Aiming at "Center Pocket"

Do you need to know precisely where center pocket is in order to aim center pocket?

  • Nope. All you need is the general location, but precise locations of OB/CB.

    Votes: 37 39.4%

  • Of course. Anything else defies logic.

    Votes: 57 60.6%
  • Total voters
    94
Mike...I have to respectfully disagree. Adding the CB adds a tremendous amount of complexity to the shot...the first of which is contacting the OB in the correct place to go to the pocket (we call this the exit angle to the pocket...which is all you need to know). The pockets on pool tables have not changed locations in 400 years, and aren't expected to anytime soon. Therefore, with a rudimentary knowledge of CTE (and an accurate & repeatable stroke process), all you need to know is the exit angle, and how to get the CB to that point on the OB. That's why Dave could cover up much of the table, and still pocket balls. Naturally there are some minor adjustments that need to be made on some cuts. Nobody has ever disputed that...it's how the 'adjustments' are made that is in some dispute. The endless arguement of being able to physically "prove" something like CTE will be debated forever. If CTE works for you, use it...if not, use whatever works best for you! Looking forward to seeing you in Vegas in May! :grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

mikepage said:
Complicating the task by adding the cueball doesn't somehow change this.
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mikepage said:
OK

Let's simplify the question first. Imagine the object ball was the only ball on the table and you were allowed to strike the object ball with the stick --hit it right in the hole.

Now, do you have to know where the center of the hole is to be able to do this? Think about this.

The answer is yes. You don't need to know how far away it is but you DO need to know what direction it is.

Complicating the task by adding the cueball doesn't somehow change this.
Click to expand...
The hole's existence is independent of your knowledge of it.
 
I guess the answer is, it depends what you call "Center Pocket"?

I think when a player plays by the tangent line, he need to determine what the center of his pocket is. eg. Thick, Thin, produces different tangent line for the cue ball to follow so his center to the pocket will change and this is an adjustment that needs to be made to his aim (all systems).

However, if you use center pocket literally as the exact split of the pocket without consideration of the object ball than the answer would be "NO" because there are some shots where you can't aim at "center pocket" to make the ball. However, most aiming techniques will make the ball regardless of the "Center Pocket" because most systems you use automate where the aim at center should be to make the shot. This is the real benefit of most aiming systems, you don't have to know how it gets to the pocket but if you follow the system that object ball aim is automated to make the ball. Adjustment to any systems is required if you want to hit the right or left of the natural aim.

Basically, we talking about cheating the pocket to product different lines when object ball position allow for it. Most aiming techniques can easily compensate for this when those extra lines are available. Eg. ball in front of the pocket (if you have to use a system here..well...you're probably beyond help).:)

Regards,
Duc.
 
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Mike...Let's be careful here. Randy and I are both "sane" individuals. We just happen to have a difference of opinion...which may be nothing more than sematics, to a degree. Please let's not let this thread degrade into name calling...like most of the CTE/aiming threads.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

mikepage said:
The answer is so obviously yes that any sane person who answers no must not understand the question.
Click to expand...
 
You have to have SOME reference point that directs to the pocket...

Scott Lee said:
Mike...I have to respectfully disagree. Adding the CB adds a tremendous amount of complexity to the shot...the first of which is contacting the OB in the correct place to go to the pocket (we call this the exit angle to the pocket...which is all you need to know). The pockets on pool tables have not changed locations in 400 years, and aren't expected to anytime soon. Therefore, with a rudimentary knowledge of CTE (and an accurate & repeatable stroke process), all you need to know is the exit angle, and how to get the CB to that point on the OB. That's why Dave could cover up much of the table, and still pocket balls. Naturally there are some minor adjustments that need to be made on some cuts. Nobody has ever disputed that...it's how the 'adjustments' are made that is in some dispute. The endless arguement of being able to physically "prove" something like CTE will be debated forever. If CTE works for you, use it...if not, use whatever works best for you! Looking forward to seeing you in Vegas in May! :grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...


You have to have some type of reference point that locates the pocket, whether that be the knowledge that you are dealing with a planar surface with a 1:2 ratio and the OB is on x,y coordinates on that playing surface etc... You still have to have SOME reference point that can lead you to the precise location of the desired result.

Jaden

p.s. the way the first answer is worded then both answers are correct. Because if you know the precise locations of the OB/CB, then you know where the pockets are because you have a defined playing surface of 1:2 with exact locations of pockets in each corner and splitting the middle of the playing surface, so you would know where the pockets are with an exact location of the cb ob on the playing surface. Independent of an exact location on the playing surface you would need to know the location of the desired result.

So at the VERY LEAST, you would need to know distance from one rail, and the distance from one pocket, or distance from two rails. In other words, you need x,y coordinates. Which would mean you know the exact location of the pocket.

So is it just a question of semantics? Maybe, but you have to have additional information than the locations of the CB and OB.
 
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Jaden said:
You have to have some type of reference point that locates the pocket, whether that be the knowledge that you are dealing with a planar surface with a 1:2 ratio and the OB is on x,y coordinates on that playing surface etc... You still have to have SOME reference point that can lead you to the precise location of the desired result.

Jaden

p.s. the way the first answer is worded then both answers are correct. Because if you know the precise locations of the OB/CB, then you know where the pockets are because you have a defined playing surface of 1:2 with exact locations of pockets in each corner and splitting the middle of the playing surface, so you would know where the pockets are with an exact location of the cb ob on the playing surface. Independent of an exact location on the playing surface you would need to know the location of the desired result.
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Pocketing balls is not heavily dependent on the precise location of the center of the pocket. It would make sense however, if the object ball has little area to strike, like the end of the rail, because there is more area that will reject the ball.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Because "without looking at the pocket" does not mean "without knowledge of where the pocket is" (which means you don't understand the question and may be sane).


As you were told then (but still don't understand), that did not show that you had no knowledge of where the pockets were. In fact, some posters (including me) pointed out that there was plenty of pocket position information available to your eyes, and even suggested ways of setting it up so it would be a real test - none of which you tried.

So it's definitely a testable question, but you definitely did not test it.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

You and Mike both misread the original question. The question was, "Do you need to know PRECISELY where the center of the pocket is in order to hit it?" He didn't not say, "Do you need a general idea of where the pocket was, approximately?"

Suggest a test, get out of your basement, we'll meet up and figure out who's right Professor Johnson :)

I think if we tested tolerance to the center of the pocket (who has the smallest average deviation to center pocket) on truly blind shots (pocket region is covered and you're NOT allowed to move from behind the CB (you must stand in a small box) to check out the "contact point," you'd have a really, really, really rough time keeping up.

Run a test like that on a 3C table to measure accurately.

In fact, I'm trying to come out to Vegas in May. We'll get all of the math guys and instructors together and we'll setup a test. I'll buy the first round and it'll be fun. We'll all throw in $20 for fun that would go to the guy with the smallest deviation from center pocket. That way, the winner can buy himself a Ruth's filet or drink for free for the rest of the week.
 
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That depends on the table.

fabfastfredyy said:
Pocketing balls is not heavily dependent on the precise location of the center of the pocket. It would make sense however, if the object ball has little area to strike, like the end of the rail, because there is more area that will reject the ball.
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The tighter the pockets, the less margin of error and the more precisely you must know where the center of the pocket is; however, center of the pocket is a misnomer.

If you aim every ball at the center of the pocket, you will miss some shots.

Also, the question was do you need to know where the center of the pocket is to make the ball in the CENTER of the pocket, not to make the ball period.

On a Standard cut gold crown, you can make the ball hit at medium speed being off anywhere from 2-5 degrees depending on the distance of the shot. Actually much more than that for really close shots.

Jaden
 
fabfastfredyy said:
The hole's existence is independent of your knowledge of it.
Click to expand...
The hole's location is independent of the CB and OB.

How does the CB and OB give me any information at all on the pocket's whereabouts? Do they talk to each other and by learning the right aiming system, you'll be able to develop a sixth sense capable of hearing their conversation?

OB: Hey CB, what's up?

CB: Not bad, and you? Howz the family doing?

OB: We're doing okay, but number one has been looking a bit pale lately.

CB: Bummer.

OB: And yourself? Looks like you still have the measles.

CB: Yeah, but I feel great. Anyway, have you seen the side pocket anywhere? The shooter wants to put you there.

OB: Sure, it's right over there. Just tell him to place his bridge hand there, and pivot this way, and it'll all work out.

CB: Okay, I'll pass the message. Have fun in the pocket.

OB: Thanks, catch ya later.
 
This is ridiculous.

SpiderWebComm said:
You and Mike both misread the original question. The question was, "Do you need to know PRECISELY where the center of the pocket is in order to hit it?" He didn't not say, "Do you need a general idea of where the pocket was, approximately?"

Suggest a test, get out of your basement, we'll meet up and figure out who's right Professor Johnson :)

I think if we tested tolerance to the center of the pocket (who has the smallest average deviation to center pocket) on truly blind shots (pocket region is covered and you're NOT allowed to move from behind the CB (you must stand in a small box) to check out the "contact point," you'd have a really, really, really rough time keeping up.

Run a test like that on a 3C table to measure accurately.

In fact, I'm trying to come out to Vegas in May. We'll get all of the math guys and instructors together and we'll setup a test. I'll buy the first round and it'll be fun. We'll all throw in $20 for fun that would go to the guy with the smallest deviation from center pocket. That way, the winner can buy himself a Ruth's filet or drink for free for the rest of the week.
Click to expand...

A physical test proves nothing unless you can prove that you don't know where the precise center of the pocket is.
I understand that CTE works for you. I actually developed a system that works that I can't logically explain too, so use it, but how it works is still up for debate and whether or not it works as described is DEFINITELY up for debate.


Jaden
 
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jsp said:
The hole's location is independent of the CB and OB.

How does the CB and OB give me any information at all on the pocket's whereabouts? Do they talk to each other and by learning the right aiming system, you'll be able to develop a sixth sense capable of hearing their conversation?

OB: Hey CB, what's up?

CB: Not bad, and you? Howz the family doing?

OB: We're doing okay, but number one has been looking a bit pale lately.

CB: Bummer.

OB: And yourself? Looks like you still have the measles.

CB: Yeah, but I feel great. Anyway, have you seen the side pocket anywhere? The shooter wants to put you there.

OB: Sure, it's right over there. Just tell him to place his bridge hand there, and pivot this way, and it'll all work out.

CB: Okay, I'll pass the message. Have fun in the pocket.

OB: Thanks, catch ya later.
Click to expand...

Funny, that's basically what happens. As long as I know the cb/ob relationship and my location at the table (coming into the CB from the rail), that's all the data I need.
 
Jaden said:
A physical test proves nothing unless you can prove that you don't know where the precise center of the pocket is.

Jaden
Click to expand...

NOBODY knows the PRECISE location of center pocket. It's always an estimated guess (even when you're LOOKING at the pocket, let alone shooting a blind shot).

Therefore, on blind shots, there has to be something "extra" to help you hit center-hole-joel every time. Intuition won't get you there on all shots.
 
yes and that gives you the precise location of the pocket...

SpiderWebComm said:
Funny, that's basically what happens. As long as I know the cb/ob relationship and my location at the table (coming into the CB from the rail), that's all the data I need.
Click to expand...

If you know where on the table the CB and OB are in relation to two fixed points, then you know the precise location of the objective pocket.

Jaden
 
Jaden said:
If you know where on the table the CB and OB are in relation to two fixed points, then you know the precise location of the objective pocket.

Jaden
Click to expand...

No, you know the direction of the pocket - generally speaking. You don't know the PRECISE location. I can prove that by handing you a laser level and telling you to align it to center hole with everything blinded. You'll never be exact (i.e. precise).
 
fabfastfredyy said:
If I point straight into the sky, I could be pointing at the moon or the sun, and tell you one or the other, and still be correct.
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So you're saying you live someplace where our laws of nature don't apply. If you're ever in our corner of the universe, we can discuss the way things are here.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
It seems pretty obvious that you can't point at something if you don't know where it is. So when you make the extraordinary claim that a system can point an OB at a pocket without knowing where the pocket is, I think it's your responsibility to clue us in on how that's possible, not our responsibility to explain the obvious to you.

pj
chgo
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The OP said THE CENTER OF THE POCKET. On many cuts I will line up to aim at one side of pocket or the other whichever will give me the thickest cut on the object ball.( or thinnest cut if I'm trying to avoid a scratch , etc.) On those shots I couldn't give a rat's ass where the center of the pocket is.:bash:
 
jsp said:
The hole's location is independent of the CB and OB.

How does the CB and OB give me any information at all on the pocket's whereabouts? Do they talk to each other and by learning the right aiming system, you'll be able to develop a sixth sense capable of hearing their conversation? [/I]
Click to expand...

No they certainly dont by themselves. I have these methods in my book which is what Natural methods are about. Somehow something has to speak to you to give you a clue to what is going on, sure alignment and all that is a part of it but having a defined clue making system is exactly what the doctor ordered especially for those people who are not blessed with that 6th sense you speak of.

Robin Kelly

336robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

http://274928807619529663.weebly.com/
 
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