Aim vs. Stroke error poll
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
For me, personally, definitely stroking error.
I think aiming, or proper alignment is far more crucial for actually potting balls.
Here is a thread where I discussed this and an experiement I tried a couple of years ago.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=26809
Unfortunately the image is now gone. It was a shot from near the baulk line to an OB about 2 diamonds from the corner pocket at 3/4 ball cut angle.
With balls replaced exacly on each shot, and a bridge set in place, I could replicate the shot with high accuracy even though my stroking position was uncomfortable, and even when I deliberately didn't stroke perfectly. Just hit about the center of the CB and the OB kept going in without touching a rail.
This shot is not extremely hard, but it is missable and hitting it in center pocket every time is very hard to do.
Colin
Here is a thread where I discussed this and an experiement I tried a couple of years ago.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=26809
Unfortunately the image is now gone. It was a shot from near the baulk line to an OB about 2 diamonds from the corner pocket at 3/4 ball cut angle.
With balls replaced exacly on each shot, and a bridge set in place, I could replicate the shot with high accuracy even though my stroking position was uncomfortable, and even when I deliberately didn't stroke perfectly. Just hit about the center of the CB and the OB kept going in without touching a rail.
This shot is not extremely hard, but it is missable and hitting it in center pocket every time is very hard to do.
Colin
dr_dave said:
I feel that if you think you miss more shots because of your aim than your stroke you haven't come to terms with the fact that your stroke isn't as repeatable as it needs to be.
If you think about it every shot you miss in a tourney or gambling you have probably made a thousand times, so why did you miss it. obviously you know how to aim it ,so your stroke failed you. A solid repeatable stroke under pressure is the perfect aiming system.
Another relevant question for those who have trouble with stroking is:
Do you stroke poorly on some shots due to poor mechanics / ability to stroke through a line?
Or do you stroke poorly more often due to second guessing, not trusting the line? Such as trying to swoop a little to make the shot go a little thicker or thinner.
Colin
Do you stroke poorly on some shots due to poor mechanics / ability to stroke through a line?
Or do you stroke poorly more often due to second guessing, not trusting the line? Such as trying to swoop a little to make the shot go a little thicker or thinner.
Colin
Aiming isn't a science, despite what some system users think. It involves many kinds of estimation:
- estimating where the OB contact point is by aligning it with the pocket, from a distance and an angle
- estimating how to adjust the OB contact point for throw
- estimating where the CB contact point is by imagining where it is on the "dark side" of the CB (this is part 1 of the subject of aiming systems)
- estimating how to align the CB and OB so the two contact points come together (this is part 2 of the subject of aiming systems)
- estimating how to position your head and eyes so all the above things are visualized correctly (this is part 2A of the subject of aiming systems)
This is only a partial list of the estimations required just for aiming (not stroking), and only for shots without sidespin (don't get me started).
Even with a perfect stroke aiming isn't a simple, mechanically repeatable process. It's probably impossible to really know how much of your pocketing problem is related to aim vs. stroke. I didn't vote in this poll, even though I think it's an interesting one, because I just don't know how to tell.
pj
chgo
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Colin Colenso said:
I personally think that proper alignment problems relate more to stroke problems, don't you?
To me, alignment means:
Where are your feet? Do you have an open or closed stance? Is your head directly over the cue or is your dominant eye?
You can aim perfectly but if your alignment is off then your stroke will surely suffer.
I've watched many state level players in our game that uses much smaller pockets. I can guarantee you that they don't know how to aim consistently. Sometimes they get their eyes in, other times they struggle. I can clearly see it has nothing to do with their stroke, as I can tell when I miss because of poor alignment when I make a perfectly straight stroke.just about a said:
This problem is harder to recognize on big pocket tables coz players are aiming at much wider targets.
Many players aim and pot better when they aren't thinking about it, but get them under the pressure tournament conditions and they often lose touch with their feel for the aim. They start trying to use their brains to line up with points, doing things they usually don't worry about when they are in the zone.
Colin
just about a...tap, tap, tap! What a perfect answer! :thumbup:
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
just about a said:
No I don't. When I align my bridge to a shot, I have no thought about my stroke. Though occasionally feathering, to see the line is a method I use. If you can't feather the cue along a straight line, that makes that type of alignment method more difficult.whitewolf said:
I know alignment is sometimes used to describe feet, body and head positions relative to the shot. I am using alignment in the sense of lining up to the aim point. The critical factor being the alignment of the bridge.
I don't find it too hard to stroke straight even if my body position is out of whack a bit, but I do find it hard to see the alignment if my head / eyes are in a different position relative to the aim line.
Also, I can struggle to get alignment and to see the aim line when my eyes are not warmed up, tired or haven't played for a while.
Colin
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I have missed due to poor aim
I have missed due to poor stroke
I have missed due to both at the same time.
All of the above are usually due to lazyness or rushing or nerves....usually "lazy rushingness" on my shot.
You know....right after you make those two or three difficult shots and get to the faily easy routine shot...
I have missed due to poor stroke
I have missed due to both at the same time.
All of the above are usually due to lazyness or rushing or nerves....usually "lazy rushingness" on my shot.
You know....right after you make those two or three difficult shots and get to the faily easy routine shot...
dr_dave said:
We teach it in pool school all the time...there are ONLY two ways to miss a shot...misalignment or mistroke! I've said this many times before. The huge majority of students who come to us with perceived 'aiming' problems, cannot deliver the cuestick accurately and repeatably through the CB. Once we correct those errors, aiming problems almost always go away.
All errors in pool come from one of three sources: Recognition, Alignment, or Delivery. In pool school, we first correct the delivery errors, to help the student create an accurate repeatable process, using their Personal Shooting Template. Then we help them to find the alignment position that best suits their body, and how they "see" the shot properly. Recognition comes after those two things have been corrected, and practiced, until they become an unconscious routine.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott,Scott Lee said:
I'd like to see you tackle some real difficult to aim shots on the snooker table and then see how well your stroke knocks them in.
IMHO, the biggest mistake I made in the first 20+ years of pool was assuming I had aimed correctly. And I think that is a mistake that most players will make their entire pool lives.
I did so many thousands of cueing drills in the mirror, with various equipment to ensure straightness, including a laser attached to my cue that I became very familiar with the straightness of my stroke. That did little to improve my aim.
That said, I aimed pretty good, but not as well as pro snooker players. And they too often miss due to incorrect aim on long and difficult shots.
Colin
Experienced v Beginners
I think beginners can actually soon see the aim lines nearly as well and sometimes even better than experienced players. So in their cases it makes sense to focus on the stroke.
Experienced players have developed a solid repeatable stroke, and hence aiming becomes a more important aspect of being able to play at higher levels.
There are obviously a lot of beginners who require training, and experienced players looking for advanced insights.
Just as there are Driving Instructors for learning to drive, there are also Nascar and F1 Driving Trainers.
What is relevant to beginners is not necessarily relevant to players trying to obtain elite levels of play.
Colin
I think beginners can actually soon see the aim lines nearly as well and sometimes even better than experienced players. So in their cases it makes sense to focus on the stroke.
Experienced players have developed a solid repeatable stroke, and hence aiming becomes a more important aspect of being able to play at higher levels.
There are obviously a lot of beginners who require training, and experienced players looking for advanced insights.
Just as there are Driving Instructors for learning to drive, there are also Nascar and F1 Driving Trainers.
What is relevant to beginners is not necessarily relevant to players trying to obtain elite levels of play.
Colin
Since you ask what we 'think' as opposed to what we 'know', I would say that I probably miss more moderately paced shots because of aiming errors, while more high speed shots from stroking problems.dr_dave said:
Before reading these forums, I never knew it was so difficult to get the cueball to go where you wanted it to go...now I'm all messed up about that too.
I think a lot of people wrongly attribute misses caused by an incorrect adjustment for squirt/swerve/throw to stroke - with perhaps throw being at the top of the list since it occurs in the absence of any applied english, and can vary considerably from shot to shot.
Jim
Colin...I'd be more than happy to. Please send 2 ROUNDTRIP airline tickets to down under (because, of course, my wife always travels with me)! Oh...first class, if you don't mind! I'll take care of the hotel accomdations! 
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Colin Colenso said:
haha, I promise I'd find the tightest table in Australia for youScott Lee said:Colin...I'd be more than happy to. Please send 2 ROUNDTRIP airline tickets to down under (because, of course, my wife always travels with me)! Oh...first class, if you don't mind! I'll take care of the hotel accomdations!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
I don't mean to seem grumpy or condescending, but I've put a lot of thought and testing into aiming v stroking and honestly believe it is a key issue in allowing players to get to an advanced potting accuracy. That is, by actually being able to work out why they missed particular shots and hence focus on improving the true fault.
It's a little irritating when such an idea gets dismissed very readily (I should be used to that
), but I thought about where you're coming from, re the needs of stroke development as a priority for newer players.I do hope you would consider my opinion from the point of view of players who have a pretty repeatable / accurate stroke.
Colin
Colin...That'd be just fine! Send the tickets!
I do consider your opinion, and from the point of an experienced professional instructor, I can tell you that in 35 years I have YET to see an accurate, repeatable stroke, among anyone but the top pros (who are mostly unconventional, but successful, due to longevity, persistance, and moving their cue the exact same way 100's of 1000's of times)! Of course, I've only seen tens of thousands of peoples' strokes personally, over my lifetime, as an instructor.
You can certainly practice bad habits long enough to make them successful for you (case in point: Allen Hopkins, Keith McCready, and Mike Davis...to name three top players, with very unconventional, but successful, ways of delivering their cue). I wouldn't want to try and teach any of their methods, but they certainly work well for THEM! What I'm talking about is the 50,000,000 other players, around the world, who don't have the time, energy, or stamina, to wait 20 years, for it to "kick in"! Our methods have helped countless pros and expert players, as well as beginners, to achieve a more accurate and repeatable stroke...which is the cornerstone to fast, permanent improvement of your overall game.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
I do consider your opinion, and from the point of an experienced professional instructor, I can tell you that in 35 years I have YET to see an accurate, repeatable stroke, among anyone but the top pros (who are mostly unconventional, but successful, due to longevity, persistance, and moving their cue the exact same way 100's of 1000's of times)! Of course, I've only seen tens of thousands of peoples' strokes personally, over my lifetime, as an instructor.
You can certainly practice bad habits long enough to make them successful for you (case in point: Allen Hopkins, Keith McCready, and Mike Davis...to name three top players, with very unconventional, but successful, ways of delivering their cue). I wouldn't want to try and teach any of their methods, but they certainly work well for THEM! What I'm talking about is the 50,000,000 other players, around the world, who don't have the time, energy, or stamina, to wait 20 years, for it to "kick in"! Our methods have helped countless pros and expert players, as well as beginners, to achieve a more accurate and repeatable stroke...which is the cornerstone to fast, permanent improvement of your overall game.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Colin Colenso said:haha, I promise I'd find the tightest table in Australia for you
I do hope you would consider my opinion from the point of view of players who have a pretty repeatable / accurate stroke.
Colin
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I think I miss for both reasons in addition to misalignment, but mainly because of aim.
But there's another thing that has to be considered. Visualizing the Ghost Ball (or a spot on the cloth where it would rest) and keeping your gaze on its center is the only way you can actually stroke directly to the point on which you're focused. All other methods force you to stroke away from your gaze.
So complications have to arise with all other methods, because you essentially must split yourself into three machines -- the aimer, the stroker, and the coordinator.
Edit: Actually if you can visualize a point on the object ball for cuts 30 degrees or so and under or just beyond, you can stroke right at them as well.
But there's another thing that has to be considered. Visualizing the Ghost Ball (or a spot on the cloth where it would rest) and keeping your gaze on its center is the only way you can actually stroke directly to the point on which you're focused. All other methods force you to stroke away from your gaze.
So complications have to arise with all other methods, because you essentially must split yourself into three machines -- the aimer, the stroker, and the coordinator.
Edit: Actually if you can visualize a point on the object ball for cuts 30 degrees or so and under or just beyond, you can stroke right at them as well.
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