke (and confidence). He always was as good as anyone from tee to green, but kept missing three and four footers.
 
Look again !

jay helfert said:
Considering the alternative, I hope you get a LOT older Dick. Notice how Tom Watson is "hot" on the Senior Tour again at age 58. He got a new putter and regained his putting stroke (and confidence). He always was as good as anyone from tee to green, but kept missing three and four footers.

Jay, re-read my edited post.

Dick
 
I think the reasons why you lose your top game as you get older are different for everybody. The one thing I know for sure is everyone that starts to slip, starts by not being able to come with the long shot anymore when they have to. Johnnyt
 
Jason Robichaud said:
...Maybe if Jam knows a pro player, she could ask. Does pool start fun and then switch to something else. Does it start to feel like work? Does practice time drop?....

I think everybody's situation is different, but I will throw out a few pool tidbits I have accumulated. :p

Desire is imperative for any sports competitor. It is important to remember that "Spanish Mike" LeBron was 54 years old when he won the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship. :)

Some players will always shine, after hitting millions and millions of balls in their lifetime. It is kind of like getting on a bicycle after you haven't ridden one in a long time. When Keith McCready came in third place in the 2003 U.S. Open, he hadn't hit a ball in over a month! :o

Anybody who knows me, especially my work associates, is well aware that I have always had a passion for pool, long before I met Keith McCready. When I did hook up with Keith and began to follow the American professional tournament trail, attending two, three, and four tournaments every single month, I was in pool heaven! :D

Going to the U.S. Open for the first time was like a kid going to Disneyland for me. I had a permanent smile on my face and enjoyed every single minute of that week-long event. :)

During this time, I spoke to Ronnie Allen on the telephone, a good friend of Keith's that I had never met. I asked him, "Ronnie, why aren't you at these pool tournaments? You should be here with the rest of the players. How could you have no passion for pool anymore?" Ronnie's response to me, "When you've been beaten up by pool the way I have, you lose your passion to play." :(

I did not understand that reply one bit and was extremely disappointed in Ronnie Allen at that juncture. However, fast-forward 7 years to today, I understand where he's coming from completely.

Keith McCready is full-blooded American pool legend. Every single event we have attended, people come up to speak to him, sometimes asking for a picture or an autograph. When he's in action or in competition, his table will always been crowded by onlookers because Keith's whole game is about connecting with the audience. He is a true entertainer at heart, and he can play pretty good, too! :D

The rewards for being a good pool player do not afford one to live a decent lifestyle. In order to play pool competitively in the States, you must have a sponsor, live at home with your parents, or have a girlfriend/wife like me who loves pool.

I understand only too well why Fabio got frustrated at SBE when he was playing Gabe Owen. I have driven hundreds and hundreds of miles myself to attend events with $500 entry fees, $1,000-plus hotel costs, travel costs, miscellaneous expenses, and loss of income for me being at events instead of at work, only to see Keith eliminated at the beginning of a tournament. Even when Keith came in first place, we were always stuck from the expenses of other tournaments we went to.

I won't even get into the occupational hazards of being a full-time pool player, but most of the ones I know do not eat properly, usually getting fast food because it is cheap. They sleep on the floor or in cars to save monies on hotel expenses. It is not unusual to see four and five players sharing one hotel room at pool tournaments, and then there is the substance abuse.

Can you just imagine what it was like for pool players to attend IPT events with a green room? Even if you came in dead last at an IPT event, the last-place monies covered the expenses. Never in the history of this sport have pool players been treated like professionals in this manner. Some have difficulty understanding why there are/were IPT supporters. Though the business plan was flawed because pool sucks in the United States, the players who did get a chance to attend had pride, some of them for the first time in many, many, many years. If you are a player by trade and have been one in these United States for decades, you'd get it.

I don't care if Keith never hits a ball again. I love the man, not the pool player. Pool will bankrupt your soul, if you let it.

JAM
 
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