Alternative slate leveling system

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm NOT a table mechanic. I came up with an alternative leveling system a few years ago in my head, and just put it in a sketch today. What do you guys think? Note, this is just a brainstorm, it can be built upon.

The main advantage this has, is the clamping method of the slate to the frame (the downward movement of the slate), and the leveling method of the slate to the frame (the upward moment of the slate), are co-axial. They touch the exact same point on the slate. This means that the process of tightening down the slate would not cause a bending of the slate (at that location).

In contrast, slates today have the clamping method and the lifting method of the slate separated by several inches. This would apply a torque to the slate and/or frame and bend things while tightening the slate screws.

Another thing this design allows is access to both raising and lowering the slate from below the table, while the cloth is installed.

Has anything like this been done in the hundreds of years of pool/billiard/snooker tables? Its a very simple design. I'd imagine some table manufacturer did something like this before.

Thoughts?

Screen Shot 2015-11-03 at 7.09.44 PM.jpg
 
I'm NOT a table mechanic. I came up with an alternative leveling system a few years ago in my head, and just put it in a sketch today. What do you guys think? Note, this is just a brainstorm, it can be built upon.

The main advantage this has, is the clamping method of the slate to the frame (the downward movement of the slate), and the leveling method of the slate to the frame (the upward moment of the slate), are co-axial. They touch the exact same point on the slate. This means that the process of tightening down the slate would not cause a bending of the slate (at that location).

In contrast, slates today have the clamping method and the lifting method of the slate separated by several inches. This would apply a torque to the slate and/or frame and bend things while tightening the slate screws.

Another thing this design allows is access to both raising and lowering the slate from below the table, while the cloth is installed.

Has anything like this been done in the hundreds of years of pool/billiard/snooker tables? Its a very simple design. I'd imagine some table manufacturer did something like this before.

Don't know if it's ever been done like this before... but I like the way you think.

.
 
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So to level the slate your with design you would need to rotate the threaded insert, correct??
 
So to level the slate your with design you would need to rotate the threaded insert, correct??

Yes. You would rotate the threaded insert which would either raise or lower the slate. The bolt would be loose at this stage. Then you'd tighten down the bolt, which would keep the slate secure, and would bottom out the slate to the shoulder of the threaded insert. The threaded insert may need to be threaded into an intermediate metal piece, so that its external threads would not eat away the wood over time.
 
Brilliant! Woodworking routers use a similar setup. I would make the threaded insert out of UHME(ultra high molecular weight polyethylene) as it is easily machine-able and super tough, and have torex screw fittings at both ends of the bolt. Also, I would give thought as to the amount of surface area between the top surface threaded insert and where it contacts the slate. You would need some radial wiggle room between the top of the bolt and the slate. Adapting this to an existing table wouldn't be all that difficult other than lining up the holes and tapping the frame for the threaded insert. As for being able to adjust the slate after the cloth is on, if you have beeswaxed or bonded your slate at their mating surfaces this might create a problem.
 

Joey, did you happen to notice the slates didn't mount to the frame of the table anywhere? I set a Riley up in Vegas, the slates were swayback, and even lifting the slates all the way up in the center until they were rocking back and forth on the center of the frame...there was no way to pull the outside edges of the slates down in order to level them out:eek:
 
Brilliant! Woodworking routers use a similar setup. I would make the threaded insert out of UHME(ultra high molecular weight polyethylene) as it is easily machine-able and super tough, and have torex screw fittings at both ends of the bolt. Also, I would give thought as to the amount of surface area between the top surface threaded insert and where it contacts the slate. You would need some radial wiggle room between the top of the bolt and the slate. Adapting this to an existing table wouldn't be all that difficult other than lining up the holes and tapping the frame for the threaded insert. As for being able to adjust the slate after the cloth is on, if you have beeswaxed or bonded your slate at their mating surfaces this might create a problem.

You ever drilled Brazilian slate before?
 
Joey, did you happen to notice the slates didn't mount to the frame of the table anywhere? I set a Riley up in Vegas, the slates were swayback, and even lifting the slates all the way up in the center until they were rocking back and forth on the center of the frame...there was no way to pull the outside edges of the slates down in order to level them out:eek:

That's messed up.
I'm liking my GC II more.
 
I'm NOT a table mechanic. I came up with an alternative leveling system a few years ago in my head, and just put it in a sketch today. What do you guys think? Note, this is just a brainstorm, it can be built upon.

The main advantage this has, is the clamping method of the slate to the frame (the downward movement of the slate), and the leveling method of the slate to the frame (the upward moment of the slate), are co-axial. They touch the exact same point on the slate. This means that the process of tightening down the slate would not cause a bending of the slate (at that location).

In contrast, slates today have the clamping method and the lifting method of the slate separated by several inches. This would apply a torque to the slate and/or frame and bend things while tightening the slate screws.

Another thing this design allows is access to both raising and lowering the slate from below the table, while the cloth is installed.

Has anything like this been done in the hundreds of years of pool/billiard/snooker tables? Its a very simple design. I'd imagine some table manufacturer did something like this before.

Thoughts?

View attachment 401199

How many leveling points do you figure is needed to level the entire slate. If moving a table with this kind of leveling system as you've taken the time to detail, you do realize the whole system is bolting the slate down right, and would have to be removed in order to take the slates off the frame...right? Then the frame you're talking about mounting this leveling system to, is 3/4" plywood right? How strong do you think that plywood is to push up the slate to level, do you think the plywood will stay in place as its supporting the weight of the slate being pinpointed right on the insert threads? Then, you seamed to have missed something, because you're showing the slate and extended frame to the outside edge of the slate....where's the slate backing to staple the cloth to? Also, are you aware that no table frame built on a pool table today, extends to the outside edge of any slate? Where do you in vision the rail bolts are in relationship to the leveling points, because the way you're showing it, they'd have to be off to the side of the leveling points....doesn't that counter your ides of slate torque, think about it a minute. Then, do you have any idea how hard it would be to drill flat bottom holes in Brazilian slate, let alone line up all the slate holes....with all the frame holes as they can't be drilled at the same time....just asking questions here is all...
Just because you can draw a rocket ship on a sheet of paper, that don't mean that sheet of paper will fly to the moon. I am the only pool table mechanic in the world that is rebuilding pool tables and installing a leveling system with steel plate joined slates turning them into a one piece slate....you've never seen my system up lose and personal, yet you design a system as you see it....as an improvement to leveling slates on a pool table, yet you don't realize what you feel you designed as an improvement, is in fact impossible to implement, and that's coming from my 32+ years of working on pool tables, pioneering a lot of changes through out those years as well.
 
Its a neat idea. Reminds me of adjusting the valves on an engine. Might be a good system on valley coin ops and some orher tables. May not be able to use normal predrilled spots but could be a great option on certian installs.
Most may not like it from slowing down install time and most still think an impact drill is god to assembling tables.
 
I think in the first sentence of the original post... He said..
Note: "this is just a brainstorm, it can be built upon."

I also think it's a very good idea and just needs tweaking.

.
 
How many leveling points do you figure is needed to level the entire slate. If moving a table with this kind of leveling system as you've taken the time to detail, you do realize the whole system is bolting the slate down right, and would have to be removed in order to take the slates off the frame...right? Then the frame you're talking about mounting this leveling system to, is 3/4" plywood right? How strong do you think that plywood is to push up the slate to level, do you think the plywood will stay in place as its supporting the weight of the slate being pinpointed right on the insert threads? Then, you seamed to have missed something, because you're showing the slate and extended frame to the outside edge of the slate....where's the slate backing to staple the cloth to? Also, are you aware that no table frame built on a pool table today, extends to the outside edge of any slate? Where do you in vision the rail bolts are in relationship to the leveling points, because the way you're showing it, they'd have to be off to the side of the leveling points....doesn't that counter your ides of slate torque, think about it a minute. Then, do you have any idea how hard it would be to drill flat bottom holes in Brazilian slate, let alone line up all the slate holes....with all the frame holes as they can't be drilled at the same time....just asking questions here is all...
Just because you can draw a rocket ship on a sheet of paper, that don't mean that sheet of paper will fly to the moon. I am the only pool table mechanic in the world that is rebuilding pool tables and installing a leveling system with steel plate joined slates turning them into a one piece slate....you've never seen my system up lose and personal, yet you design a system as you see it....as an improvement to leveling slates on a pool table, yet you don't realize what you feel you designed as an improvement, is in fact impossible to implement, and that's coming from my 32+ years of working on pool tables, pioneering a lot of changes through out those years as well.

I think you might not be understanding the sketch properly because of your comment of it being on the edge of the slate. The sketch is a cross-sectional view of the center axis of the screw. So, if hypothetically it was 3" from the edge of the slate, or 25" from the edge of the slate, the cross-sectional view would look the same. It means wherever the screw is, if you took a saw and cut right through the center of the screw, slate, frame, nut, etc, you would get the picture I drew.

The question of where to put the screws, they could go anywhere I would believe. As long as there was a frame member underneath the slate to support them.

The question of how many and where, I'd guess, that for a 3 piece slate design, you would put 4 of these bolts near the corners of each slate piece, and 2 near the center of the long edge of each slate piece. So, 6 screws per slate piece total. 18 screws per table total. For a 1 piece slate, probably less would be needed.

I do have an error in the sketch. The ID of the threaded insert is not supposed to be threaded. It should just be a smooth clearance hole for the screw. I'll fix it later.

The comment of the difficulty in taking the table apart, all you would have to do is unscrew the nut on each bolt from the bottom of the table. Then, the bolt you could just push upward with your fingers, and grab it from the top side of the slate. A few seconds per bolt.

The comment of the frame being thin plywood and flexing with the weight of the slate, I was envisioning these screws would be installed in the heavy beams of the frame themselves.

The comment of the counter-bored holes being very difficult to machine in slate, is that true also if they are drilled in a factory environment (as opposed to in the field by a mechanic)? I was thinking this would be another way to design tables from the factory, and not a retrofit. Are countersunk holes easier to do? The system would work the same way with a counter-sunk hole as a counter-bored hole.

As far as your comment of experience, you are correct I have none in designing or even assembling pool tables. That said, it is often a very good idea when brainstorming, to get people who have zero experience with the product of discussion to take a look at it. They might come up with an idea that the people with decades of experience don't see, often due to tunnel vision. This type of strategy is used every day in companies that design products. I brainstorm a lot in my day job, with teams of people. We always say there is no bad idea. And even if you think an idea might not work, to sketch it out anyway. It might cause another person to have an ah-ha moment and come up with something else that may eventually work.
 
As far as your comment of experience, you are correct I have none in designing or even assembling pool tables. That said, it is often a very good idea when brainstorming, to get people who have zero experience with the product of discussion to take a look at it. They might come up with an idea that the people with decades of experience don't see, often due to tunnel vision. This type of strategy is used every day in companies that design products. I brainstorm a lot in my day job, with teams of people. We always say there is no bad idea. And even if you think an idea might not work, to sketch it out anyway. It might cause another person to have an ah-ha moment and come up with something else that may eventually work.

Its called a "paradigm". This has happened to me many times, people will say "why don't you just do this?" At first I tell them it will not work, give them a few lame excuses and brush them off, but after giving it a few minutes of thought only to discover that with some modifications it will work and it is not such a bad idea after all. It was just something that you do not see at first because you get so used to doing things the way you have always done them.
 
As far as your comment of experience, you are correct I have none in designing or even assembling pool tables. That said, it is often a very good idea when brainstorming, to get people who have zero experience with the product of discussion to take a look at it. They might come up with an idea that the people with decades of experience don't see, often due to tunnel vision. This type of strategy is used every day in companies that design products. I brainstorm a lot in my day job, with teams of people. We always say there is no bad idea. And even if you think an idea might not work, to sketch it out anyway. It might cause another person to have an ah-ha moment and come up with something else that may eventually work.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the concept of your idea, but sir, what you completely fail to understand is this industry, and the manufacturers involved within it. What makes you believe any manufacturer in this industry would be open to the idea of spending $$$ to have new slates drilled to accommodate a leveling system for the slates, when so very few even care about any sort of system, to them, wedges work just fine. Besides that, the cost of installing a leveling system at the bottom of the feet for 95% of the home tables sold today would run less than $10 per table, I know, I install the levelers myself when ever I work on a home table....just to make the job of leveling the frame of the table easier for myself.

You use words like , COULD, HYPOTHETICALLY, I'D GUESS, I WOULD BELIEVE, PROBABLY LESS WOULD BE NEEDED, ENVISIONING. What you really fail to understand, is that the old saying, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" rings loud in this industry. One other thing you completely fail to understand is that the greatest source of knowledge on to improve the pool tables being built today, as well as all those that have come before them, comes from all those that have to work on "cabinet maker" or "design engineers" who do NOT have to work on, or follow up on the products they have designed, been produced, and sold! This is truly an uneducated industry full of misfits making a living calling themselves "pool table mechanic's" when in the truth of the matter, there are in fact very few that really know what they're doing working on setting pool tables up, installing the cloth right, and leveling pool table correctly.

Here's the problem with any kind of leveling systems already in use today, 99% of the people working on pool tables don't know how to use what's already available to be used. Diamond has one of the simplest leveling systems on the market today, and gets flooded with calls from people that don't know how to use it.
I have an even simpler system, which I might add, works 100%, so I don't need to improvement, it just needed to be taught.

In the words of Mark Gregory, and myself I might add, it's the job of a true pool table mechanic to fix, repair, change, or otherwise modify the pool table currently being worked on from all those that have worked on it before us, or what the manufacturer should have designed better in the first place, or at least along the way.

One other thing you fail to understand because you are not familiar with this industry, is the fact that almost no 2 pool table manufacturers share the same table frame design, so basically there's as many different pool table frames as there is car manufacturer's, therefore no one system fits all.

Here's one more point of view, if the table manufacturing industry truly wanted to build better pool tables today, they'd seek out the advice of the most knowledgeable pool table mechanic's today, and ask them for their advice on how to improve their products, but that hasn't happened as of yet, not since John Brunswick started building his first pool table, the closest to that request came from Diamond to me to help in the design of their coin operated pool tables....because I had background knowledge of not only how every coin op pool table had been built, but that I had already designed, built, and sold 128 of my own coin operated pool tables, which were unlike any other tables built at the time.

So, my only advice to you would be, you should really know something about the industry you feel you could help improve with new ideas.....first, before you consider some of your ideas for improvement....I'm just throwing my opinion out there, do with it as you like:grin:
 
Here's one more point of view, if the table manufacturing industry truly wanted to build better pool tables today, they'd seek out the advice of the most knowledgeable pool table mechanic's today, and ask them for their advice on how to improve their products, but that hasn't happened as of yet, not since John Brunswick started building his first pool table, the closest to that request came from Diamond to me to help in the design of their coin operated pool tables....because I had background knowledge of not only how every coin op pool table had been built, but that I had already designed, built, and sold 128 of my own coin operated pool tables, which were unlike any other tables built at the time.:

More than likely they are only interested in something if it will save them money without sacrificing their (non) quality. I do not believe the previous comment applies to Diamond as they build an extremely fine table, I can not comment on the GCVs as I have not seen one in person yet but I do think they are spectacular looking tables.
 
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