Am I over reacting or is this owner actually an $#!?

[gunzby]

I am another who doesn't quite understand the attitude differences. I lived in Cleveland, Ohio for 18 years and I've lived in NC for 14 with one year in California.

There are no doubt cultural differences between the north and south (Bible Belt....Bar Belt). I also feel that northerners are more blunt and straight forward, while southerners are more polite and sugar coat things. All in all when it comes to business they are very very much the same. When money is to be made it doesn't matter where you're from imho.

 

[gunzby]

Like I've said before and I think Arthur confirmed it as it being a blistering case of growing pains. Considering the equipment I saw being played on he will very likely see me playing there some time soon. So far as pool halls are concerned I will reserve judgment for when I have my own personal experience there.

 

[Flex]

Arthur is to be commended for stepping up.

There was no "New York attitude" in his post at all, for which this fellow is most pleased.

If he keeps what Jay Helfert wrote about pool being a "people business" and treats his customers with respect and Southern Hospitality, they'll become regulars for sure.

While I don't know if he has daily pool and drink specials, if he doesn't now, IMHO he should add them. Most of the places I shoot pool have them; only a few don't. And the few that don't have very, very low hourly rates.

Combine those specials with Southern Hospitality, run some inexpensive 8 ball and 9 ball tournaments, handicapped or not, get very friendly staff who the players like, and you'll have a place where people, not only players, will want to frequent.

Flex

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I lived in the Mount Kisco area.

Since you're asking about the attitude thing, please indulge me if I mention a few incidents.

Two happened at a camera store (not naming anyone in particular here, or the store) where I was a very regular customer, one who not only bought film in prodigious quantities, but who developed said film and had custom print work also done on occasion, and who purchased not a small number of cameras, both new and used 35mm SLRs (Nikons) and lenses from time to time.

The first time was when I was inspecting a good, used Nikon SLR and had some trouble removing the lens. One of their guys shouted out at me all the way from across the store to not break it. Heaven knows, and those guys did too, that I was not going to break a camera or lens. The camera obviously had a problem. When that jerk screamed at me, I blinked at him, and gingerly placed the camera back on the counter, and stepped away from it. I then told him that I knew what I was doing, that I wasn't breaking anything, and that his outburst was totally unacceptable. Then I said I was about ready to leave his store and never return again, and tell all my friends what just happened, unless he apologized to me. He did apologize.

Second time was in the same store, and I had just purchased some film, and the owner of the store sold it to me. At that moment, a horrendous crime was being reported on WCBS, newsradio 880, which was on and very audible, and I mentioned it to the owner, who simply ignored what I said, closed the register and went to the back of the store. Talk about being polite! He wasn't intentionally being rude, as far as I know, but just being himself, and it wasn't pleasant.

Third time, I was in the City, not far from the Ziegfeld, and for some reason a jerk said, unprovoked, "Where did they import you from?" Mind you, I was in a classic coat and tie. That jerk got a come back from yours truly, "I'm from ****** (place not far from Chappaqua) where are you from??" That good old New Yorker penchant for trying to make someone feel insignificant really did bother me, I admit.

Fourth time, at a printer's, in Brooklyn, of whom the proprietors were good friends. Said proprietor's brother, a New Yorker given to really salty language, when his brother was having some difficulty dealing with the delivery of a time-sensitive order, said "Gimme the phone" and then bellowed into the phone the following (I paraphrase), "You tell that g**d*** driver to stick that steel roller under his ***** and bounce up and down on it all the way here for 7 hours. I'm sure he won't forget to deliver it!!"

Jude, those four should be enough, at least for now.

Some time, I'll be happy to regale you with all the great, refined New Yorkers I know and how they too despise the crude, crass and offensive style of some of their confreres.

Respectfully,

Flex

Well, I have issues with rudeness. That's just about it. Have you ever thought about what your fellow az'ers from New York think of your opinions of our city? I mean, you correspond with az'ers from New York all the time and get along with them great. It's a bit sad to see how quick you are to throw our city under the bus.

 

[cleary]

Well, I have issues with rudeness. That's just about it. Have you ever thought about what your fellow az'ers from New York think of your opinions of our city? I mean, you correspond with az'ers from New York all the time and get along with them great. It's a bit sad to see how quick you are to throw our city under the bus.

Sadly, I have to agree that the majority of people in this city are very rude. Im not even sure if most of them even realize it either. Be it the Butcher who says "What else?" in his thick brooklyn tone instead of, "would you like something else?". Or asking for help at Home Depot and getting anything but help. Or just going into Blatt Billiards for an overpriced lesson in how to NOT treat a costumer. They have lost my business. But really, it happens everywhere here.

Im not originally from the city, so I may see things differently that you. But its obviously something I've adjusted to and learned to live with.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Sadly, I have to agree that the majority of people in this city are very rude. Im not even sure if most of them even realize it either. Be it the Butcher who says "What else?" in his thick brooklyn tone instead of, "would you like something else?". Or asking for help at Home Depot and getting anything but help. Or just going into Blatt Billiards for an overpriced lesson in how to NOT treat a costumer. They have lost my business. But really, it happens everywhere here.

Im not originally from the city, so I may see things differently that you. But its obviously something I've adjusted to and learned to live with.

Well, New York City is a unique place. Its population figures are unlike any other American city and to an extent, the personal charm one might be accustomed to in less populated areas might slip through the cracks here. With large crowds comes a need for efficiency and with these same large crowds, the probability of having a negative encounter will inevitably increase.

I'm sure if your New York experiences were confined to Times Square where population density is at its peak, you'll think this place is absolutely horrifying. Truth be told, most New Yorkers find Times Square horrifying. However, if your experiences were confined to a neighborhood like Cobblehill, you might think otherwise.

I just find it somewhat hypocritical that someone will cite "Southern Hospitality" and yet go out of their way to make New Yorkers on this forum feel uncomfortable. Does Southern Hospitality suddenly get put on hold when New Yorkers are the topic?

 

[Sweet Marissa]

Anyone I've ever met from New York has been nothing but nice to me. I've seen some rude behaviour in the south, though!

 

[cleary]

Anyone I've ever met from New York has been nothing but nice to me. I've seen some rude behaviour in the south, though!

Thats because they thought you were pretty

 

[katiemelady]

There are jerks wherever you go. From NY to FL to CA. I am from Charlotte NC and I think the people around here are nice, but there are some jerks too. It's just a little slower pace down here than in NY (or NYC). I happen to get along really well with New Yorkers. (That has been my experience so far.) I like the fact that they get right to the point and dont BS around. I dont think thats rude I think it is just a different way of acting that southerners are not use to. Everyone is different.
-Katie

 

[Wally in Cincy]

Years ago, Jimmy Valvano was asked about the difference between NYC and NC.

He said in NYC if you ask for the time they say “What the f**k do I look like, Big Ben?”

In NC they say “Oh you poor boy, you broke your watch. Let me take you home and cook you some supper”.

 

[jay helfert]

On another note, bringing this conversation back to pool, I will add a take on playing pool in New York. At least this used to be the case, I don't know how true it is today.

In New York poolrooms, players tended to be very aggressive, in your face type hustlers. We used to call it "The New York hustle." It was an aggressive style designed to intimidate your opponent and make him weak right from the start. And it worked quite well on many players who weren't that confident in their own ability or the environment they were in.

New York pool hustlers were brash, bold and aggressive. They would get you in a game as quickly as possible, win whatever they could and laugh about it afterward. You better bring your armor when you came to play in New York back "in the day." All over the country players knew what you meant when you said the guy was a "New York" type hustler. This was a guy who wasn't backing down from anyone or anything.

How that relates to running a poolroom I don't know, but I will agree that my observations of life in New York is like a lot of others. New Yorkers tend to be abrupt, to the point, no nonsense type of business people. They do not suffer fools kindly. Once you get used to it, it's okay. Like so many others, I prefer a little Southern hospitality.

 

[CreeDo]

I have the theory that generalizations about entire groups, whether it's people from a region or races or whatever, are complete bullshìt. That's not some hippy-dippy happy crappy holier-than-thou politically correct viewpoint that I take to sound wise and tolerant, it's just a hypothesis borne from experience.

French are rude, new yorkers are rude, americans are rude... it's all crap. You will meet nice people and rude people in any area. Someone might think one area has a higher density of rude people than others... but I think those people are either going in with the wrong point of view. To judge whether or not someone is rude you have to factor in intent. Rude is when someone knowingly treats you like dirt. If the butcher says "whaddya want" then logic tells you that butcher, who has never met you, has nothing against you. So it shouldn't be viewed as rude. He isn't intententionally trying to make you feel bad so why judge him as if he is? And you can fail to get help at any big box store in the country, as well as bad service at a pool hall. It's certainly not endemic to NY/NYC.

 

[trustyrusty]

I have the theory that generalizations about entire groups, whether it's people from a region or races or whatever, are complete bullshìt. That's not some hippy-dippy happy crappy holier-than-thou politically correct viewpoint that I take to sound wise and tolerant, it's just a hypothesis borne from experience.

French are rude, new yorkers are rude, americans are rude... it's all crap. You will meet nice people and rude people in any area. Someone might think one area has a higher density of rude people than others... but I think those people are either going in with the wrong point of view. To judge whether or not someone is rude you have to factor in intent. Rude is when someone knowingly treats you like dirt. If the butcher says "whaddya want" then logic tells you that butcher, who has never met you, has nothing against you. So it shouldn't be viewed as rude. He isn't intententionally trying to make you feel bad so why judge him as if he is? And you can fail to get help at any big box store in the country, as well as bad service at a pool hall. It's certainly not endemic to NY/NYC.

Yeah, but you're a CHOWD...so, of course, you feel this way, and can't be told it's incorrect. JUST KIDDING there buddy!!

 

[Quesports]

Playin Politics?

On another note, bringing this conversation back to pool, I will add a take on playing pool in New York. At least this used to be the case, I don't know how true it is today.

In New York poolrooms, players tended to be very aggressive, in your face type hustlers. We used to call it "The New York hustle." It was an aggressive style designed to intimidate your opponent and make him weak right from the start. And it worked quite well on many players who weren't that confident in their own ability or the environment they were in.

New York pool hustlers were brash, bold and aggressive. They would get you in a game as quickly as possible, win whatever they could and laugh about it afterward. You better bring your armor when you came to play in New York back "in the day." All over the country players knew what you meant when you said the guy was a "New York" type hustler. This was a guy who wasn't backing down from anyone or anything.

How that relates to running a poolroom I don't know, but I will agree that my observations of life in New York is like a lot of others. New Yorkers tend to be abrupt, to the point, no nonsense type of business people. They do not suffer fools kindly. Once you get used to it, it's okay. Like so many others, I prefer a little Southern hospitality.

WOW Jay, You are the politically correct poster of the day IMO! Are you running for office? Maybe the Mayor of AZ?? Come on tell us how you really feel.. LOL..
Sorry, but it was impossible for me to resist..
I can remember reading a letter to the editor in the Raleigh News and Observer one day and the writer was going off on the yankee folks moving to the area. As I recall he went on to complain of the fast talking, snow shoveling, carpet bagging, New York SOB's coming down here and being rude to everyone they meet. It was quite a read...
Carry On Folks!

 

[one2nine]

Paradise Billiards

I run a weekly tournament at Paradise. I also played in the event last weekend. I know you had a bad experience then, and you exercised restraint... I commend you for that. But, I partially have to defend or maybe just speak on behalf of Arthur. I have been there since day one. I even painted the place. Three things to take into consideration... (1)This is his first pool room. (2) He has been open two months. (3) This was the first tour to come through the room. Granted, there are mistakes going to be made, and maybe there was a mis-communication somewhere. But, I can vouch for him that he is new at this... he is a good guy, and generous to boot. He also supports pool players; something that you don't see to much of. And that Alisha at the front desk is a very nice.. smart, hard working gal. Do I agree with everything Arthur does? No I don't. However, It is his establishment, not mine.
Tournaments can be hectic for the room owner and staff. I don't think anyone expected such a big tourney.
So, having said all this...see you at the next event.

 

[Flex]

Well, I have issues with rudeness. That's just about it. Have you ever thought about what your fellow az'ers from New York think of your opinions of our city? I mean, you correspond with az'ers from New York all the time and get along with them great. It's a bit sad to see how quick you are to throw our city under the bus.

I'm glad you are opposed to rudeness too.

New York is fine; it's some of its inhabitants and their arrogant attitudes I have a really big problem with.

Perhaps I've just had to deal with more than my fair share of jerks over the 10 years I lived there. On the other hand, many friends had similar experiences.

Funny how I never have gotten those attitudes from people in places like Washington, DC, or Charleston, or Raleigh, or St. Louis, or Denver, or San Diego, or Sacramento, or San Franciso, or Chicago, or Madison, and a slew of other places.

And my many friends from New York who still live there by and large share my views on these matters, at least the ones with whom I have discussed this issue. I really don't understand what it is that makes some people who live there, whether in Westchester, or Brooklyn, the Bronx or Manhattan to act in those ways. Perhaps you can explain it to me, for I've no clearly understandable reason for them to behave in the manner I've described. I think they actually like behaving like that, at least some of them. Where does that come from?

New Yorkers are great, I really mean that. For a good long time, I was proud to call myself a New Yorker, at least in the literal sense. However, the bad apples that I've run into sure have left a bad impression. It's very tough undoing bad impressions.

And there is something undeniably "New York" about a certain style of arrogance, or brashness, of rudeness, and so on that seems to come especially from some people there. It's sort of a "oh yeah, I don't care what you think, you putz" and only seems to go down hill from there, for some people. When I was faced with that, I'd either walk away, or perhaps respond with understatement, or at times, let 'em have it verbally.

Sorry if I've offended you or any other New Yorkers here; it's not been my intention.

Flex

 

[ShootingRazbone]

Cmon... why get offended? The "legendary myth" about NYer's being rude has been around years and years and years. It is no secret here. Up until last year I was of this same feeling as my experiences the farther north I went the ruder the attitude I encountered. It was shocking and mind blowing to me how the people I met acted!
That being said I took a trip to Long Island last year to buy 3 Gold Crown pool tables from a pool room going out of business. I took the directions Mapquest gave me and it took me right through Manhatten unfortunitely. Unfortunite because I was driving a long bed pick-up dragging a U-haul straight through downtown NY lol. Felt like the Beverly Hillbillies coming to town! Never the less I asked several people right on the street for directions including the beat cops manning the Queens Midtown Tunnel. Everyone I encountered that day was exceptionally over the top nice and very helpful which in turn was shocking and blew my mind again lol.

Myth broken for me

 

[LPHooper03]

The owner was expecting to make money off of leaving all of the extra tables open for the public. He was also expecting to make money for the extra hours that people had to stay there to wait for their next match. I see this happen all of the time. Owners are milking their customers for money, by putting them in positions to spend money. Yeah, a good business can do it and make you feel good when you leave. Examples to cool the crowd:

Offer Drink and food specials for tournament players
Free practice play
Good Customer service when they have complaints (in your case, the owner should have given you the free table time, as soon as he heard your case...It doesn't matter the circumstances, the customer is always right! I have a hard time saying that, considering I have worked in the industry many years, but you do what you needs to be done to build that customer base)

Pop Quiz: Is there any successful retailer that you can walk into to return a product, because it wasn't satisfactory to your needs, and they tell you no? (We're talking a few days after purchase. Not years. Cheap asses)

 

[Fatboy]

Debated writing this up or not, but now that I've had 36 hours to cool my vents it's still bugging me and I wanted to get some others opinions (and here is a place where I'll get a lot of it!).

This occurred this past Saturday at the GSBT tour event at Paradise Billiards in Charlotte. Before I go any further as I know some people won't read the whole thing, this is in no way a criticism of the GSBT or Shannon/Marge who run it. They put on a fine tournament and I understand the decisions they made because as tour operators they are at the mercy of having owners bring their tour into their rooms (ie. they know you don't s*** where you eat).

Paradise Billiards where the event was hosted is a new room that's been open just over 2 months. I was excited as their website lists them as having 20 Diamond tables. My first disappoint was that they in fact only have 16 Diamonds (and 2 GC V's). Second disappointment was when I learned that they would only be using 10 of the tables for the tournament (I was figuring before hand with 20 tables he'd be giving 15 or 16 of them to the tournament). Third disappointment was that it was over an hour from when they opened at noon until they had a bartender. Come on, people like to drink beer when they play pool. Fourth disappointment was the windows in the place weren't tinted. On a sunny day in Charlotte with cars parked all across the front of the building you get a horrid glare off the car windows. But, these are just my "disappointments" at the place, not enough to have written this about purely...

So, I get there at like 12:10pm or so. Register for the tournament then go up to the front desk and ask about a practice table (which was advertised as free starting at noon). The person looks at the computer and tells me that only the tables in the tournament are free for practice, but they have a couple of "tight" Diamonds I can pay for by the hour. I look around and see there are still a couple of tables with only one person practicing, so I figure I'll go jump in on one of those. As I'm about to turn away the girl at the counter tells me to wait a minute, let her check something. She looks at her computer and tells me "You can use the Brunswick if you want". I tell her "sure" and grab a set of balls and head off to practice.

So, now fast forward about 2 hours. By this time the bartender has shown up and I decide to have a beer at the bar and talk to some friends who were there and to meet some new folks and let the people keep playing on the table. After the calcutta starts the girl from the front desk comes up to me and huffingly says "you're the guy who took table 12, you owe us $7.50". I try to very politely tell her "you told me that was part of the tournament and was free practice". She says "no, you're wrong, go up to the desk and pay." So, I wander up to the front desk and see the owner Arthur Rosen at the desk and think to myself "ok, I'm sure the owner will take care of it". So, head up to the desk and explain exactly what happened. He looks at me and says "I know my staff, they explain everything completely, they don't make mistakes, they made it clear you were paying by the hour!". I explain "If they had made it clear, I would have hopped on another table that only had one person playing that was free." He then not so politely says as he's ringing it up "I'll only charge you $5". I really don't give a damn about the $7.50, what I do have an issue with is feeling like I'm being screwed. I held my tongue as I didn't want this to ruin my day as the tournament hasn't even started yet.

So, I go on, have a few more beers play my first match (which I lose since I'm off...) and then head back to the bar. This is about 4:30 or so. Now fast forward to 8:30. I'm finally up for my 2nd match 4 hours later since there are 70 people in the tournament and we're only on 10 tables. What are the other 8 tables doing? Well one of them (a GC V) has a display on it and the tournament desk is setup next to it. Completely understand that table not in play. The other 7 tables they are renting out by the hour. To their regular clients? Nope. They barely have any regular clients. They are renting out the other 7 tables by the hour for practice. I can understand leaving one or two tables for someone who might come, but with the number of people they were all being paid for by tournament participants, so random people coming in wouldn't get a table anyways. So, this causes the 4 hours between matches. I'm hearing grumbling all around and the hours go by about this. People decide to start heading off to do other things and have their friends call when they are getting close to being up. This then causes some tables to sit there for 15 minutes without a match as they wait for people to show up. So, as I said, 8:30pm finally my 2nd match is up, against Arthur Rosen the owner.

I head to my table, get my cues setup and start bouncing a few balls around. About 10 minutes later I head up to the tournament desk and say "Arthur still hasn't shown up yet". I am then informed that he has headed out to the store to buy more food for the bar (this is the _2nd_ time that day that they have had to go to the store to buy food). I'm informed that they won't DQ him as he's the owner and put up $1,000 added (I understand this from the tour's perspective). Also of note, by this time they are already playing people on the next bracket level. I go back to the table and wait another 15 minutes or so and the owner finally shows up. No apologies for making me wait, no nothing. By this time I've basically sharked myself by getting annoyed and play horrid (my own fault). So I graciously tell him good game (no, I'm not being sarcastic). Pack up my stuff, head to the bar to pay my tab (about $30 or so) and head home.

I check the AZ boards later in the evening to see how some friends are doing and see that they had to cancel the ring game since the bar has to close at 2am sharp and they are still trying to get the matches in on the 10 tables...

Oh, and those two "tight" Diamonds that I could pay to practice on, they were part of the tournament. The same tournament tables that they said were free.

So... Opinions... This is a new room. The owner is trying to get people in the door. Has a tiny base of "regulars".

Q1: Do you charge people in the tournament for practice before hand even if they are using tables not in the tournament (aside from my issue with being told it was free)?

Q2: Do you drag on the tournament to 2am in order to make money by selling practice time to participants on 7 other tables?

Q3: Do you put the room ahead of your tournament play? (ie. If you have to leave to do work for your bar, should you drop out of the tournament if your name gets called before you're back _voluntarily_, which keeps the tournament staff from having to be put in the predicament of having to even think about DQ'ing the owner)


To me, this is an owner being an a$$... Trying to milk every dime out of a person no matter what the consequences in the future. Way to build a customer base! This is also the same guy who told the owner of another room he was "going to put him out of business!" Just what we need... Instead of building a new base of players lets plan on taking out other pool rooms. Just what this sport needs... Rumor is he's even offering to pay the weekly fee's of APA teams for the first session if they move to his room (Rumor, but I've heard it from two different people). I wonder if he's going to charge them $12/hour night rate during league after that... (Most rooms in Charlotte give free table time for league play).

Ok, end of my rant. Flame me if I'm wrong... I honestly want to know what people think. I know there are 3 sides to every story...

Brian

sounds to me like they just opened the room and dont have it figured out yet!, i'd give them a pass since they are new, now if they were open for say 6 months then-yeah they suk.

 

[watchez]

I run a weekly tournament at Paradise. I also played in the event last weekend. I know you had a bad experience then, and you exercised restraint... I commend you for that. But, I partially have to defend or maybe just speak on behalf of Arthur. I have been there since day one. I even painted the place. Three things to take into consideration... (1)This is his first pool room. (2) He has been open two months. (3) This was the first tour to come through the room. Granted, there are mistakes going to be made, and maybe there was a mis-communication somewhere. But, I can vouch for him that he is new at this... he is a good guy, and generous to boot. He also supports pool players; something that you don't see to much of. And that Alisha at the front desk is a very nice.. smart, hard working gal. Do I agree with everything Arthur does? No I don't. However, It is his establishment, not mine.
Tournaments can be hectic for the room owner and staff. I don't think anyone expected such a big tourney.
So, having said all this...see you at the next event.

Sounds like to me that this room owner went all in for this room and has no capital left to actually run the room correctly. Running to get food twice during the tournament is a key giveaway. Another is the website stating there are 20 Diamonds and actually only 16 in place. Businesses usually take more money to open than you budget and this newbie owner didn't put that into his equation.

I missed this info - was there a green fee for the tournament, and if so, how much?