An open conversation on what pool in North America needs and can support.

[SJDinPHX]

I've read through all the responses posted so far and have come to one conclusion, no one gets the picture as to how to fix pool as a sport. Everyone seems to miss who the most reliable sponsor is, and all these ideas that have been thrown out there so far....still INSIST pool players MUST be handicapped so that ALL can have a chance at winning some money.....what a joke! It's no wonder why pool has never became a real sport.....even the Titanic as BIG as it was built, was still not big enough to carry all those that would want to get on board for for the maiden voyage just because they felt they belonged with everyone else because afterall, ALL pool players are created equal....with the right handicap right?.....and if not....adjust the handicap until they are!!!

As usual we are all idiots, and RKC thinks he is the only one smart enough to explain things for us!..Except, his analogies are a little strange..What on earth does the Titanic have to do with pool handicapping?..Did we hit an iceberg, or something?

PS..Also, RKC forgot to tell us who is the most reliable sponsor???......."What a joke" he is!

Right on 336Robin--> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5692148&postcount=93

 

[Island Drive]

I see your point but I have to disagree, Money begots money . There have been countless people that have a true love for the game. That and a couple bucks will get you a cup of coffee. Regardless of motivation, the capital needs to be there.

True, so does give and you will receive. The game needs something....different. Needs a reboot.

 

[Ken_4fun]

As usual we are all idiots, and RKC thinks he is the only one smart enough to explain things for us!..Except, his analogies are a little strange..What on earth does the Titanic have to do with pool handicapping?..Did we hit an iceberg, or something?

PS..Also, RKC forgot to tell us who is the most reliable sponsor???......."What a joke" he is!

Right on 336Robin--> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5692148&postcount=93

Agreed.

RKC is great at telling everyone how smart he is and how stupid everyone else is...:angry: It takes little brainpower to point at whats wrong, but it is difficult to come with real solutions.

I agree with most of the thoughts shown here, pool rooms are ghost towns instead of the places where youngsters are anxious to get inside. While leagues are bemoaned here often, I honestly think it is the only bright spot in pool in the last couple decades. The problem with league players is it doesnt seem to encourage them to go to the pool room and spend time (and money) on any time other than league nights. The seldom practice or try to improve.

IMO, TV is the only answer to allow professional pool to grow. There is lots of competition for TV time. My thought has always been to use men verses women (ie Bobby Riggs verses Billie Jean King). Jeanette Lee is probably the best known pool player in the general population, and obviously she isn't the best player. Sex sells. Shane VB is probably the best player in the US, and he has a great story to tell about overcoming a handicap and I have never even heard a peep outside the pool community.

Instead of sponsoring tournaments that will plant very little seeds for the future, if someone or somehow money can be raised for a marketing and leadership to pursue TV and mainstream exposure, I think that would be the best use of those funds. IT CANNOT BE A PLAYER, IT HAS TO BE A MARKET SAVVY EXPERIENCED PROFESSIONAL, I mean they could use a Ewa Mataya Laurance or Jeanette Lee as a player representative, but they are just representatives, not the lead.

Just my rambling thoughts,

Ken

 

[LIAKOS27]

As usual we are all idiots, and RKC thinks he is the only one smart enough to explain things for us!..Except, his analogies are a little strange..What on earth does the Titanic have to do with pool handicapping?..Did we hit an iceberg, or something?

PS..Also, RKC forgot to tell us who is the most reliable sponsor???......."What a joke" he is!

Right on 336Robin--> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5692148&postcount=93

Not ALL of us are idiots sir! I understood what RKC meant!

Maybe it's me and RKC that are the idiots?!?!

Open your mind sir, expand your horizons instead of only keeping sight on a pool table! I think your smart enough to get it

 

[pocketspeed]

nice thread but came late to it so pls forgive if I repeat sentiments in earlier posts.

I don't believe pool can be saved by one person willing to drop money into it. we all love pool but lets be honest: pool can be really boring to watch even when you LOVE the game. Tourneys are frequently held in horrible venues for spectators and even when the venue is awesome (like TurningStone) you still can fill up the arena and the admission is free!

the key is making pool fun and compelling to watch as a spectator. if there are no spectators there will be no sponsorship dollars.

I think that Mike Zugland would be a good person to consult as he has run a successful tour for years. Based on pple who play in it regularly you could even say a semi pro tour.

brian

 

[Blunoser]

Pool Room Owners Association (PROA)

The main issue for pool isn't to find a way to organize existing players. The main issue is to find a way to bring young people into the game. The PROA is working on a program that starts with pool room owners creating a "Little League" of pool. This is the starting point for a national effort to grow the sport. It starts with owners because they control the means to play the game, the tables. From this beginning, the next step is to have pool as an alternative sport in middle school. When that is sufficiently developed the next step is high school. This brings us to college where it is somewhat established already. This plan isn't any different in concept than baseball. There are many organizations that support baseball, for example the American Legion has a Little League program.

The PROA believes strongly that pool is a logical alternative for parents struggling to make a living and are faced with thousands of dollars needed to support their children in other school sports. An important point about other organized sports is that although hundreds of thousands of young people play in the various spots less than 100 go on to the pros, most of the rest of the amateur players never play their respective sport again. Pool, on the other hand, is a lifetime game.

Robert Lavallee
Pool Room Owners Association
poolroomownersassoc@gmail.com
352 600-9312

Most of the post have discussed the current environment, in my opinion that is not productive. The sport NEEDS MORE PLAYERS. Talking about tournaments that largely consist of pros paying to win back their money does not provide a path to improving American pool. Some have commented that young people are not taking up the game. How could they, where would they play? Worrying about TV coverage is assuming that pool is spectator friendly, it is not. Unless you play he game you probably would not watch it. The last time it drew people who did not play was before electricity became common.
American pool is becoming fourth rate behind Asia, Philippines and Europe. In world rankings in the top 150 China has about 80, the Philippine players make up about 35. Unless we make a serious effort to grow the game it will continue to decline. I play one-pocket and I realize it is boring, UNLESS you play the game! Most of the people I know in the sport, are passionate about the game. The issue isn't the game, it's terrific, the issue is getting young people into the game at an early age. Give them instruction, provide a place to play, create inter-pool room competition. All the above requires people dedicated to the sport, it means committing, not money but time.

 

[realkingcobra]

As usual we are all idiots, and RKC thinks he is the only one smart enough to explain things for us!..Except, his analogies are a little strange..What on earth does the Titanic have to do with pool handicapping?..Did we hit an iceberg, or something?

PS..Also, RKC forgot to tell us who is the most reliable sponsor???......."What a joke" he is!

Right on 336Robin--> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5692148&postcount=93

Well, I just spent a few hours on the phone with Robin....he now understands the way to fix this sport....so, keep guessing

 

[Dan_B]

I've read through all the responses posted so far and have come to one conclusion, no one gets the picture as to how to fix pool as a sport. Everyone seems to miss who the most reliable sponsor is, and all these ideas that have been thrown out there so far....still INSIST pool players MUST be handicapped so that ALL can have a chance at winning some money.....what a joke! It's no wonder why pool has never became a real sport.....even the Titanic as BIG as it was built, was still not big enough to carry all those that would want to get on board for for the maiden voyage just because they felt they belonged with everyone else because afterall, ALL pool players are created equal....with the right handicap right?.....and if not....adjust the handicap until they are!!!

geeez, just as I was starting at the end here, ...well, I probably still will read back
through it; any who, think racing as in the model/structure of horse racing - size,
attraction and money.

 

[realkingcobra]

Agreed.

RKC is great at telling everyone how smart he is and how stupid everyone else is...:angry: It takes little brainpower to point at whats wrong, but it is difficult to come with real solutions.

I agree with most of the thoughts shown here, pool rooms are ghost towns instead of the places where youngsters are anxious to get inside. While leagues are bemoaned here often, I honestly think it is the only bright spot in pool in the last couple decades. The problem with league players is it doesnt seem to encourage them to go to the pool room and spend time (and money) on any time other than league nights. The seldom practice or try to improve.

IMO, TV is the only answer to allow professional pool to grow. There is lots of competition for TV time. My thought has always been to use men verses women (ie Bobby Riggs verses Billie Jean King). Jeanette Lee is probably the best known pool player in the general population, and obviously she isn't the best player. Sex sells. Shane VB is probably the best player in the US, and he has a great story to tell about overcoming a handicap and I have never even heard a peep outside the pool community.

Instead of sponsoring tournaments that will plant very little seeds for the future, if someone or somehow money can be raised for a marketing and leadership to pursue TV and mainstream exposure, I think that would be the best use of those funds. IT CANNOT BE A PLAYER, IT HAS TO BE A MARKET SAVVY EXPERIENCED PROFESSIONAL, I mean they could use a Ewa Mataya Laurance or Jeanette Lee as a player representative, but they are just representatives, not the lead.

Just my rambling thoughts,

Ken

The problem with explaining my plans to someone like you, like most of the AZB members that think the way you do....is that they are so far past your ability to see into them....let alone.....comprehend......because they don't include the likes of you or anyone like you, although they do include the world changing how pool is managed....world wide, not just in this country.....and THAT is something you could NEVER understand....let alone be a part of.

 

[realkingcobra]

See.....in my plans, there is NO need to let cue, tip, chalk, glove, jump cues, cloth, ball, rack, DVD retailers.....or ANY OTHER manufacturers put up any sponsored money.....just so they can promote the sale of their products for penny's on the dollar....as their money is NOT needed....period.

 

[BeiberLvr]

The problem with explaining my plans to someone like you, like most of the AZB members that think the way you do....is that they are so far past your ability to see into them....let alone.....comprehend......because they don't include the likes of you or anyone like you, although they do include the world changing how pool is managed....world wide, not just in this country.....and THAT is something you could NEVER understand....let alone be a part of.

Ah, the ol' "I'm the only person in the world smart enough to understand my ideas."

Is this the same idea you had to make players take a test to determine if they were a professional?

 

[Dan_B]

I can sort of go along with this but I will add that we need to come up with something that Pool Players are happy with. You do that and you've got something. Pool is honestly a snore experience for television unless you have some drama included, look at racing they go around in circles! You start adding in the drama and Bingo! Now you have a winner. We need us some competition and some drama to make things interesting. Drama also draws numbers to events.

you're getting warm :thumbup:

 

[BmoreMoney]

A few more idears I has that have not been mentioned yet : first keep in mind the scale of sponsorship money we are talking about ---- having some sort of contest where the chances are drawn from actual participants over the course of a year. Possibly on a regional level have 5 or 10 chances at breaking in the 8 ball or 9 ball for either $5k or $10k in cash. Then at a " national " level Grand prize winner gets a chance to break in the 8 or 9 ( depending on the discipline the are in ) for either $50k or $100k CASH! Imagine the publicity that would draw EVERYWHERE throughout the year! And no break and run, truly just a break shot where absolutely anyone can win. Think about if a casino were to be involved in something like that - if they sold tickets or not, a member or not, Just the publicity and draw to their location would probably cover the prize nut. Also worth noting - THEORY HAS TO BE A WINNER! Each personew selected only gets one try, but it keeps going till someone does it!

 

[realkingcobra]

Ah, the ol' "I'm the only person in the world smart enough to understand my ideas."

Is this the same idea you had to make players take a test to determine if they were a professional?

Why do you ask.....is there something wrong with separating the players that SHOULD be playing at Pro level.....from those that SHOULDN'T be allowed to compete with them.....because they don't play as well....and NEED shorter races, alternating breaks....and all of the above.....or they WON'T put up an entry fee.....so without their entry fee money, there won't be any money to pay the REAL players? Why would anyone one even entertain such an idea

 

[BeiberLvr]

Why do you ask.....is there something wrong with separating the players that SHOULD be playing at Pro level.....from those that SHOULDN'T be allowed to compete with them.....because they don't play as well....and NEED shorter races, alternating breaks....and all of the above.....or they WON'T put up an entry fee.....so without their entry fee money, there won't be any money to pay the REAL players? Why would anyone one even entertain such an idea

Of course there should be separation, but you needn't have a gimmicky test to do so.

Professional tournaments shouldn't have entry fees.

In order to not have entry fees, we need sponsors.

In order get sponsors, we need viewers.

In order to get viewers, we need a better game.

It's been said that personality sells, and while that's true to an extent, most of the best players are quite lacking in that department. So unless we plan on hiring a bunch of actors and teaching them how to play world class pool, I think fixing or even changing the game (*cough*snooker*cough*) should be first priority.

 

[BeiberLvr]

A few more idears I has that have not been mentioned yet : first keep in mind the scale of sponsorship money we are talking about ---- having some sort of contest where the chances are drawn from actual participants over the course of a year. Possibly on a regional level have 5 or 10 chances at breaking in the 8 ball or 9 ball for either $5k or $10k in cash. Then at a " national " level Grand prize winner gets a chance to break in the 8 or 9 ( depending on the discipline the are in ) for either $50k or $100k CASH! Imagine the publicity that would draw EVERYWHERE throughout the year! And no break and run, truly just a break shot where absolutely anyone can win. Think about if a casino were to be involved in something like that - if they sold tickets or not, a member or not, Just the publicity and draw to their location would probably cover the prize nut. Also worth noting - THEORY HAS TO BE A WINNER! Each personew selected only gets one try, but it keeps going till someone does it!

Before I go on a rant and say this is a horrible idea, I'll give you a chance to explain how this helps grow the sport of pool in North America...long term.

Go.

 

[336Robin]

The Greatest Idea Since Sliced Bread

I thought I had some pretty good ideas based in what I consider the realities of the world that we live in today.

This afternoon I spent over 3 hrs talking to RealKingCobra about his ideas on how to bring Pool into a new day Renaissance. He had concepts that were grounded into the realities of the world that we live in and I see that although my ideas I consider will work, his go beyond the regular everyday and think way, way out of the box but honestly make perfect sense.

He would have the funds to cover it himself albeit some agreements that he has haven't matured the way he thought they would.

These ideas are his stock in trade and I guess he felt based on what I posted that I would understand and as the pieces unfolded it made sense and I understood. I will say this much about the plan the man laid out to me.

It is complete, down the last details. I asked a lot of questions, he had complete answers for every question. His plan puts room owners in the drivers seat and puts pool back in the hands of players. It puts pro players and amateurs not so far apart and gives a defined pathway to pro ranks. His payout scenarios are all inclusive and from what I heard are absolutely possible.

Were I a man of means I would definitely be willing to give this a go, because his plan is not greedy, its not jealous of others ability to earn in fact it passes money around and it keeps growing and getting better. I was completely impressed and I don't impress easily. It was easy to see how the results of his plan would make perfect sense to high level sponsors not necessarily Pool Products companies, the big ones, the really big ones.

At first I thought he came off as a smart ass but I found out this is one smart ass man. He's thought this out in finite detail.

I don't I know anyone that loves this game that wouldn't want to be counted in on this one. I think the man has a game changer in his back pocket just waiting for him to be able to pull the trigger. I already know some of you guys probably think hes out to prove how smart he is. He doesn't have to prove it, he's a guy with a lot of common everyday sense with an idea on how things should be. I have to agree. I think his plan could spin Pool around here in the United States and take us from stagnation into growth. That's my thoughts.

 

[Banks]

In my opinion, the only way to make pool self sustainable is similar to a pyramid scheme. I know, that sounds bad but in this case it's not.

As it is now, professionals are playing for each others money... so, there is no money. So, in order to get money into professional pool without waiting around for a sugar daddy is from the bottom.

Now, a lot might hear that and say "why should I be funding these professionals?" And it's a fair question. My thought is, it wouldn't take much from each amateur to build a lot for a small amount of professionals. The AMs have the numbers, so money adds up quickly. But, it cannot be a gift. There needs to be a reason. But more importantly, there needs to be a direct and clear path for an amateur to become a professional. And a clear cut definition of what a professional is. Be it a number, like APA or Fargo, but once you hit that number and stay at that number you're a pro.

The thought is, people would try to eventually grow through the ranks. Presently, there's no benefit for your APA, BCAPL, Fargo ratings to go up. It's actually probably better to keep them as low as you can get away with. With my idea, the higher your rating, the more you're playing for because again the lower levels are funning those above them. Trick would be, even at the bottom level, it needs to be worth it.

How does this happen? That's tricky. The easy answer is the BCAPL and APA join forces to not only improve pool but problem expand it and would in the end equal more money for all. Sadly, that will never happen so a new "league" would need to pop up and do a total take over. This explanation is really just a brief outline of what I've thought of and I'm positive it would work and profit.

You're on the right track.

People keep putting money into tables. The lowest of the amateurs included, it can all move up. Entries and added scaled to skill levels. Iow, a poolplayer take over of vending.

I'm at about 40 tables and counting to build a source of pool funding.

Here, people want to talk about tips and how much money they won't spend.

Ok, post again next year when the topic resurfaces.

 

[realkingcobra]

Of course there should be separation, but you needn't have a gimmicky test to do so.

Professional tournaments shouldn't have entry fees.

In order to not have entry fees, we need sponsors.

In order get sponsors, we need viewers.

In order to get viewers, we need a better game.

It's been said that personality sells, and while that's true to an extent, most of the best players are quite lacking in that department. So unless we plan on hiring a bunch of actors and teaching them how to play world class pool, I think fixing or even changing the game (*cough*snooker*cough*) should be first priority.

No need to change the game, just need to organize it.....and change how its played.....pretty simple if you ask me.

 

[BeiberLvr]

No need to change the game, just need to organize it.....and change how its played.....pretty simple if you ask me.

Without giving away your super awesome secrets, how exactly does changing how the game is organized bring more viewers?