Another controversy with Mike Dechaine. This is beyond imagination...

sjm said:
I was front row for this match and the cue ball did hit the magic rack which was leaning over the front rail. I saw it and a few other fans vouched for it having happened. Grabe denied it, but he was in the wrong here.

The referee, not present for the shot, explicitly under the rules as written, has the right to solicit input from spectators in this situation. Bob Jewett, often cited as the single greatest authority on the rules, looked up the rule and confirmed this. Bob himself made this ruling, in collabotion with head referee Karl Kantowitz.

Personally, I don't care for the rule that says that this is foul, and Mike did not call the foul. All he did was request a ruling, and this is how it was adjudicated.

My opinion is that Grabe should have called a foul on himself here.

If the entire story is to be told here, Grabe made some extremely inappropriate remarks suggesting that had input been solicited from European onlookers, they might have backed him up, ane that Mike was getting a hometown call. He openly questioned the integrity of both the referees and the fans and Karl Kanrtowitz gave him a sportsmanship warning which was, in my opinion, well deserved. It didn't sink in, though, as Grabe found it fitting to talk to Mike while Mike was shooting in the subsequent rack. Mike took exception, but did so with civility and good sportsmanship, and Grabe kept quiet for the remainder of the match.

Mike conducted himsel impeccably, and only the worst Dechaine haters would've Been inclined to find fault with him here.

Let the truth be know.

Incidentally, Dechaine won this match by breaking and running the last three racks, which is to say went out and got it.

Grabe is a wonderful player who was unlucky here, but he also got way out of line and ought to apologize to Mike.
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Well put, SJM, thanks for the input. I watched Mike's match against Hsu and I thought he handled himself very well, professionally and with poise, when, what I call, the crap happens in pool, rolls were mostly against him.
 
Simple solution after the fact

Get rid of the stupid magic whatever the junk is and rack the balls like mosconi racked them or anyone else.....too many get rich quick gimmick garbage entering the game. And while I am on a rant expecting to get blistered.....put the front ball on the spot where it belongs. Players should have enough honor to call a foul on themselves when they see it. And everyone should go out and buy a break cue, a jump cue, 30 playing cues, and ten thousand dollars worth of leather cases, and magic chalk, and shooting gloves and wrap your arm in duct tape.......and on and on and on......puke!
 
HelloBaby- said:
Another opinion, just opinion :)

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That is bar league thinking....a snooker ref is allowed to ask the audience for opinions...
...the ref still makes the final decisions.
That's how a game is run that produces millionaires....can we learn from it?

At the famous Rack in Detroit....the spectators were often asked "did anybody see it?"
....and the call was made...no arguing.
 
pt109 said:
I was wondering when this was going to happen....a lot of players are careless with the
racking template.

I like how snooker handles it...
..a ball hitting a foreign object is a foul.
(and it doesn't matter who left the template hanging)
...it is up to each player to see that the table is in order on his turn.
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Works for me. Those who would argue that this style of rack is sometimes left on the table and there should be no difference etc. are off base. I like the simplicity of the snooker approach.
 
alstl said:
Two questions:

1. Is it even a foul? Isn't the magic rack commonly left on the table until balls are cleared away from it and the cue ball frequently "touches" the rack? Isn't that the whole idea behind the magic rack - balls can "touch" it without causing a problem?

2. Who racked and put the template on the rail?
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Those are both two very interesting points, especially the first one. The magic rack is hit constantly when it is on the table, and more than once in this event I have seen it greatly alter the path of a ball.

On the rail the ball hitting the rack will cause next to no effect on the actual path of a ball whatsoever.

That said a lot of the pros were being rather flippant with putting the magic rack on the rail and having the edge over on the table. Maybe I am jus too OCD but I noticed every time it as placed somewhere it could actually be contacted by a ball and I would have likely put the thing off to the side on a pole like many of the pros did so it is out of the way.
 
pt109 said:
That is bar league thinking....a snooker ref is allowed to ask the audience for opinions...
...the ref still makes the final decisions.
That's how a game is run that produces millionaires....can we learn from it?

At the famous Rack in Detroit....the spectators were often asked "did anybody see it?"
....and the call was made...no arguing.
Click to expand...

Oh come on PT Johan Ruysink is a totally unbiased, remember him urging all those Euro fans to show respect to the American team when they were at the table during the Mosconi Cup? Neither do I.
 
How about a rule about taking the template AWAY/OFF the table? How about a ref on every table? Why am I wasting my typing finger!!. Johnnyt
 
Why was the template even sitting on the table. When removed from the playing surface, put it over on the table where the cues are sitting.
 
How do you feel about what Karl Boyes did to Shannon Daulton? Just curious since you make this an American thing?

HelloBaby- said:
From Denis Grabe FB:

That's sick!!!!!!! 7-4 im leading and dechaine tells the rack was over the cushion and the white ball touched the rack after hitting?!? The ref comes and says i did not see but the audience can decide, what u think if 95% of the audience is american what they said of course a foul, if theres no ref how can 70year old guys with glasses who dont even know rules call a foul on me ?!?!? Dechaine cant win honestly only cheating!!!!
Then he comes to 7-7 i go to 10-7 and he misses combo 7-9 leaves me hooked and that was the last shot i got.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited... new evidence showed up.

Still unsportsmanship for me, but probably not cheating.
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PhilosopherKing said:
I'd bet the ball hit the rack. I'd also bet that the spectators were 100% honest and would have been so had the players' roles been reversed.
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I would bet it did too, I was shocked he would ask the audience for the ruling unless someone working for the tournament was present.
 
Yes Sir!

jay helfert said:
I NEVER ask the audience or anyone in it to decide anything! I agree with Denis that's the wrong way to handle something like this. There are other ways to make a ruling like this and it begins with talking to each player separately. Sometimes a warning is in order. A good official must be able to use good judgement in the interest of fair play.

P.S. the rack is paper thin and just touching the edge of it would not alter the path of a ball. JUDGEMENT!
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I have to agree.
 
I noticed Bergman wearing a pretty lose shirt. This is all balls foul. I guess the next debate could be over someones shirt touching a ball. Silly fouls but all the players know them. If I were Justin I would be wearing a tighter shirt.
 
pt109 said:
That is bar league thinking....a snooker ref is allowed to ask the audience for opinions...
...the ref still makes the final decisions.
That's how a game is run that produces millionaires....can we learn from it?

At the famous Rack in Detroit....the spectators were often asked "did anybody see it?"
....and the call was made...no arguing.
Click to expand...


A Snooker ref is allowed to ask the audience for opinions, hahaha dream on!
What movie did you watch...

MH
 
Why is the magic rack ever left on the playing surface? If a ball rests on it they can mark the ball and lift it. would it not be a foul every time someone hits a ball over it when its on the table? as the rules are written. It seems lazy to me that its left there when 99.9% of the time there isn't even a ball close to being sitting on it.
 
King T said:
What if it happened and he didn't see it??? Cant call him a cheat if he didn't see it.
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According to sjm's firsthand account:

"I was front row for this match and the cue ball did hit the magic rack which was leaning over the front rail. I saw it and a few other fans vouched for it having happened. Grabe denied it, but he was in the wrong here."

How could Grabe deny that the cueball touched the rack if he didn't see whether or not it touched the rack?
 
PoolBum said:
According to sjm's firsthand account:

"I was front row for this match and the cue ball did hit the magic rack which was leaning over the front rail. I saw it and a few other fans vouched for it having happened. Grabe denied it, but he was in the wrong here."

How could Grabe deny that the cueball touched the rack if he didn't see whether or not it touched the rack?
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I would trust SJM's call....don't need anybody else.
 
sjm said:
I was front row for this match and the cue ball did hit the magic rack which was leaning over the front rail. I saw it and a few other fans vouched for it having happened. Grabe denied it, but he was in the wrong here.

The referee, not present for the shot, explicitly under the rules as written, has the right to solicit input from spectators in this situation. Bob Jewett, often cited as the single greatest authority on the rules, looked up the rule and confirmed this. Bob himself made this ruling, in collabotion with head referee Karl Kantowitz.

Personally, I don't care for the rule that says that this is foul, and Mike did not call the foul. All he did was request a ruling, and this is how it was adjudicated.

My opinion is that Grabe should have called a foul on himself here.

If the entire story is to be told here, Grabe made some extremely inappropriate remarks suggesting that had input been solicited from European onlookers, they might have backed him up, ane that Mike was getting a hometown call. He openly questioned the integrity of both the referees and the fans and Karl Kanrtowitz gave him a sportsmanship warning which was, in my opinion, well deserved. It didn't sink in, though, as Grabe found it fitting to talk to Mike while Mike was shooting in the subsequent rack. Mike took exception, but did so with civility and good sportsmanship, and Grabe kept quiet for the remainder of the match.

Mike conducted himsel impeccably, and only the worst Dechaine haters would've Been inclined to find fault with him here.

Let the truth be know.

Incidentally, Dechaine won this match by breaking and running the last three racks, which is to say went out and got it.

Grabe is a wonderful player who was unlucky here, but he also got way out of line and ought to apologize to Mike.
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Your word is good enough for me. I wish they would just make you an honorary official for the TV table and be done with it. You would have a great view of the matches you want to see and there would be no questions about decisions. It's a win/win for everyone.
 
BRussell said:
Mike called this on him. Let's not try to say he was "asking for a ruling" or something. Let's just call it for what it was. He's allowed to do that, but we're also allowed to judge the nittiness of him calling it.
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Have to agree. Asking for a ruling is identical to saying "ref, I want to call a foul on this if it is a foul, I just don't know for sure yet if it is in fact a foul so can you let me know so I can have the foul enforced if it is one?".
 
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