Aiming Systems...my take !!!

[SJDinPHX]

Dick,

Thanks for the mention of Don Cherry. He seems like an incredibly talented and gifted person who has lived a very successful life built on those talents.

http://www.doncherry.us/biography.html

JB,

Thanks for acknowledging Don Cherry. I am fortunate to call him a personal friend.
I wish I could answer all your questions about the mysteries of pool, but alas, I cannot. I happen to be self-taught. I know I may come across as an opinionated SOB most of the time. But I assure you that is only a product of my life in the netherland of poolrooms and bars.
As I approach senility (or God forbid, alzheimers) I only have one wish. That is to see cuesports elevated to the level of respectability and stature that I feel, as a skill, it deserves
I hope all people who love the game, as I have, reach their maximum potential by whatever means are available to them. Whether it be by aiming systems, lessons, self taught, whatever.
Its a great thing to have in your life. Always challenging, but when you get it right, its very rewarding.
Thanks for everybodys response, G'night all.:boring2: :boring2: :boring2:

Dick

 

[gunzby]

yes, this is truly what it is all about in my opinion. When I was learning the aiming system I try to use now when I'm in trouble the particular steps in the method simply were not clicking with me. As soon as I understood the concept, I had to apply my own step in the aiming method that made it click for me... it was a simple adjustment in the method which uses the same exact principles and concepts, just a little tweak that made me click. I couldn't make a damn ball for 2 hours using my coaches system, but when I tweaked it for my own mind I couldn't miss.

Anything you are taught in this game absolutely has to click, and it has to click on a repeatable basis to where it becomes second nature and you can build on that foundation. I've found in my progression that that is what it truly takes to keep improving. Learn something new, then repeat it so many times that you don't have to think about it, repeat it some more, then learn something new... repeat.

The best example I can give concerns my job. I make T&D coaxial cable (last mile). This stuff is traversed onto a reel by hand. When I used to train people I would tell them that I can tell you everything you need to know about this in about 2 hours. After I do that it will take you anywhere from one to 2 months of doing this 12 hours a day to figure out how you're going to do it. They usually get extremely frustrated because no one else is screwing up until I tell them that those people have been doing it anywhere from 5 to 20 years.

When a coach shows you an aiming system it is the one that works for him/her. It may work for you too, but most likely you will have to tweak it like you said to make it yours.

 

[Fast Lenny]

Neil,

Thanks for responding on my credentials as an instructor. I do not teach basic pool principles. I only teach one pocket strategy. I lack the patience to teach "aiming systems" or how to hold a cue ! Hope that doesn't make me a bad guy in your eyes.

Dick

I thought you were going to teach me how to hold the cue right so no more Thumby!

 

[pooltchr]

Sir, if you think there are only two things that can cause you to miss a shot....you are telling me that you have much to learn about pool. You may be a very qualified teacher of fundementals, but you have told me that your experience at high level competition is somewhat lacking. Aiming is a very small part of the game at its highest level. Any shortstop can fire balls in the hole. Pool at its highest level, exists mainly between the ears.

Dick

I totally agree there is more to pool than aiming and shooting. Planning, speed control, knowing what kind of spin you need on a shot, maintaining your mental focus, etc are all part of the game. But the bottom line is rule number one in pool..."first, make the shot!". I may have everything else all taken care of, but if I fail to put the object ball in the pocket, I'm heading for the chair.

Steve

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

I totally agree there is more to pool than aiming and shooting. Planning, speed control, knowing what kind of spin you need on a shot, maintaining your mental focus, etc are all part of the game. But the bottom line is rule number one in pool..."first, make the shot!". I may have everything else all taken care of, but if I fail to put the object ball in the pocket, I'm heading for the chair.

Steve

Bingo you hit the nail on the head, as your mental focus is a big part of ball sinking.:thumbup:

 

[Colin Colenso]

I had hoped to bring more of the "aiming system" guys into this discussion.
I am always butting into their threads with my neandrethal viewpoints.
I hope I haven't offended them, as I value the give and take on this subject.

Dick

Hey Dick,
I can appreciate much of what you are saying, even if I don't agree with it completely.

There is much more to becoming a top player than being able to aim as you say, and I think players can learn to aim well with or without systems if they have the requisite determination and abilities.

That said, I do think systems have the potential to accellerate players up the learning curve.

In a lot of examples of success in the early stages of development, say local tournaments for example, the ones who dominate the fields are usually the better potters. Being able to pot well allows a player to begin focusing more heavily on shape execution, so pretty soon good shooters become good and knowledgeable shape players. This leads the player on to becoming a much better shot selector and pattern selector because they have a deeper knowledge of the likelihood of them executing the various shot options.

So, breaking through the 'aiming' challenge is perhaps the first and major obstacle to becoming a top player. Those that are very confident in their potting and shot making have a big advantage imho because they can dedicate more of their practice and thinking to the more advanced and cerebral challenges of the game.

Colin

 

[SmoothStroke]

SJ,Honest and fair

Good Thread
If I can add anything I would say "" Speed Pool ""
If you watch speed pool you can see these players are not using a mathematical aiming system, they are using an alignment system. They are in alignment or close to it before the cue ball stops rolling. Worse case scenario is they have to move their entire body very little to get square to the line of aim, one stroke and pocket the ball.
They run a rack of eight ball, all 15 balls in less than 2 minutes. Watch the young kid McGrath, in alignment and a straight stroke , that's it.
Like yourself I respect all the gentlemen who work very hard on aiming systems. I believe alignment systems are easier and keep your head free of unnecessary calculations. Take a poll on the top 100 players worldwide and I think you would find ( this is a guess ) 99.9% of them use an alignment system.

I also agree there is definitaly more than 2 reasons a shot can be missed.

 

[devindra]

I don't get it. If you think that aiming systems don't exist well then fine. No need to start an aiming thread every 5 minutes.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Hey Dick,
I can appreciate much of what you are saying, even if I don't agree with it completely.

There is much more to becoming a top player than being able to aim as you say, and I think players can learn to aim well with or without systems if they have the requisite determination and abilities.

That said, I do think systems have the potential to accellerate players up the learning curve.

In a lot of examples of success in the early stages of development, say local tournaments for example, the ones who dominate the fields are usually the better potters. Being able to pot well allows a player to begin focusing more heavily on shape execution, so pretty soon good shooters become good and knowledgeable shape players. This leads the player on to becoming a much better shot selector and pattern selector because they have a deeper knowledge of the likelihood of them executing the various shot options.

So, breaking through the 'aiming' challenge is perhaps the first and major obstacle to becoming a top player. Those that are very confident in their potting and shot making have a big advantage imho because they can dedicate more of their practice and thinking to the more advanced and cerebral challenges of the game.

Colin

Colin,

I appreciate your input probably more than any other on this forum. I guess my critcism of AS touters may be based on the fact that, as a youngster, I absolutely hated math. I simply refused to do it. I did learn to count money very early on, but I am still glad I never wasted one brain cell trying to learn algebra or trig.
Your intellect (and others like you) I frankly find a little intimidating. I know I would have a hard time keeping up with you on most subjects.
That being said, can you tell me why AS touters almost always wind up in a slugfest with each other on their various differences of opinion on how to best convey them.(or even understand them)
Do you not agree that it would take an MIT graduate to apply all those mathematical principles while bent over trying to make a long thin cut on the nine ball.
Most of the worlds pool players do it for enjoyment and competition. The ones who become very proficient at it, did so because they realized very early on, they had an unusual grasp for the game the others simply did not.
Take those 100 kids Don Cherry was talking about. I know you feel you could change that 1% factor if you had them from the git-go. To me that would be
like forcing a kid to take piano lessons when he has no desire to learn music.
I agree, anyone can be taught anything given enough time. But very few can be taught to hit a curve ball like Sammy Sosa, or snake in a long putt like Tiger. Engineering principles did NOT get them where they are today.
I'm starting to ramble. I do want to thank you again for responding in your always friendly manner.
Just know that I would not get up out of the electric chair to subscribe to Lord Kelvin's (your sig line) numerical theory. :wink:

G'day Mate

Dick

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Colin,

I appreciate your input probably more than any other on this forum. I guess my critcism of AS touters may be based on the fact that, as a youngster, I absolutely hated math. I simply refused to do it. I did learn to count money very early on, but I am still glad I never wasted one brain cell trying to learn algebra or trig.
Your intellect (and others like you) I frankly find a little intimidating. I know I would have a hard time keeping up with you on most subjects.
That being said, can you tell me why AS touters almost always wind up in a slugfest with each other on their various differences of opinion on how to best convey them.(or even understand them)
Do you not agree that it would take an MIT graduate to apply all those mathematical principles while bent over trying to make a long thin cut on the nine ball.
Most of the worlds pool players do it for enjoyment and competition. The ones who become very proficient at it, did so because they realized very early on, they had an unusual grasp for the game the others simply did not.
Take those 100 kids Don Cherry was talking about. I know you feel you could change that 1% factor if you had them from the git-go. To me that would be
like forcing a kid to take piano lessons when he has no desire to learn music.
I agree, anyone can be taught anything given enough time. But very few can be taught to hit a curve ball like Sammy Sosa, or snake in a long putt like Tiger. Engineering principles did NOT get them where they are today.
I'm starting to ramble. I do want to thank you again for responding in your always friendly manner.
Just know that I would not get up out of the electric chair to subscribe to Lord Kelvin's (your sig line) numerical theory. :wink:

G'day Mate

Dick

Dick,

I think most system users are just like you - the math doesn't matter. The majority of aiming system users do not worry about the math - they only worry about the ball going in the hole.

The center-to-edge and 90/90 systems (which I think are close relatives of each other) have been around for many decades. They are not new. They've definitely been around longer than I've been alive. Someone else mentioned earlier that these seem "new" because there wasn't much for pool instruction in years past.

I believe much of this information was kept in clicks and not openly shared. That's another reason they're SO old and many are just now learning them.

I also believe many players swivel their cue subconsciously to some degree while aiming and always have, without knowing why.

Although this information is systematic and mechanical when first learned, it eventually becomes second nature and part of the sub-conscious. Nobody ever stays mechanical forever. I just see with center-to-edge or 90/90 line, pivot and shoot. It takes about a second to see/figure. It's no different than someone being "mechanical" when finding the base of the ghostball and pivoting to the cue ball to find the line of aim. Eventually they "see" the ghostball and shoot.

I use an aiming system and I can position / make balls just fine. As a matter of fact, personally, I couldn't fathom aiming with ghostball or guess work ever again. For me, it's just a WAY more solid foundation to build on than ghost ball / complete feel. This is all just a personal opinion.

Dave

 

[Big C]

Dick, I have a request. Would you please let us know how you aim? You don't have to call it aiming. Maybe just call it your method for pocketing balls. Would you please?

 

[SJDinPHX]

Dick, I have a request. Would you please let us know how you aim? You don't have to call it aiming. Maybe just call it your method for pocketing balls. Would you please?

Big C, I would be the last person to ask about aiming. All I do now is beat the rubber to death. (maybe I should try some lessons from Colin ?)
Seriously, I was a fairly good shot-maker in my time. I don't think I ever gave any thought to it any more than I did about walking. Repetition, (and missing lots of balls) eventually got to where pool became a natural part of my life.
If I were not fairly successful at it, I don't think I would have stayed with it very long. Thats all I can say. I have NO secret method. If I did, I would be glad to share it.

Thanks for asking.

Dick

PS I think you would get the same answer from any player close to my age group.(which is very,very old.)

 

[Neil]

................

 

[alstl]

I think all the top players have an aiming system, but it isn't something they calculate numerically or even think about. It is something they have developed from hitting thousands of balls.

 

[Mowem down]

Good job...(Everyone)

I made a statment "can all the my aiming system can beat up your aiming system crap" because this is the stuff i come on here looking for. I must say this thread has been a pleasure to read. (I skipped some) Alot of good comments and info...

my take: there are ways to aim (no doubt). But making the "ball" is only part of making the "shot"..(for sure)...The only system for learnning squirt, swerve, throw, speed ect. is to shoot balls till your "EYES ARE BLEEDING". And as soon as you get it figured out, change the felt.

Mowem Down

 

[SJDinPHX]

I think all the top players have an aiming system, but it isn't something they calculate numerically or even think about. It is something they have developed from hitting thousands of balls.

Most pool players I know would have a hard time thinking about anything.
Thinking about two things simultainiously would render them comatose.

 

[Big C]

Big C, I would be the last person to ask about aiming. All I do now is beat the rubber to death. (maybe I should try some lessons from Colin ?)
Seriously, I was a fairly good shot-maker in my time. I don't think I ever gave any thought to it any more than I did about walking. Repetition, (and missing lots of balls) eventually got to where pool became a natural part of my life.
If I were not fairly successful at it, I don't think I would have stayed with it very long. Thats all I can say. I have NO secret method. If I did, I would be glad to share it.

Thanks for asking.

Dick

PS I think you would get the same answer from any player close to my age group.(which is very,very old.)

I'm not asking for any secrets or magic bullets. I would just like to know what goes on in your head. What you are visualizing and thinking. I started playing pool as a child and I can remember trying to hit the CP on the OB without anyone ever teaching me. I just picked the cue up and started playing and it was instinctive. Missing shots made me mad because I couldn't figure out why I would miss the shot even though it looked like it would go in. Some days I could make 'em from anywhere and other days it was a struggle. So, being the tinkerer that I am, I sought knowledge from people and books and learned several different aiming methods. I finally realized that I had already been using them before I knew what they were called and that made me even more frustrated because I thought if I already had the answers, how could I still miss? So I turned to a teacher, Randy G and he showed me what I didn't know. Proper mechanics, pre-shot routines, self diagnostics and another form of aiming calls S.A.M. With all this new information and mechanics my game took a step back. But I had faith and I stuck to the drills and practicing my mechanics and stroke and things started to click. But there was still something that was not right and I thanks to Joe Tucker I found out what it was. My perception was flawed. The effects of that was causing my cue stick to look like it is pointing where it was not. Does that make sense? The technical term for it is parallax error which means that I was getting too much information from my right eye and not enough from my left. Joe's training aids forced me to properly sight down the cue so that it is in line with my aim. Now that my perception was better I had to relearn how to aim. Since Joe was able to help my perception I also tried his aiming method and it is working out quite well. It's not a magic bullet, but it is a very reliable method to find the right line to make the CP's on the CB/OB match up to make the ball. Am I finished learning? No sir! I want my aiming to become second nature. That's why seek out information from people on this forum and I try to share what little I have to contribute. Haven't you ever watched someone play that you admired and wished that you could know what it was that they were thinking about?

 

[Colin Colenso]

Aiming System Slugfests

can you tell me why AS touters almost always wind up in a slugfest with each other

Dick

A few reasons come to mind Dick;

1. The odd troll pops into such threads just to heckle with some 'just shoot da damn ball in' comment, getting people a little testy.
2. People cling to their pet system of the month like a dog does to a bone. They often react to any criticism or in depth questioning of it. With a pet system of the last few years, well, having a go at that is like having a go at their missus.
3. Many who use systems are not able to give in depth, understandable or at times accurate explanations of their system or how to apply it.
4. Some of us geometry / physics nerds get testy when we're told we're wrong or our points are irrelevant. Especially when it is about something which to us seems obvious and of crucial importance to the world. :grin:

All that, and probly more I can't think of right now, pretty much guarantees an action packed discussion when it comes to aiming systems.

Colin ~ will answer more tomorrow. Bed time now for me.

 

[Scott Lee]

Dick...Every great player began as a total novice. For MOST of them, someone showed them some things...like how to hold the cue, and how to move it somewhat accurately and repeatedly, at different tip positions and different speeds (and the differential results). Then by practice they got to the point where they did these things automatically. Then experience applying these skills is what made many of them top players. Very few top players never got any influence from someone else (meaning, I guess, that they would be savants or complete naturals). BTW...those same 'fundamental basics' are based on engineering principles (Newton's Laws of Motion, for example).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Pool is NOT A MECHANICAL SCIENCE, and anyone who tries to convince me that it is, is wasting their breath. Yes you can help a novice to improve his game, just as you can teach your son to shoot a rifle.
You can show him how to hold the gun, and be steady, and to squeeze the trigger, but you CANNOT show him how to hit the tin can. That comes from a lot of misses, and a lot of frustration, UNLESS he's a natural at it.
I don't say these things to discourage people who want to learn the game we all love. I'm only trying to explain my thoughts on what it takes to become a
top notch player. And it doesn't begin with engineering principles. It begins with learning the basics and practicing those basics until you become the best player YOU can be.

Dick

 

[alstl]

Most pool players I know would have a hard time thinking about anything.
Thinking about two things simultainiously would render them comatose.

I agree with your basic point, most of the top players are not using one of the book learned systems. Their "system" is something they have been doing for so long they don't even consciously think about it, but they do calculate a place to aim.

I once thought about playing pool while typing on the internet. I think I'll go hit some balls.