Alleged padding of B&R's in the UPL tourney?? WTF?

JCIN, thanks for clearing up the facts. It's crazy how carried away these threads get.

On a side note, it was good to hear that Johnny, someone who has no vested interest in either of the other players doing well, came in and stopped the vote. That was a very classy move by him. Also, given the history with Corey and CW, I'm impressed at the way Corey handled the situation in a professional manner, even if the idea of having a vote was a little off based.
 
No, not business as usual. That means right back to shady moves that never get proven.

If anything, people in the industry need to approach things with their eye wide open for the future events.

If there are more tournaments like this one where the format is easy to take advantage of, i think it's safe to say that not everyone thinks the players can be trusted, including some of the players themselves.

So don't give them a chance to do it.
Stick them under the microscope and dissect their every move.

Seems like the only option to me to prevent the possibility in the future

To me, despite all the controversy and allegations, this thread has brought cheating to the forefront of pool issues, and that's a good thing in my mind as the more people are aware of it, the more can be done to prevent it.
 
Whut tha HELL??

ShootingArts said:
Matt,

You are just posting what others are thinking. The two players supposedly involved aren't desperate for money nor are they stupid. If the allegations of blatant score sheet fixing are true it looks more like an attack on Corey's new enterprise than an attempt to make a few bucks.

Hu
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watchez said:
This statement shows that you don't have a clue. I know several big bankroll players that wouldn't think twice.
Again - MANY players that are exalted on this site over and over again would make the list.

This is not a comment on the two players mentioned because I was not there nor have I talked to anyone there.
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Watchez,

You and I are saying essentially the same thing and you are calling me clueless. Obviously we are both clueless or understanding a post before engaging your keyboard isn't one of your strong points.

Hu
 
JCIN said:
What on earth makes you guys think Corey didnt already do all he could do and was not able to prove anything ? I WAS THERE and watched him and John DiToro do the best they could to get to the bottom of it and IMO they absolutely did the right thing in the end.

Why would he come here to justify his actions to people who have no material interest in the outcome? Where are all the players who were directly effected standing up and saying people cheated ? They were the ones who lost money if it is the case. If I truly believed in my heart someone screwed me out of money by cheating in a tournament I would stand up and say something. That is yet to happen in this case.

Anyone who sits in the background mumbling "There was cheating" but won't stand up, state their name and prove it are as much a cancer on the game as someone who does cheat.

One example that people have nowhere near the information needed to make a rational judgement is this: Does anyone know how many B&R's Charlie had in the next round with people watching him ?

What about the pro who watched the first part of the match in question and the very first thing he said to me when I walked in before all this was brought up was "Dude you should have seen Charlie he was breaking like a monster."

Screw it. In the interest of satiating the undying fervor of a few here you go:


There were three written statements from people in the crowd saying what they saw in the match. Two were unsigned and looked like they were written by 6th graders one was signed by "Sgt. Muhammed Ali". None were complete narratives from beginning to end and all mentioned seeing multiple run outs but in no context of when in the match they were.

No one to my knowledge could locate the "witnesses" when the discussions about the match were taking place. I do not know who got the statements from them I only saw the three pieces of paper with the statements on them.

One pro called Charlie and told him about people questioning the numbers and that they were going to look at the tape. The pro told me that Charlie's words were "Good. Just tell them to watch it and they will see." There was no tape as I had decided to miss the first round of the day so I could sleep. I was beat from the set up and first day and decided to sleep seven hours instead of five. Whether Charlie knew the tape wasn't running or not I don't know because I wasn't there but they were playing on the streaming table.

One player in the event said he watched the last two games but didnt see any B&R's and one was marked for the second to last game on the score card. This is the biggest red flag to me but I find it difficult to place a lot of weight on the statement of someone who has something to gain by having two people ahead of him in the standings removed. I do not know this player and so I can't place any weight on his version one way or the other but the situation remains the same he would gain if people in front him were removed.

There were four eraser marks on the score sheet where something had been marked then changed. Which in itself does not mean much to me because everyone was having problems keeping stuff straight from what I was able to see. Including the TD and Corey. Several times they had to go back and redo something because they put a number in the wrong place in the spreadsheet. For the last round the spreadsheet program died and they had to borrow my phone to use as a calculator and do the computations by hand. Things were getting screwed up all over the place by everyone.

Corey WANTED to find something to make an example if he could prove someone was screwing with his event. He could not find direct proof. He asked the players to replay the match because of the screwed up scorecard and they refused. (As I would if I just had a great match legitimately) Players were grumbling and Corey felt he had to do something to appease them even though there was not enough evidence for him to DQ the players. He made what was in my mind a bad decision to have the players vote on what to do by blind ballot. IMO he did this because he wanted an out with players so he could say "You voted on it" instead of taking all the heat for the decision.

Johnny Archer came in and saw what was going on (basically a vote to expel two players by people who did not witness the facts) and put a stop to it and was 100% right IMO. His take was that no way could people who did not see the match and would gain by having two leaders removed vote on the outcome. He was absolutely right. Frankly at this point it had turned into a circus.

John DiToro basically made the final decision with a great deal of logic. The "witness" statements were basically a joke that made no sense when read independently or together and the only thing they had in common was people seeing lots of run outs. The score sheet was screwed up but so were a lot of other things. Nothing added up to enough to kick out two players so they did not.

That is what I witnessed on site. Now if someone can get enough out of that to kick out two players, label them cheaters, ruin their reputation as competitors and impact their livelyhood then I do not want them sitting in judgment of me if I am ever accused of anything.

After it was all over and the next round was almost over I walked by Corey and he said "I guess Charlie is going to win the tournament...he is working on five Break and Runs now in this round." What he didint say but I knew he meant was Charlie was on working five with a lot of eyeballs on him.

I asked Rodney later what his take on the whole deal was. He said (this is best I recall and not a verbatim quote) "It's a shame they picked my match to talk about something being funny. This format I knew it would happen. They just picked me." He wasn't mad or pissed just like he kind of expected things to get screwed up and he was the one who got caught in the crossfire. he was not too pissed at least when I spoke to him because I dont think anyone actually called him a cheater face to face it was more of an innuendo thing. He was relaxed during the whole thing and was in the room when people were talking about it.

That is what I saw. That is what I base my judgment on. If someone can come here and prove to me that I was mistaken I will listen.

I am not saying nothing happened. I am saying no one proved something happened to the standard I require.
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The witness muhammad ali... When I first met him I thought to myself (is that really his name) It really is his name. He is a good guy also. I believe he's done 5 tours in iraq. He plays pool also.
 
Man o man, I can't believe anyone would accuse Rodney of doing anything shady. He's such a great guy. I mean, seriously...where do people get off with that?

Russ
 
why not earlier in the thread????

JCIN said:
What on earth makes you guys think Corey didnt already do all he could do and was not able to prove anything ? I WAS THERE and watched him and John DiToro do the best they could to get to the bottom of it and IMO they absolutely did the right thing in the end.

Why would he come here to justify his actions to people who have no material interest in the outcome? Where are all the players who were directly effected standing up and saying people cheated ? They were the ones who lost money if it is the case. If I truly believed in my heart someone screwed me out of money by cheating in a tournament I would stand up and say something. That is yet to happen in this case.

Anyone who sits in the background mumbling "There was cheating" but won't stand up, state their name and prove it are as much a cancer on the game as someone who does cheat.

One example that people have nowhere near the information needed to make a rational judgement is this: Does anyone know how many B&R's Charlie had in the next round with people watching him ?

What about the pro who watched the first part of the match in question and the very first thing he said to me when I walked in before all this was brought up was "Dude you should have seen Charlie he was breaking like a monster."

Screw it. In the interest of satiating the undying fervor of a few here you go:


There were three written statements from people in the crowd saying what they saw in the match. Two were unsigned and looked like they were written by 6th graders one was signed by "Sgt. Muhammed Ali". None were complete narratives from beginning to end and all mentioned seeing multiple run outs but in no context of when in the match they were.

No one to my knowledge could locate the "witnesses" when the discussions about the match were taking place. I do not know who got the statements from them I only saw the three pieces of paper with the statements on them.

One pro called Charlie and told him about people questioning the numbers and that they were going to look at the tape. The pro told me that Charlie's words were "Good. Just tell them to watch it and they will see." There was no tape as I had decided to miss the first round of the day so I could sleep. I was beat from the set up and first day and decided to sleep seven hours instead of five. Whether Charlie knew the tape wasn't running or not I don't know because I wasn't there but they were playing on the streaming table.

One player in the event said he watched the last two games but didnt see any B&R's and one was marked for the second to last game on the score card. This is the biggest red flag to me but I find it difficult to place a lot of weight on the statement of someone who has something to gain by having two people ahead of him in the standings removed. I do not know this player and so I can't place any weight on his version one way or the other but the situation remains the same he would gain if people in front him were removed.

There were four eraser marks on the score sheet where something had been marked then changed. Which in itself does not mean much to me because everyone was having problems keeping stuff straight from what I was able to see. Including the TD and Corey. Several times they had to go back and redo something because they put a number in the wrong place in the spreadsheet. For the last round the spreadsheet program died and they had to borrow my phone to use as a calculator and do the computations by hand. Things were getting screwed up all over the place by everyone.

Corey WANTED to find something to make an example if he could prove someone was screwing with his event. He could not find direct proof. He asked the players to replay the match because of the screwed up scorecard and they refused. (As I would if I just had a great match legitimately) Players were grumbling and Corey felt he had to do something to appease them even though there was not enough evidence for him to DQ the players. He made what was in my mind a bad decision to have the players vote on what to do by blind ballot. IMO he did this because he wanted an out with players so he could say "You voted on it" instead of taking all the heat for the decision.

Johnny Archer came in and saw what was going on (basically a vote to expel two players by people who did not witness the facts) and put a stop to it and was 100% right IMO. His take was that no way could people who did not see the match and would gain by having two leaders removed vote on the outcome. He was absolutely right. Frankly at this point it had turned into a circus.

John DiToro basically made the final decision with a great deal of logic. The "witness" statements were basically a joke that made no sense when read independently or together and the only thing they had in common was people seeing lots of run outs. The score sheet was screwed up but so were a lot of other things. Nothing added up to enough to kick out two players so they did not.

That is what I witnessed on site. Now if someone can get enough out of that to kick out two players, label them cheaters, ruin their reputation as competitors and impact their livelyhood then I do not want them sitting in judgment of me if I am ever accused of anything.

After it was all over and the next round was almost over I walked by Corey and he said "I guess Charlie is going to win the tournament...he is working on five Break and Runs now in this round." What he didint say but I knew he meant was Charlie was on working five with a lot of eyeballs on him.

I asked Rodney later what his take on the whole deal was. He said (this is best I recall and not a verbatim quote) "It's a shame they picked my match to talk about something being funny. This format I knew it would happen. They just picked me." He wasn't mad or pissed just like he kind of expected things to get screwed up and he was the one who got caught in the crossfire. he was not too pissed at least when I spoke to him because I dont think anyone actually called him a cheater face to face it was more of an innuendo thing. He was relaxed during the whole thing and was in the room when people were talking about it.

That is what I saw. That is what I base my judgment on. If someone can come here and prove to me that I was mistaken I will listen.

I am not saying nothing happened. I am saying no one proved something happened to the standard I require.
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Well first off I like others on this thread were responding and stating our feeling on the issue, wether it really happened or not...just the idea of it disturbs many of us regardless if it really happened or not and wether it was blown out of proportion or not.

You cant get upset at people for stating their feelings on even a hypothetical issue, as some will and do strike a nerve...some good and some bad.

I will say this tho, thank you for giving a great run down and replay of what exactly happened. Your post was great and cleared much up, I only wish you had posted this earlier in the thread as it would have straightened much out. On the second hand tho at least now many people know how the general pool public would feel about something like this happening. That said, I'm sure many spectators and tournament attendees in formats like this and just regular tourneys in general will be watching, and players will be watching.

All in all this thread was a good thing and not bad, as it could have an effect on morality and the future choices that players make.

again thank you for clearing it up and laying out the details for us,
Keebie
 
it really sux that this great tournament at this great golf course was tarnished, every player should thank corey for puttin on this event, instead of taking a steamer on it.

There was no secret of cheating, I saw a player losing on purpose so there opponent could advance.

People always compare golf and pool, in golf people dont cheat because its considered a gentlemans game, I realized after this event that pool is not a gentlemans game.

The reason that no one would ever come forward and turn in the cheaters is why
?????

whats the benefit of snitching?
I mean someone spoke up and wrote a letter and nothing happened, and this is why there is no money in pool, because there is no interest from the general public
 
jamesroberts said:
it really sux that this great tournament at this great golf course was tarnished, every player should thank corey for puttin on this event, instead of taking a steamer on it.

There was no secret of cheating, I saw a player losing on purpose so there opponent could advance.

People always compare golf and pool, in golf people dont cheat because its considered a gentlemans game, I realized after this event that pool is not a gentlemans game.

The reason that no one would ever come forward and turn in the cheaters is why
?????

whats the benefit of snitching?
I mean someone spoke up and wrote a letter and nothing happened, and this is why there is no money in pool, because there is no interest from the general public
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People don't cheat in golf?

And Bonds was on the natch, the Easter Bunny is real and I am going on a diet right after Christmas.

As for the rest of your post, you have your reasons for not talking about what you saw. I don't understand them but I respect that you have them.
 
JCIN said:
Pool sucks. Pool players all suck. Everyone in the game sucks. No one is honest.

Can we move on now?

No one who claims to "know" is willing to talk so what's the point ?
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You give up to easily.
If you keep on it, maybe someone will finally get fed up, be totally disgusted, say the heck with it, and blab.

I think it has to do with fear of repercussions.

People are too chicken and don't want to turn themselves into pool outcasts.
 
What happened

I know I'm probably behind on this but what happened in the past with Corey and CW? It seems like it would have to be something pretty serious for anyone to even consider the fact of trying sabatoge a tourney outta spite. Can someone please fill me in.....Thanks
 
JCIN said:
Pool sucks. Pool players all suck. Everyone in the game sucks. No one is honest.

Can we move on now?

No one who claims to "know" is willing to talk so what's the point ?
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Its just my word,what i saw. I dont have any physical proof of anything and Im not a snitch.

It seems like there isnt enough money in pool so it forces real pool players to do things that maybe they shouldnt have to.

It sucks, maybe if i depended on income from pool I would be really pissed . IT sucks for players like justin hall and charlie bryant who missed the cut because of possible shenanigans
 
golf and pool

There is the occasional cheater that is caught playing golf at the pro level. From illegal balls that fly further to gross cheating like moving a ball. There is a huge difference though in how they are treated.

In pool somebody caught cheating or doing a little fixing is regarded as business as usual. If you get caught cheating once at golf it might be treated as a mistake or a serious black mark for years to come depending on the level of the offense and the reputation of the player. Get caught cheating more than once and you are very likely to forever carry the taint of a cheater and unethical player and person.

I do have to say that cheating is every bit as rampant in amateur weekend golf as it is in all levels of pool from what I used to hear from co-workers that played the game. Many many golfers can't count past five even using both hands and with their shoes off!

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
There is the occasional cheater that is caught playing golf at the pro level. From illegal balls that fly further to gross cheating like moving a ball. There is a huge difference though in how they are treated.

In pool somebody caught cheating or doing a little fixing is regarded as business as usual. If you get caught cheating once at golf it might be treated as a mistake or a serious black mark for years to come depending on the level of the offense and the reputation of the player. Get caught cheating more than once and you are very likely to forever carry the taint of a cheater and unethical player and person.

I do have to say that cheating is every bit as rampant in amateur weekend golf as it is in all levels of pool from what I used to hear from co-workers that played the game. Many many golfers can't count past five even using both hands and with their shoes off!

Hu
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LOL... I used to call that spring lies up here in the northeast.:rolleyes: plus anything higher than a snowman looks bad on the card:grin:
 
jamesroberts said:
Its just my word,what i saw. I dont have any physical proof of anything and Im not a snitch.

It seems like there isnt enough money in pool so it forces real pool players to do things that maybe they shouldnt have to.

It sucks, maybe if i depended on income from pool I would be really pissed . IT sucks for players like justin hall and charlie bryant who missed the cut because of possible shenanigans
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So if you are not a snitch, why bother posting at all?

To let everyone know that YOU know what happened, and that even if you had proof, you wouldn't be willing to put your neck on the line so that action can be taken?

Believe me, we get that message. Loud and clear.
 
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