American Straight Pool Championship - Oct 19th to 23rd *free* live streaming

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Clap clap clap

I really wish they would just stop right at the end of the match and record whatever the high run is. That continuing stuff just makes things that much longer than it needs to be.
Worse than that, it feeds the fiction that straight pool is about high runs rather than winning.

Tournament play is meant to be abut winning, not about high runs. If high runs occur in the course of play, great, but if they don't, there's no reason to try to manufacture them. Allowing continuation of runs is a step backward for straight pool. Do we allow a player that runs the last six racks of nine ball to win a match continue to see how many more they can run? Thankfully, we do not, as the match is over.

The growing notion that straight pool is about high runs rather than about beating opponents is why straight pool has become a practice game rather than an important discipline in pool.
 

Vahmurka

...and I get all da rolls
Silver Member
Here, runs continuation must be to easier determine the winner of $500 (for the whole tournament). I see part of the reason also that at Stage 2 the distance gonna extend probably. So those players who don't advance might have been with less opportunity (though there are $100 for best runners who don't get to the knock outs).
I also suppose that IF there was such a prize at a 9-ball event, players could have been allowed to continue their run, in case they are on any kind of that towards the end of the match (2 racks in a row at least? ;) ).
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Worse than that, it feeds the fiction that straight pool is about high runs rather than winning.

Tournament play is meant to be abut winning, not about high runs. If high runs occur in the course of play, great, but if they don't, there's no reason to try to manufacture them. Allowing continuation of runs is a step backward for straight pool. Do we allow a player that runs the last six racks of nine ball to win a match continue to see how many more they can run? Thankfully, we do not, as the match is over.

The growing notion that straight pool is about high runs rather than about beating opponents is why straight pool has become a practice game rather than an important discipline in pool.

I agree that a tournament run should stop when a player reaches the winning number.

However, I disagree with your blanket statement about feeding "the fiction that straight pool is about high runs rather than winning." High runs, in tournaments, exhibitions, and more recently in solo attempts have always drawn interest from 14.1 fans. Pesonally, I have always throught that one of the primary reasons 14.1 has died off in popularity is because people just don't want to spend that much time in the chair while their opponent constructs an ever lengthening run. I think nowadays players prefer games where, regardless of their opponent's skill, they're going to get to the table in relatively short order.

Lou Figueroa
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here, runs continuation must be to easier determine the winner of $500 (for the whole tournament). I see part of the reason also that at Stage 2 the distance gonna extend probably. So those players who don't advance might have been with less opportunity (though there are $100 for best runners who don't get to the knock outs).
I also suppose that IF there was such a prize at a 9-ball event, players could have been allowed to continue their run, in case they are on any kind of that towards the end of the match (2 racks in a row at least? ;) ).

i don't mind it unless it's slowing down the schedule, but many of these players are capable of running 200+ at any given chance. i saw zielinskis match and he looked like he could go on forever. surely this must effect the scheduling of the tournament?
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Here, runs continuation must be to easier determine the winner of $500 (for the whole tournament). I see part of the reason also that at Stage 2 the distance gonna extend probably. So those players who don't advance might have been with less opportunity (though there are $100 for best runners who don't get to the knock outs).
I also suppose that IF there was such a prize at a 9-ball event, players could have been allowed to continue their run, in case they are on any kind of that towards the end of the match (2 racks in a row at least? ;) ).
That's no reason at all. Any player not good enough to reach the single elimination probably isn't deserving of a high run prize. In the first eighty years of the straight pool era, there was always a high run prize in major competitions but runs always ended when the game ended. Winning your matches was the only way you got more attempts at winning the high run prize, and that made perfect sense.

Finally, the day nine/ten ball moves in the direction of permitting attempts at a record after a match has already been completed will be the day I stop watching.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
I agree that a tournament run should stop when a player reaches the winning number.

However, I disagree with your blanket statement about feeding "the fiction that straight pool is about high runs rather than winning." High runs, in tournaments, exhibitions, and more recently in solo attempts have always drawn interest from 14.1 fans. Pesonally, I have always throught that one of the primary reasons 14.1 has died off in popularity is because people just don't want to spend that much time in the chair while their opponent constructs an ever lengthening run. I think nowadays players prefer games where, regardless of their opponent's skill, they're going to get to the table in relatively short order.

Lou Figueroa
I agree with respect to exhibitions and solo attempts (i.e., practice runs). High runs can be the focus in these situations, but even then, most exhibitions done by Mosconi were single matches against a local amateur and, per Charlie Ursitti, Willie only continued his run on a few occasions.

Speaking as somebody who has attended 11 WPA sanctioned World 14.1 Championships (1976, 1977, 1978, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2010) in person, I do not agree that the high run prize drew much attention in the golden age of straight pool in competitions. Yes, the crowd always applauded when a player pocketed his hundredth ball of a run, but this was directed by the referee, who announced the length of a run after every single shot and would say as the 50th ball was pocketed "all applaud for the 50th ball" and would say as the 100th ball was pocketed "all applaud for the 100th ball." I never saw a run continued past the winning score in the 11 WPA sanctioned World 14.1 events I attended.

The truth is that few even knew who owned a tournament's high run and even fewer cared. The winner of the high run prize, which was not for much money, was generally not even announced in the awards ceremony at the end of a competition.

Finally, I don't agree with you on why the straight pool era ended. Personally, I think the players loved the game and few were bothered much by the long trips to the chair inherent in the game at the very highest levels. FYI, even at the most elite level, only a handful maintained a BPI over 8, so most matches averaged nearly 20 innings. Yes, some matches were over within a couple of innings, but most were not.

Straight pool was replaced by nine ball because nine ball was much easier to follow and more exiting for the viewer. In straight pool, in a refereed match, the shot intended was always announced by the referee, but this slowed the game down, and unless you were sitting very close to the table, you couldn't hear it anyway and had to guess at the player's intent. Unrefereed matches were even harder to follow.

It's no coincidence that the end of the straight pool era in the mid-1980's coincided with the boom in snooker, for snooker is the easiest game in the world to follow. You always start with a red, if you make it you can shoot a color, and if you make that, you can shoot a red, etc. I recall that when I first watched competitive snooker on British TV, it was really easy to follow, even though I had never played or even seen it. In nine ball, an onlooker never needs to be told what ball is being shot at, because it is always the lowest numbered ball. In addition, nine ball, like snooker, requires some long shots and some complex position play, the kind of things that tend to wow a viewer.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree with respect to exhibitions and solo attempts (i.e., practice runs). High runs can be the focus in these situations, but even then, most exhibitions done by Mosconi were single matches against a local amateur and, per Charlie Ursitti, Willie only continued his run on a few occasions.

Speaking as somebody who has attended 11 WPA sanctioned World 14.1 Championships (1976, 1977, 1978, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2010) in person, I do not agree that the high run prize drew much attention in the golden age of straight pool in competitions. Yes, the crowd always applauded when a player pocketed his hundredth ball of a run, but this was directed by the referee, who announced the length of a run after every single shot and would say as the 50th ball was pocketed "all applaud for the 50th ball" and would say as the 100th ball was pocketed "all applaud for the 100th ball." I never saw a run continued past the winning score in the 11 WPA sanctioned World 14.1 events I attended.

The truth is that few even knew who owned a tournament's high run and even fewer cared. The winner of the high run prize, which was not for much money, was generally not even announced in the awards ceremony at the end of a competition.

Finally, I don't agree with you on why the straight pool era ended. Personally, I think the players loved the game and few were bothered much by the long trips to the chair inherent in the game at the very highest levels. FYI, even at the most elite level, only a handful maintained a BPI over 8, so most matches averaged nearly 20 innings. Yes, some matches were over within a couple of innings, but most were not.

Straight pool was replaced by nine ball because nine ball was much easier to follow and more exiting for the viewer. In straight pool, in a refereed match, the shot intended was always announced by the referee, but this slowed the game down, and unless you were sitting very close to the table, you couldn't hear it anyway and had to guess at the player's intent. Unrefereed matches were even harder to follow.

It's no coincidence that the end of the straight pool era in the mid-1980's coincided with the boom in snooker, for snooker is the easiest game in the world to follow. You always start with a red, if you make it you can shoot a color, and if you make that, you can shoot a red, etc. I recall that when I first watched competitive snooker on British TV, it was really easy to follow, even though I had never played or even seen it. In nine ball, an onlooker never needs to be told what ball is being shot at, because it is always the lowest numbered ball. In addition, nine ball, like snooker, requires some long shots and some complex position play, the kind of things that tend to wow a viewer.

I would like to believe we have all progressed from the 1930’s, 40’s, and 50’s -- so citing what Mosconi did in his era is a pretty dated reference.

And granted, high run prizes at tournaments have not garnered much attention. I did not say otherwise.

Lastly, I said long periods in the chair is *one* of the reasons 14.1 fell in popularity -- I did not say it was *the* reason the straight pool era ended. As to 9ball, well yes, it was easier for the viewer but it also gave the players more time at the table as opposed to poor Joe Balsis who got to sit in the chair while Irving Crane ran 150 and out. People want to shoot. You can also see this in the popularity of 1pocket -- no matter who you're playing you're going to get table time.

And IMO, the boom is snooker had nothing to do with the demise of 14.1.

Lou Figueroa
 

Dimeball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree that a tournament run should stop when a player reaches the winning number.

However, I disagree with your blanket statement about feeding "the fiction that straight pool is about high runs rather than winning." High runs, in tournaments, exhibitions, and more recently in solo attempts have always drawn interest from 14.1 fans. Pesonally, I have always throught that one of the primary reasons 14.1 has died off in popularity is because people just don't want to spend that much time in the chair while their opponent constructs an ever lengthening run. I think nowadays players prefer games where, regardless of their opponent's skill, they're going to get to the table in relatively short order.

Lou Figueroa
yes, need that participation quick, sad really.
 

Dimeball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would like to believe we have all progressed from the 1930’s, 40’s, and 50’s -- so citing what Mosconi did in his era is a pretty dated reference.

And granted, high run prizes at tournaments have not garnered much attention. I did not say otherwise.

Lastly, I said long periods in the chair is *one* of the reasons 14.1 fell in popularity -- I did not say it was *the* reason the straight pool era ended. As to 9ball, well yes, it was easier for the viewer but it also gave the players more time at the table as opposed to poor Joe Balsis who got to sit in the chair while Irving Crane ran 150 and out. People want to shoot. You can also see this in the popularity of 1pocket -- no matter who you're playing you're going to get table time.

And IMO, the boom is snooker had nothing to do with the demise of 14.1.

Lou Figueroa
Also agree with this, the mind set of "that's how we've always done it, so it must be correct" is gone and done. That's the logic that continues to keep pool in the back drop of every other sport on the planet.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Also agree with this, the mind set of "that's how we've always done it, so it must be correct" is gone and done. That's the logic that continues to keep pool in the back drop of every other sport on the planet.
A separation between practice and competition is how it has been always been done in every sport and how it is done in every sport today, except in pool, and specifically in straight pool, for any play that goes beyond the end of a match is practice, as it has no bearing on the outcome of the match.

Yes, that's how it should be done, not because that's how it has always been done, but because there is a difference between practice and competition. Even the BCA recognizes this, which is why they have a separate record for highest practice/exhibition run to go along with the record in competition.

Perhaps we need a new category called "highest hybrid run", meaning a run that occurs partly in competition and partly in practice.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
And IMO, the boom is snooker had nothing to do with the demise of 14.1.
Agreed, but it reinforced the growing view of those producing new pool events that viewers preferred a game that was easy to follow and contained its share of very tough shots.
 

Dimeball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A separation between practice and competition is how it has been always been done in every sport and how it is done in every sport today, except in pool, and specifically in straight pool, for any play that goes beyond the end of a match is practice, as it has no bearing on the outcome of the match.

Yes, that's how it should be done, not because that's how it has always been done, but because there is a difference between practice and competition. Even the BCA recognizes this, which is why they have a separate record for highest practice/exhibition run to go along with the record in competition.

Perhaps we need a new category called "highest hybrid run", meaning a run that occurs partly in competition and partly in practice.
hmmm not exactly what I was referring to. Pool as a whole, including those today who love it, have to quit "looking", not, "forget" to yesteryear for how things should be done or operating. It just may be that the BCA or other ancient sanctioning bodies need to disappear for this sport to be recognized for how great it truly is, who knows, I don't... BUT I can tell you this, what's BEEN is exactly what's BEEN NOT WORKING.
Just maybe this match and practice combination, as you say, sparks the interest of some genius that uses my favorite game, straight pool, to improve pool as a whole... could be..
anyway, Earl played a hell of a match yesterday (y)(y)(y)(y)
 

Vahmurka

...and I get all da rolls
Silver Member
Stu, while I get your point that the run is supposed to stop when the match ends, I disagree with it being referred to as 'practice'. There is a certain goal a player chases, so there is enough pressure on them. Like when John Schmidt was trying to beat the record multiple times, I think his attempts were far from being practice, although he didn't have an opponent at all back then.
And we know how demanding a game of 14.1 can get at times.
 

8cree

Reverse Engineer
Silver Member
Jerry RingThey allow a run to continue after match is over.


AKedOLQnz9y8CtJ5oxbMbpKjfUi5EltUd442vM3RltFN=s32-c-k-c0x00ffffff-no-rj

iStreamPoolSo if the end the game with a run over 100 then we let them continue the run for the high run prize each round.


AKedOLSq-1xPl11VzDR7dxRpE1Hjrax4nnjMBAY4Og=s32-c-k-c0x00ffffff-no-rj

Hans Pa polish guy had 195 yday


AKedOLQnz9y8CtJ5oxbMbpKjfUi5EltUd442vM3RltFN=s32-c-k-c0x00ffffff-no-rj

iStreamPoolShane ran 210, Mika ran 181 and Wiktor Zielinski ran 194


AKedOLS20hRPO6wCP1VfLP2AIAn8qxPSu0mn9YB_T7F3=s32-c-k-c0x00ffffff-no-rj

nosaj raboinGreat rule


AKedOLQnz9y8CtJ5oxbMbpKjfUi5EltUd442vM3RltFN=s32-c-k-c0x00ffffff-no-rj

iStreamPoolFedor ran 125 and out on Tony Robles




Looks like runs are able to be continued if over 100 at the match end. (y)
 

skip100

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If there is a 100+ run and the player wants to keep going and the spectators want to watch, then what's the problem? High runs are awesome and fun to watch.

Snooker games go on well past the point of no return in order to watch the player try for a 147 or some other high score.
 
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