Analyze This (Today's rant)

Matt_24

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do people sometimes over-analyze pool?

I hear so much about aiming systems, BHE, LD shafts, etc, etc. I mean, I've been on AZ for a long time and I've seen tons of threads/arguments/bannings over aiming system discussions. It is almost like people argueing over religion. Sometimes, you're not going to convert everyone to your belief system (but everyone can't accept that).

Whatever happened to people just learning to play on their own - through trial and error and see what develops. I've known a lot of great players who got good that way...and all had different styles.

Trying to teach people to play pool via one method is just......wrong in my book. I think you can point them in the right direction.....but everyone is so physically different....that they have to figure out certain things for themselves.

If people hit enough balls they can develop their own aiming system. If people experiment with different shots/angles/and english applications enough - they WILL learn how to run out, play shape, what is effecitve, what isn't....a good stroke, etc.

You want to learn a good stroke. Here is secret. WATCH BETTER PLAYERS. BUY ACCU-STATS. I learned so much from ESPN and Accu-stats it is ridiculous.

There is no magical short cut. It takes a lot of practice, hard work, experimentation, playing under pressure (yes, gambling...there I said it...you will become a better player if you gamble IMO) frequently.

I think people should play for at least 5 years doing this before they ever take a lesson. Why? Because once they take the lesson they will learn much quicker the theories behind different aiming systems, learning to "get in line", etc, etc.

I had a guy on here PM me the other day saying, "Do you still want to take that lesson you asked about last year?". Well, I won't call him out because he's a good guy....but I never inquired about a lesson from him. It almost felt like random, AZ, lesson-telemarketing, hahaha...

Matt_24<- Warning - Matt_24's writings are completed by an idiot or under the supervision of an idiot. Matt_24 insists that on one attempt recreatings these writings or activities. No plants or animals were injured during the writing of this rant.
 
It is a little overboard at times on here but it's all in the name of getting better and gaining a better understanding of what's happening on the pool table.

For example Mike Page put a video up on YouTube which talks about the half-ball hit. One thing he mentioned is that with the half ball hit the cueball and the object ball will travel just about exactly the same distance.

This is a huge realization and something I never thought about in 25 years of playing pool. This comes up A LOT when playing safe.

Tonight I won a set and at one critical juncture with just the 8 and 9 left on the table I used Mike Page's half-ball hit information to lay down a safety that ultimately won me the game.

So for all the bickering and nitpicking there is useful information that comes from it if you have the fortitude to wade through the rhetoric and insults.

Whatever happened to just playing and getting better on your own?

The internet happened.
 
JB Cases said:
It is a little overboard at times on here but it's all in the name of getting better and gaining a better understanding of what's happening on the pool table.

For example Mike Page put a video up on YouTube which talks about the half-ball hit. One thing he mentioned is that with the half ball hit the cueball and the object ball will travel just about exactly the same distance.

This is a huge realization and something I never thought about in 25 years of playing pool. This comes up A LOT when playing safe.

Tonight I won a set and at one critical juncture with just the 8 and 9 left on the table I used Mike Page's half-ball hit information to lay down a safety that ultimately won me the game.

So for all the bickering and nitpicking there is useful information that comes from it if you have the fortitude to wade through the rhetoric and insults.

Whatever happened to just playing and getting better on your own?

The internet happened.
Click to expand...

"The internet happened". You truly said a mouthful there. Great quote!
 
I read an interesting thing today when I returned from lunch:
Warning - Matt_24's writings are completed by an idiot or under the supervision of an idiot. Matt_24 insists that on one attempt recreatings these writings or activities. No plants or animals were injured during the writing of this rant.
 
You have a good point

Matt,

You have a good point that people can spend too much time trying to learn the technical aspects of pool and get sidetracked from learning the game. People can also wander around lost and confused for years, even a lifetime, trying to do it on their own.

My issue with lessons and schools is that to a certain extent they do turn out cookie cutter players. The pendulum stroke is one example. Watching old time players, even some current top players, most have the pendulum stroke in their arsenal but they also have a half-dozen more when the shot works better for them with a different stroke. The pendulum is easy to analyze, easy to teach, and fairly easy to correct. Therefore we are led to believe it is the only stroke of value, unless you are already a pro level player doing something different, then your way is just fine.

I think that the biggest mistake I made the last time I tried to come back to pool was throwing away the years of hard knocks and trying to learn a textbook game. I worked to get rid of "bad habits" now I watch the top regional players and pro's use my "bad habits" to win with and I am left with a game that is neither fish nor fowl.

Hu


Matt_24 said:
Do people sometimes over-analyze pool?

I hear so much about aiming systems, BHE, LD shafts, etc, etc. I mean, I've been on AZ for a long time and I've seen tons of threads/arguments/bannings over aiming system discussions. It is almost like people argueing over religion. Sometimes, you're not going to convert everyone to your belief system (but everyone can't accept that).

Whatever happened to people just learning to play on their own - through trial and error and see what develops. I've known a lot of great players who got good that way...and all had different styles.

Trying to teach people to play pool via one method is just......wrong in my book. I think you can point them in the right direction.....but everyone is so physically different....that they have to figure out certain things for themselves.

If people hit enough balls they can develop their own aiming system. If people experiment with different shots/angles/and english applications enough - they WILL learn how to run out, play shape, what is effecitve, what isn't....a good stroke, etc.

You want to learn a good stroke. Here is secret. WATCH BETTER PLAYERS. BUY ACCU-STATS. I learned so much from ESPN and Accu-stats it is ridiculous.

There is no magical short cut. It takes a lot of practice, hard work, experimentation, playing under pressure (yes, gambling...there I said it...you will become a better player if you gamble IMO) frequently.

I think people should play for at least 5 years doing this before they ever take a lesson. Why? Because once they take the lesson they will learn much quicker the theories behind different aiming systems, learning to "get in line", etc, etc.

I had a guy on here PM me the other day saying, "Do you still want to take that lesson you asked about last year?". Well, I won't call him out because he's a good guy....but I never inquired about a lesson from him. It almost felt like random, AZ, lesson-telemarketing, hahaha...

Matt_24<- Warning - Matt_24's writings are completed by an idiot or under the supervision of an idiot. Matt_24 insists that on one attempt recreatings these writings or activities. No plants or animals were injured during the writing of this rant.
Click to expand...
 
Ever discover a better route to travel to somewhere you've been going to for years? It has happened to me on a few occasions.

And so it is with pool. Noone can argue that your destination of being a good player can't be reached doing it your own way, but the faster route to becoming a great player is not so easy to find by instinct alone, and is far easier to find if you are in the midst of many that have traveled that path successfully. To me, that's what the forum is all about. Irving Crane said it takes two lifetimes to learn everything you need to know about pool. As each of us has but one, we must not squander time in the learning process.

The suggestion that we overanalyze, at times, on the forum is clearly reasonable, but my view is to keep my eyes and ears open, because I know that doing so will, on average, help me in the identification of the best path to achieving my goals in pool.
 
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My friend had been playing pool for 7-10 years. He got hooked a little and he goes to kick at the ball. I suggested a throw shot instead. He didn't know what it was. The theory had never been demonstrated to him so I showed him. He now does them all the time.

My point is that if he had read a book he would have been executing that shot from the get go.
 
Matt_24 said:
Do people sometimes over-analyze pool?

I hear so much about aiming systems, BHE, LD shafts, etc, etc. I mean, I've been on AZ for a long time and I've seen tons of threads/arguments/bannings over aiming system discussions. It is almost like people argueing over religion. Sometimes, you're not going to convert everyone to your belief system (but everyone can't accept that).

Whatever happened to people just learning to play on their own - through trial and error and see what develops. I've known a lot of great players who got good that way...and all had different styles.

Trying to teach people to play pool via one method is just......wrong in my book. I think you can point them in the right direction.....but everyone is so physically different....that they have to figure out certain things for themselves.

If people hit enough balls they can develop their own aiming system. If people experiment with different shots/angles/and english applications enough - they WILL learn how to run out, play shape, what is effecitve, what isn't....a good stroke, etc.

You want to learn a good stroke. Here is secret. WATCH BETTER PLAYERS. BUY ACCU-STATS. I learned so much from ESPN and Accu-stats it is ridiculous.

There is no magical short cut. It takes a lot of practice, hard work, experimentation, playing under pressure (yes, gambling...there I said it...you will become a better player if you gamble IMO) frequently.

I think people should play for at least 5 years doing this before they ever take a lesson. Why? Because once they take the lesson they will learn much quicker the theories behind different aiming systems, learning to "get in line", etc, etc.

I had a guy on here PM me the other day saying, "Do you still want to take that lesson you asked about last year?". Well, I won't call him out because he's a good guy....but I never inquired about a lesson from him. It almost felt like random, AZ, lesson-telemarketing, hahaha...

Matt_24<- Warning - Matt_24's writings are completed by an idiot or under the supervision of an idiot. Matt_24 insists that on one attempt recreatings these writings or activities. No plants or animals were injured during the writing of this rant.
Click to expand...

All good here, you make some excellent points Matt. I tend to agree with most of what you say with certain exceptions. Yes, definitely watch good players. In fact, find one who is physically like you to emulate his style. And then ask questions of any players that are willing to answer them. They can provide you with some short cuts in your learning experience.

Books, DVD's and lessons can be helpful as well. But there is nothing like getting on that table and hitting ball after ball until you get it right. My second book (yes, I said BOOK) will deal with a lot of this, and will touch on many subjects that have never been dealt with in any pool book.

One small example - Pool is NOT a game of mathematics, it is a game of touch and feel. You must develop a sensitivity for the shots. More to come in 2010!
 
I agree with you to an extent.....

There are some things that have to be taught right away if you don't want to try and get rid of bad habits later on.

If you find the right instructor, he will be able to know what you are capable of learning.

This is one of the reasons that I suggest not learning side english right away.

I recommend using BHE to learn side english, but I don't think that beginners or even intermediate players have any business using side english if they want to take the game seriously until they develop a good consistent stroke and speed control.


The fundamentals are something that needs to be learned right away if you want to achieve the best game you are capable of.
Jaden
 
Black-Balled said:
I read an interesting thing today when I returned from lunch:
Warning - Matt_24's writings are completed by an idiot or under the supervision of an idiot. Matt_24 insists that on one attempt recreatings these writings or activities. No plants or animals were injured during the writing of this rant.
Click to expand...
I would agree with that assesment...... um I mean I read that too :p
 
AGREE and DISAGREE!!!

You need to hit a million balls to be good at this game (unless you are phenom). But if you are hitting a million balls wrong and have NO idea why.........................you will never get any better.

If you can listen to multiple ideas and weed through them all to find what works best for you..................then play and ask everyone better than you. If not get an instructor and only listen to that person.

I prefer all of the above................I read, watch, listen, play, practice, practice, practice, play, coach, ask questions...........................etc..

However................there are so many players I see with "analysis paralysis"................just stuck in the analyzing mode. They haven't learned that analyzing your game is for practice and playing is time for playing!!!!

Mike
 
Matt_24 said:
I think people should play for at least 5 years doing this before they ever take a lesson. Why? Because once they take the lesson they will learn much quicker the theories behind different aiming systems, learning to "get in line", etc, etc.
Click to expand...

Good rant - I pretty much agree with all you've said except the above quote.

The time to learn the fundamentals - stroke, aiming, fundamentals of position play, touch - is "as soon as possible". I don't doubt that having the right instructor will help you learn these things and get you started on the right path. At the same time, I think instruction can only take you so far. The rest is table time and observing and competing against good players.

If you've played seriously for 5 years, you may find instruction frustrating. By then your habits are already ingrained and may work just fine for you. An instructor may want to tear you down and build you up again according to what he feels is best. Do you really want to be torn down after 5 years? Better it should happen early. Most of us past a certain age never had the benefit of early instruction. It would have helped. True, most of the greats never took a lesson, they just played a lot and watched a lot, tried hard to get better, and were fast learners. But they also lived pool day in and day out. Most cannot do that.

I really like what you said about people arguing over aiming systems (and other things) as if it were a religion. That's what I've observed too. The depth of feeling expressed over these things is a little, well, surprising. My attitude is: I don't believe in them, I don't believe they're the best way to learn how to pocket balls (I think it's trial and error), but hey, if it works for you, great. Live and let live.

One quote I've always found interesting. Bob Byrne once asked Luther Lassiter for a lesson. Lassiter responded "I don't give lessons because I don't know what I'm doing." Apparently he found what worked for him but didn't understand it beyond the fact that it worked.
 
"In the process of mastering a skill, there is an order".

"Learn from every shot by combining intuition with dedicated training and practice".

"It is often that great progress follows frustration".

"If you continue to do what you've always done. you'll get what you've always gotten".

"A lot of intermediate players focus solely on just playing. This type of focus actually retards the learning process".

"It's what we learn (after we know it all) that counts".

"Good players make great shots...great players don't".

"Train diligently, practice properly, your game will appear".

"The stop shot is possibly the most important shot to know, for it is the foundation of cueball control".

"The natural pendulum motion is the most effective movement for the pool stroke. This motion allows one to strike the cueball straighter, maintain precise cuetip position and maintain a consistent acceleration rate".

"All the competition in the world, can't replace the value of fifteen minutes of perfect practice".

"You must learn to accept change. Change is necessary for the improvement of your game. Be aware that there is always a tendency to fall back into your comfort zone. What feels good to you now may be due only to habit, not because it works".

Just a few little nuggets I picked up from pool school with Randy G. I thank God for you Randy.
 
I almost totally agree....

Big C said:
"In the process of mastering a skill, there is an order".

"Learn from every shot by combining intuition with dedicated training and practice".

"It is often that great progress follows frustration".

"If you continue to do what you've always done. you'll get what you've always gotten".

"A lot of intermediate players focus solely on just playing. This type of focus actually retards the learning process".

"It's what we learn (after we know it all) that counts".

"Good players make great shots...great players don't".



"Train diligently, practice properly, your game will appear".

"The stop shot is possibly the most important shot to know, for it is the foundation of cueball control".

"The natural pendulum motion is the most effective movement for the pool stroke. This motion allows one to strike the cueball straighter, maintain precise cuetip position and maintain a consistent acceleration rate".

"All the competition in the world, can't replace the value of fifteen minutes of perfect practice".

"You must learn to accept change. Change is necessary for the improvement of your game. Be aware that there is always a tendency to fall back into your comfort zone. What feels good to you now may be due only to habit, not because it works".

Just a few little nuggets I picked up from pool school with Randy G. I thank God for you Randy.
Click to expand...

This is the only one I don't agree with. I think that great players make great shots when they are left tough shots by opponents but leave themselves the best possible shot given the circumstances.

Jaden
 
jay helfert said:
All good here, you make some excellent points Matt. I tend to agree with most of what you say with certain exceptions. Yes, definitely watch good players. In fact, find one who is physically like you to emulate his style. And then ask questions of any players that are willing to answer them. They can provide you with some short cuts in your learning experience.

Books, DVD's and lessons can be helpful as well. But there is nothing like getting on that table and hitting ball after ball until you get it right. My second book (yes, I said BOOK) will deal with a lot of this, and will touch on many subjects that have never been dealt with in any pool book.

One small example - Pool is NOT a game of mathematics, it is a game of touch and feel. You must develop a sensitivity for the shots. More to come in 2010!
Click to expand...
Dang Jay! more to come in 2010? Does that mean you're sitting out the rest of 2009?
 
Jaden said:
This is the only one I don't agree with. I think that great players make great shots when they are left tough shots by opponents but leave themselves the best possible shot given the circumstances.

Jaden
Click to expand...
I'll agree with that sir! :thumbup:
 
philw said:
Dang Jay! more to come in 2010? Does that mean you're sitting out the rest of 2009?
Click to expand...


No, that means I'll be writing it this year. All I have right now is an outline and a pile of notes.
My first book is almost complete. It's in the final editing stages now and will go to print soon.
 
Black-Balled said:
I read an interesting thing today when I returned from lunch:
Warning - Matt_24's writings are completed by an idiot or under the supervision of an idiot. Matt_24 insists that on one attempt recreatings these writings or activities. No plants or animals were injured during the writing of this rant.
Click to expand...

I don't get it. Are you saying you want lessons? My price is $125 an hour....see you at Eddies.
 
jay helfert said:
All good here, you make some excellent points Matt. I tend to agree with most of what you say with certain exceptions. Yes, definitely watch good players. In fact, find one who is physically like you to emulate his style. And then ask questions of any players that are willing to answer them. They can provide you with some short cuts in your learning experience.

Books, DVD's and lessons can be helpful as well. But there is nothing like getting on that table and hitting ball after ball until you get it right. My second book (yes, I said BOOK) will deal with a lot of this, and will touch on many subjects that have never been dealt with in any pool book.

One small example - Pool is NOT a game of mathematics, it is a game of touch and feel. You must develop a sensitivity for the shots. More to come in 2010!
Click to expand...

At least someone agrees me with...so nyahhh...nyahhh..nyahh...(yes, I just said nyahhh..nyahhh..nyahhh) REP to Jay for his high IQ....(can I get a free autographed copy of both your books?)
 
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