Aiming and Visualization

D

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
I couldn't reply in the other thread since I'm no pro.

There are several aiming systems for rifle aiming.

The most common are open sights and there are a wide range of these types.

Then there are the type on the Quigley Down Under Rifle.

Then there are scopes and there are a wide range of these also.

Then there is the laser sight.

And then there is this http://www.cheytac.com/index.php

If you seen the Jackal with Bruce Willis, you seen the a really cool aiming system. I haven't looked at a mini van the same since that movie.

Each one takes a different approach/style to aim even though the goal is the same, hit what you want. No aiming system can tell a shooter when the shot feels right. It is up to the shooter to know when the shot feels right.

These systems provide data by using real world information for the shooter to use to visualize the shoot. In the case of open sights, the rear sight, front sight and target provide points to line up, IE visual data to use.

In pool, there are no sights of any kind to use as data like the open sights. The only real aiming system is Ghost Ball aiming , which is not the same as Ghost ball visualization.

Ghost ball aiming is understanding the geometry of a shot based on a ghost ball at the OB and how the changes from a center pocket hit affects where the OB goes.

In pool, it's really visualization methods not aiming systems that is being used. You have to visualize everything for a shot. Unlike open sights on a rifle where you have real world sights to use, you have to visualize whatever you use for shot making in pool.

Unlike shooting a rifle where the bullet stops(normally), you have to visualize where the CB is going after hitting the OB. You have to visualize where you want the CB to stop on the table.

But like making a rifle shot, you have to know when the shot feels right in order to take it. Knowing when to take the shot is how one expresses themselves in pool.

The better at visualizing you are, the better you are at expressing your will, desires, creativity through shot making. The pool balls are waiting for you. They are nothing until a person express themselves with their use.

But, hey,I'm a no name banger and as such really do not have the capability to have my own beliefs about pool and therefore have nothing of value to add.
 
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Duck-

I think the breakdown is your posting style of making "absolute" statements that simply aren't true. Statements like "the only real aiming system is ghost ball" being made in a matter-of-fact way is why many launch at your every post.

The thing is, in every one of your posted pictures, many of us can make every one of those shots with a slew of methods/systems outside of ghost ball. That's why your credibility is lacking and why you take heat.

If you soften your posting style and say, "From my experience, I've found that ghost ball works the best and here's why.....and I've found with (THIS ALTERNATIVE STYLE) it doesn't work and here's why" instead of ram-rodding absolute statements that aren't true and posting photo examples that don't prove your case, you'll do a lot better. We can also examine what it is you're doing wrong and then we can have a fruitful discussion.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Duck-

I think the breakdown is your posting style of making "absolute" statements that simply aren't true. Statements like "the only real aiming system is ghost ball" being made in a matter-of-fact way is why many launch at your every post.

The thing is, in every one of your posted pictures, many of us can make every one of those shots with a slew of methods/systems outside of ghost ball. That's why your credibility is lacking and why you take heat.

If you soften your posting style and say, "From my experience, I've found that ghost ball works the best and here's why.....and I've found with (THIS ALTERNATIVE STYLE) it doesn't work and here's why" instead of ram-rodding absolute statements that aren't true and posting photo examples that don't prove your case, you'll do a lot better. We can also examine what it is you're doing wrong and then we can have a fruitful discussion.
Click to expand...

Wow.

Wonderful response.
 
There are aiming systems that bump your game up, when a pro starts talking about how he aims, watch the other pros around him, such as JA when SVB was describing how he does it, notice how interested he was on that excellent TAR interview, JA is a pretty smart dude. And if you think all these guys just aim by feel, that London Bridge is still for sale in Arizona. Francisco was the funniest, I just shoot it, sure he does. These guys are never going to put all the things they have figured out, out there, for their competition to pick up and use against them, tournament money is just too tight, and who would blame them.
 
Shooting pool is just like shooting a gun...........

Only it's backwards.

When you line up a shot with the gun you put your eye in line with the back sight and the front sight.

These 3 positions will never change. If they do you will miss the shot.

The only thing that changes is the target.

When we aim a pool shot. The pocket stays the same, the object ball stays the same and the cue ball stays the same.

These 3 positions all stay the same for that shot.

The only thing that changes is your dominant eye. Your dominant eye becomes the target. This is the only thing that you can change with that shot. This is the only thing your can move.

If the dominant eye is not there on a pool shot you will miss. Just like you would with the gun if your eye is not in the right position.

Unless you get lucky..........

Think about it? It's true...........
 
genomachino said:
Only it's backwards.

When you line up a shot with the gun you put your eye in line with the back sight and the front sight.

These 3 positions will never change. If they do you will miss the shot.

The only thing that changes is the target.

When we aim a pool shot. The pocket stays the same, the object ball stays the same and the cue ball stays the same.

These 3 positions all stay the same for that shot.

The only thing that changes is your dominant eye. Your dominant eye becomes the target. This is the only thing that you can change with that shot. This is the only thing your can move.

If the dominant eye is not there on a pool shot you will miss. Just like you would with the gun if your eye is not in the right position.

Unless you get lucky..........

Think about it? It's true...........
Click to expand...

Sorry, Gene, but I just don't follow your line of thinking. I know you have a lot more knowledge about aiming than I, but please consider this:

I'm no expert on rifles, but it seems that the rifle's front sight could be equated to the pool player's bridge hand, while the rear sight could be equated to the grip hand, and the dominant eye would play the same role in both scenarios. The only real difference between the two - and a big problem, as I see it - is that in pool, the grip hand (rear sight) is behind the dominant eye where it makes it very difficult to know when you've got it in line with the bridge hand (front sight) and the dominant eye.

Roger
 
Roger Long said:
Sorry, Gene, but I just don't follow your line of thinking. I know you have a lot more knowledge about aiming than I, but please consider this:

I'm no expert on rifles, but it seems that the rifle's front sight could be equated to the pool player's bridge hand, while the rear sight could be equated to the grip hand, and the dominant eye would play the same role in both scenarios. The only real difference between the two - and a big problem, as I see it - is that in pool, the grip hand (rear sight) is behind the dominant eye where it makes it very difficult to know when you've got it in line with the bridge hand (front sight) and the dominant eye.

Roger
Click to expand...

Not to sound like a great authority on aiming. But I do agree with Roger.

The dominent eye lines up the "V" in the grip hand (rear sight) (this is what helps to adjust your stance) and the bridge hand (front sight) comes down (along with the domentent eye) into the line of the shot.

A person just needs to learn to point the "V" of the grip hand down the line of the shot as the eye sees it. Its not that hard to do.

What you may probably think of is bowling. A bowler has a spot on his grip hand that is guiding the ball down the intended path as his eye sees it.

John
 
The dominant eye is the target............

When we are in the preshot is where we all start our aiming. By having the dominant eye in the correct position we can start out the aiming process in line.

This is where we have to start with the dominant eye in the correct position or we can't even put a foot or hand in the most correct position. We can get it close but close isn't as good as it gets.

And John, I will stop the next time I go through St Louis for sure.

It's hard to explain this properly with words on the forum here.

I've been teaching this for 2 years but it's not on the old video.

The new one will be easy to understand everything.

You have to have the same Retinal Field of view in the preshot that you do when your down on the shot or the target isn't as lined up as it should be.

Nobody has ever taught what I teach and there has been alot of controversy but for the players that I have been teaching this to for the past 2 years there is no doubt.

It works.

I understand why people don't understand it. Nobody ever figured it out.

Never is a long time until now.
 
duckie said:
I couldn't reply in the other thread since I'm no pro.

In pool, there are no sights of any kind to use as data like the open sights. The only real aiming system is Ghost Ball aiming , which is not the same as Ghost ball visualization.

But, hey,I'm a no name banger and as such really do not have the capability to have my own beliefs about pool and therefore have nothing of value to add.
Click to expand...

duckie:

Aren't you being a little rough on yourself? I'm no pro either, but I didn't let that stop me from posting in that other thread. And do you really believe that you are a "no name banger," or are you just being sarcastic because other people might be trying to make you feel like you're one? And what makes you think you have nothing of value to add? You have always followed the forum rules and have always shown patience and a warranted measure of respect toward the other posters. I might not always agree with you - especially when you make statements like, "the only real aiming system is Ghost Ball aiming" - but even then, one of us is missing something, so we now have more that we can discuss. :thumbup:

So hang in there, duckie. I, for one, value your input.

Roger
 
genomachino said:
When we are in the preshot is where we all start our aiming. By having the dominant eye in the correct position we can start out the aiming process in line.

This is where we have to start with the dominant eye in the correct position or we can't even put a foot or hand in the most correct position. We can get it close but close isn't as good as it gets.

And John, I will stop the next time I go through St Louis for sure.

It's hard to explain this properly with words on the forum here.

I've been teaching this for 2 years but it's not on the old video.

The new one will be easy to understand everything.

You have to have the same Retinal Field of view in the preshot that you do when your down on the shot or the target isn't as lined up as it should be.

Nobody has ever taught what I teach and there has been alot of controversy but for the players that I have been teaching this to for the past 2 years there is no doubt.

It works.

I understand why people don't understand it. Nobody ever figured it out.

Never is a long time until now.
Click to expand...

Gene:

When we are all in the habit of thinking of the "target" as being the pocket, or the object ball contact point, or the cue ball resting spot (as in Target Pool), it really does throw in a bit of confusion to now start refering to the dominant eye as the target; but I do think I'm beginning to understand what you're saying here.

Roger
 
I kind of figured you would.......

Roger Long said:
Gene:

When we are all in the habit of thinking of the "target" as being the pocket, or the object ball contact point, or the cue ball resting spot (as in Target Pool), it really does throw in a bit of confusion to now start refering to the dominant eye as the target; but I do think I'm beginning to understand what you're saying here.

Roger
Click to expand...

The pocket and the object ball are the sights on the gun. they don't change.

The cue ball is just an extension of the stick.

The dominant eye(target) is the only thing we can adjust in the equation.

Once we get that in the correct position the next trick is keeping it Perfect all the way down. Start Perfect and stay Perfect.

This is the first part of Perfect Aim.

Many pro players or top players do a version of this to a certain extent. Many of them don't even know what they do. They just do it.

I can't wait to get this video done and get the whole Perfect Aim picture in focus for everyone.

Once a person learns the whole thing they will be teaching this to everyone.

It's just the way it is. And this is not the best part by far.

Thanks for the open mind.
 
Roger Long said:
Sorry, Gene, but I just don't follow your line of thinking. I know you have a lot more knowledge about aiming than I, but please consider this:

I'm no expert on rifles, but it seems that the rifle's front sight could be equated to the pool player's bridge hand, while the rear sight could be equated to the grip hand, and the dominant eye would play the same role in both scenarios. The only real difference between the two - and a big problem, as I see it - is that in pool, the grip hand (rear sight) is behind the dominant eye where it makes it very difficult to know when you've got it in line with the bridge hand (front sight) and the dominant eye.

Roger
Click to expand...
The rear sight is behind you when you are bent over to shoot. It is unusable.
All you can see is the target object ball,front sight(cue tip and cue ball) and a bit of shaft. You don't have enough of it to determine exactly where you are aimed. At least in my case this is true. Somewhere along the process of getting into my shooting position, my aim goes elsewhere.
 
Duckie,

As a few other posters have pointed out, the biggest problem is your posting style.

An example of one of your posts was your first response to Gordy's Strike Line Aiming Thread,

"Just another gimmick."

You know nothing abiout the product, or how it is used but you are ready to say this to the world? You could have taken the chance to ask, how this is different from the aiming tool I use (the arrow) and conduct a resonable discussion of the merits of both, but you choose to slam the door. Do that enough, and you will find others slammig the door on you.

In one of your most recent posts, you talk about a very important factor (table time and practice) NO ONE I know disputs this, however I have no clue why you decided to tell us the story of your experiences wiping your bum with your left hand. You COULD have used ANY other example than this.... Like for example "in the real world of pool' (you like that statement a lot) I had a shot that I could not reach well right handed so I tried to shoot the shot with my opposite hand, guess what I found out, I knew what I had to do but, I could not make a bridge ....... etc etc etc.

Your posts come off as very arrogant and authoratiative. It appears from your posts, that you feel that if someone else has not put in the amount of table time that you have over the past year, they don't know anything. You have alluded to this when you stated "I don't care about how many years you have been playing."

I find that offensive, as I am sure many others do. Very few of us have the luxary of time to devote 5 hours a day every day to pool. For many of us, life gets in the way of our passion.

In closing, take this resource as a way to discuss new things for consideration in applying them to your game. The collective power of knowledge will always trump an individuals.

p.s. everything Dave stated I agree with too.
 
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Tony_in_MD said:
Duckie,

As a few other posters have pointed out, the biggest problem is your posting style.

An example of one of your posts was your first response to Gordy's Strike Line Aiming Thread,

"Just another gimmick."

You know nothing abiout the product, or how it is used but you are ready to say this to the world? You could have taken the chance to ask, how this is different from the aiming tool I use (the arrow) and conduct a resonable discussion of the merits of both, but you choose to slam the door. Do that enough, and you will find others slammig the door on you.

In one of your most recent posts, you talk about a very important factor (table time and practice) NO ONE I know disputs this, however I have no clue why you decided to tell us the story of your experiences wiping your bum with your left hand. You COULD have used ANY other example than this.... Like for example "in the real world of pool' (you like that statement a lot) I had a shot that I could not reach well right handed so I tried to shoot the shot with my opposite hand, guess what I found out, I knew what I had to do but, I could not make a bridge ....... etc etc etc.

Your posts come off as very arrogant and authoratiative. It appears from your posts, that you feel that if someone else has not put in the amount of table time that you have over the past year, they don't know anything. You have alluded to this when you stated "I don't care about how many years you have been playing."

I find that offensive, as I am sure many others do. Very few of us have the luxary of time to devote 5 hours a day every day to pool. For many of us, life gets in the way of our passion.

In closing, take this resource as a way to discuss new things for consideration in applying them to your game. The collective power of knowledge will always trump an individuals.

p.s. everything Dave stated I agree with too.
Click to expand...

Duckie is clearly passionate and that's a good thing. I think once he opens his mind and begins to understand some other techniques thoroughly, he might end up being the authoritative poster he tries to be now, but with solid info.

I wanna see Duck get born-again-hard, just like Pvt. Pile.

"This is my aiming arrow. There are many like it but this one is mine..."
 
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Roger Long said:
Gene:

When we are all in the habit of thinking of the "target" as being the pocket, or the object ball contact point, or the cue ball resting spot (as in Target Pool), it really does throw in a bit of confusion to now start refering to the dominant eye as the target; but I do think I'm beginning to understand what you're saying here.

Roger
Click to expand...

CJ says the true target is the CB -- and I've always agreed w/ that. Gene takes that a step further to say the true target is your eyes, because you need proper eye placement to see the correct 180deg view of the CB to hit the correct vector through the core.

Both are right. I think once people stop seeing the OB or pocket as the target (they're used to acquire the target), they can really improve. I know I did.

The transition from standing to set position and not losing either targets (vector between standing eye placement and center of the 180-deg view of CB) is the key. When I play bad--- this is where I dog it.

Hope that makes sense, Roger.
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
CJ says the true target is the CB -- and I've always agreed w/ that. Gene takes that a step further to say the true target is your eyes, because you need proper eye placement to see the correct 180deg view of the CB to hit the correct vector through the core.

Both are right. I think once people stop seeing the OB or pocket as the target (they're used to acquire the target), they can really improve. I know I did.

The transition from standing to set position and not losing either targets (vector between standing eye placement and center of the 180-deg view of CB) is the key. When I play bad--- this is where I dog it.

Hope that makes sense, Roger.
Click to expand...

Yes, that makes perfect sense (at least, to me it does). Thank you.

Roger
 
duckie said:
But, hey,I'm a no name banger and as such really do not have the capability to have my own beliefs about pool and therefore have nothing of value to add.
Click to expand...

I think that Duckie's closing comment is worth commenting upon as it does show how posters' being repeatedly ridiculed and intimidated can take a toll not only upon the poster but also, more subtly, on other people reading it too.

While I agree with some other people that Duckie's posting style could be improved upon, we also need to consider that the people commenting upon Duckie's postings could likewise also improve upon their posting style.

We're all human beings and we all have something of value to add to the forums.
 
There is no doubt that many of us can improve on our posting style, you included.

Tell me did your interactions with John Barton lead you to this epiphany that we all have something of value to add to this form or did you have that opinion before and chose not to follow it?


PoolSharkAllen said:
I think that Duckie's closing comment is worth commenting upon as it does show how posters' being repeatedly ridiculed and intimidated can take a toll not only upon the poster but also, more subtly, on other people reading it too.

While I agree with some other people that Duckie's posting style could be improved upon, we also need to consider that the people commenting upon Duckie's postings could likewise also improve upon their posting style.

We're all human beings and we all have something of value to add to the forums.
Click to expand...
 
SpiderWebComm said:
CJ says the true target is the CB -- and I've always agreed w/ that. Gene takes that a step further to say the true target is your eyes, because you need proper eye placement to see the correct 180deg view of the CB to hit the correct vector through the core.

Both are right. I think once people stop seeing the OB or pocket as the target (they're used to acquire the target), they can really improve. I know I did.

The transition from standing to set position and not losing either targets (vector between standing eye placement and center of the 180-deg view of CB) is the key. When I play bad--- this is where I dog it.

Hope that makes sense, Roger.
Click to expand...


"Applause"
:thumbup:
 
Tony_in_MD said:
Tell me did your interactions with John Barton lead you to this epiphany that we all have something of value to add to this form
Click to expand...

All of us do have something to add but the caveat is provided that we play by the rules of the forum. JB didn't play by the rules - 'nuff said.
 
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