That is a cool thread. Thanks!
* Your Pro Pool Clinic with Tom Kennedy, Matt Sherman *
- Thread starter BilliardsAbout
- Start date
Welcome to social media. Subjects tend to get off track quickly
Wrong again. I have no fear of being proved wrong. It's happened quite a bit to me on here. I view it as -- sort of a part of the learning process. I don't think instructors need to be world beaters on the table by any means, but there's a minimum level of proficiency they must possess in order to validate their methods. I suspect you don't reach this level.
I think we have learned an awful lot about you. One of the very best ways to get to know someone is to read their words. I've read plenty of yours over the years and they don't paint the picture you think they do.
Where are you playing these days? I know you live near me…who has the best tables these days? Strokers is about the only other place than my usual room that I’ve been to, any other Gold Crowns around? It seems like I haven’t played in months, but thats normal during tarpon season.
Bankshots in Dunedin has all Gold Crowns. They keep them in pretty good shape but I still prefer Strokers. If you ever want to hit some around let me know.
We are indeed off the OP now, which is fine, such is life.
Here is a sample from my Pro Pool Clinic, maybe ten minutes including students getting coached by TK and me. It's not some big secret but my "hidden tip gap fix" can improve a game significantly, quickly. This is a method of my invention, so if you adapt it for your students, please credit me. Thank you.
TIP GAPS
Dr. Dave (I believe it was Dr. Dave) coined a key term, tip gap, describing the distance between the cue stick's tip and the cue ball at address. As discussed at AZ, most pros address most shots with a tip gap of an inch or less. The bigger an amateur's gap, obviously, the less likely they are to strike the cue ball accurately.
Gaps are in other stick-and-ball sports, too. Baseball has a "bat gap" (players who won't cover home plate because they are afraid of being hit by a pitch and have to lunge with the bat). Golfers have "club gaps" (pros are consistent at address in having their club face close to the ball for most shots, amateurs have to lunge for the ball and are inconsistent in club placement).
ISSUE
I've noticed a hidden tip gap, if you will, that affects a surprising number of amateurs. You can observe this at a local poolroom in others. Amateurs tend to stand further from the cue ball than pros. Weaker players bring the cue down far from the cue ball, and close the large tip gap thus created with their stroke arm, which ruins their arm position (you can see them cover the distance with practice strokes sometimes, they practice stroke closer and closer to the cue ball, without realizing they are subtly or greatly compromising their stroke arm position).
Stronger players will be further back too, but often the stronger players slide their bridge hand forward after their hand first touches the cloth. (Try it for yourself, when not consciously moving the stroke hand but sliding the bridge hand forward along the cloth, you can feel the cue stick trying to tug your stroke hand a short distance forward.)
Pros of course, stand closer to the cue ball to begin. Years ago, I forced myself through practice to get right on that cue ball, almost close enough to foul it. It's actually a good drill for some, get right down on the cue ball until your ferrule is going to hit the cue ball from above, then back off a bit and get right in there, up close. (Again, that's for some, many AZ readers are stronger players than students not visiting AZ.)
FOLLOW-UP
When I see students who stand too far from the cue ball, I get them to fix the issue without their stroke or bridge hand, but by standing closer to the shot. Most students dislike standing closer and say they feel hemmed in, less able to stroke freely. With persistence, in a few minutes they see the benefits and also feel more comfortable:
* They have a more consistent stance and distance from the cue ball as opposed to closer or further depending on the day (and therefore different stroke angles with their arms day-to-day)--standing closer at a consistent distance helps with ease of stroke and also to a small degree, aim
* They can stroke softer as above, while getting better action on the cue ball than before (more compact movement, more efficiency of movement, more accurate cue ball contact as they actually hit where they aim on the cue ball)
* I don't have to tell them "stop lunging" as the lunge is usually gone on its own--they are hitting the cue ball more accurately where they aim it by simply stroking through the space where the cue ball rests (put differently, I encounter students with nice fundamentals except they are stroking where the cue ball isn't (!) then they look good hitting the cue ball by standing closer to it)
SUMMARY
Other than weightlifting or karate for power breaks, there are few pro techniques students cannot copy--knowledge is key. Most amateurs stand far off the cue ball (fear of fouling the cue ball with a practice stroke, like a golf waggle knocking the golf ball from the tee? desire to leverage and power through the shot, rather than smoothly time the stroke?) but standing closer makes a big difference for many.
Perhaps ten minutes to explain to a student and then coach them to stand closer effectively. Shot making is typically improved enough to take someone up a full APA handicap point as they improve in matches going forward. Really. Someone standing six inches closer to the cue ball will see solid improvement in cue ball control and shot making, immediately. And this shows up in the weeks following in league and they get a higher handicap than before.
Thank you.
Here is a sample from my Pro Pool Clinic, maybe ten minutes including students getting coached by TK and me. It's not some big secret but my "hidden tip gap fix" can improve a game significantly, quickly. This is a method of my invention, so if you adapt it for your students, please credit me. Thank you.
TIP GAPS
Dr. Dave (I believe it was Dr. Dave) coined a key term, tip gap, describing the distance between the cue stick's tip and the cue ball at address. As discussed at AZ, most pros address most shots with a tip gap of an inch or less. The bigger an amateur's gap, obviously, the less likely they are to strike the cue ball accurately.
Gaps are in other stick-and-ball sports, too. Baseball has a "bat gap" (players who won't cover home plate because they are afraid of being hit by a pitch and have to lunge with the bat). Golfers have "club gaps" (pros are consistent at address in having their club face close to the ball for most shots, amateurs have to lunge for the ball and are inconsistent in club placement).
ISSUE
I've noticed a hidden tip gap, if you will, that affects a surprising number of amateurs. You can observe this at a local poolroom in others. Amateurs tend to stand further from the cue ball than pros. Weaker players bring the cue down far from the cue ball, and close the large tip gap thus created with their stroke arm, which ruins their arm position (you can see them cover the distance with practice strokes sometimes, they practice stroke closer and closer to the cue ball, without realizing they are subtly or greatly compromising their stroke arm position).
Stronger players will be further back too, but often the stronger players slide their bridge hand forward after their hand first touches the cloth. (Try it for yourself, when not consciously moving the stroke hand but sliding the bridge hand forward along the cloth, you can feel the cue stick trying to tug your stroke hand a short distance forward.)
Pros of course, stand closer to the cue ball to begin. Years ago, I forced myself through practice to get right on that cue ball, almost close enough to foul it. It's actually a good drill for some, get right down on the cue ball until your ferrule is going to hit the cue ball from above, then back off a bit and get right in there, up close. (Again, that's for some, many AZ readers are stronger players than students not visiting AZ.)
FOLLOW-UP
When I see students who stand too far from the cue ball, I get them to fix the issue without their stroke or bridge hand, but by standing closer to the shot. Most students dislike standing closer and say they feel hemmed in, less able to stroke freely. With persistence, in a few minutes they see the benefits and also feel more comfortable:
* They have a more consistent stance and distance from the cue ball as opposed to closer or further depending on the day (and therefore different stroke angles with their arms day-to-day)--standing closer at a consistent distance helps with ease of stroke and also to a small degree, aim
* They can stroke softer as above, while getting better action on the cue ball than before (more compact movement, more efficiency of movement, more accurate cue ball contact as they actually hit where they aim on the cue ball)
* I don't have to tell them "stop lunging" as the lunge is usually gone on its own--they are hitting the cue ball more accurately where they aim it by simply stroking through the space where the cue ball rests (put differently, I encounter students with nice fundamentals except they are stroking where the cue ball isn't (!) then they look good hitting the cue ball by standing closer to it)
SUMMARY
Other than weightlifting or karate for power breaks, there are few pro techniques students cannot copy--knowledge is key. Most amateurs stand far off the cue ball (fear of fouling the cue ball with a practice stroke, like a golf waggle knocking the golf ball from the tee? desire to leverage and power through the shot, rather than smoothly time the stroke?) but standing closer makes a big difference for many.
Perhaps ten minutes to explain to a student and then coach them to stand closer effectively. Shot making is typically improved enough to take someone up a full APA handicap point as they improve in matches going forward. Really. Someone standing six inches closer to the cue ball will see solid improvement in cue ball control and shot making, immediately. And this shows up in the weeks following in league and they get a higher handicap than before.
Thank you.
Last edited:
Are you going to tell me the level or should I guess it? Do you have a Fargo number you respect or . . . ?
I trust God, all else bring data.
Speaking of data, by the way--and I'm not trying to add fuel here, the more so since I don't ever remember arguing with you before, and remember agreeing with many of your posts here over the years--your recent post is self-contradictory, "We have no idea how well you play, but we've gotten to know an awful lot about you."
I'm pointing this out to say how indefensible a position that is for me. But! I've posted a sample from my pool clinic above, for your review and consideration.
Last edited:
I too trust God, all else post videos. You won't.Are you going to tell me the level or should I guess it? Do you have a Fargo number you respect or . . . ?
I trust God, all else bring data.
You either have reading comprehension issues or are being purposely deceptive, like usual. We've learned A LOT about you the person, mainly how you stretch and run from the truth...like very often. More than anyone else I've encountered on AZ. There's not even a close 2nd place! We've also learned you get A LOT about pool wrong. Of course we know nothing about you as a player because you've kept that a big secret for a couple decades.
I've already considered your clinic and made my conclusion.
That's an interesting question.
I certainly agree you don't need to be a world beater in order to teach at a pretty high level. But you do need to be capable and a lot of it depends on the level that they're trying to "teach".
A 550+ player can certainly get your average lower-rated league player moving in the right direction, but he's not likely to be any help to somebody who's already playing at 600+ level.
I would think that anybody with aspirations to being much help to the seriously good crowd...call it 675+, should probably be at least close to 700 speed himself.
Do you have a Fargo?
I find one Matt Sherman in Fargo but he's established out of Minnesota. Is that you? I can't find any other variations of the name, but I could certainly be missing something.
Just for reference, Minnesota Matt comes in at 642. A solid player to be sure, but probably not somebody that should be charging for "lessons".
Again, I'm not picking. Just curious at this point.
Thanks
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Probably true on the first point for helping guys with fargos over 675, tho I'm around the low 600s and have helped guys who play above 680. They rare tho as their techniques is usually on lock by then and are mostly looking for nuances of the game type stuff that only a top player can really teach them (these guys were more interested in techniques and teaching practices). As far as mechanics go tho, even Mickey Kraus was talking about the lack of stability under pressure in his stance after he got bounced from the World 9b this year and how it was something to work on with a coach. A good mechanics coach can help him lock down joints in a very repeatable, stable manner, even if their FR is 200 points lower than his.
As far as charging for lessons, check out the PBIA Master Instructor list.... a lot of 500s on there and a cpl in 400s. The effectiveness of an instructor comes from how much better they can make the student not how much better they can play than the student.
Last edited:
I definitely agree about needing to be proficient in what you teach. I will say that I paid for lessons from Scott Lee and they were very helpful. I don't think he could beat me playing pool though.
So you won't answer any of my direct questions and accuse me of not answering others' questions. How convenient for you.
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Perfect example. An instructor can help those who can play better than them. I'm sure everyone on the Mosconi Cup team can slap Johan around at will and yet they all credit him with helping them. While the player is working on his game and putting in many hours, the instructor is pouring his/her energy into study and developing techniques to aid student learning. I know I have knowledge of the body and motor-control that can help even elite players gain a better understanding of what is happening when they are 'on' vs not. Sometimes it is a matter of making them consciously aware of something they do very well at a subconscious level...just not all the time.
I'm also in Florida, in Gainesville, and not Minnesota.
Not to prop myself up, but I've had students come to me disappointed getting lessons from top pros (not 675-700+), top touring pros. Or, I can be more blunt, their lessons stunk up the place. I had a fellow paying $250 for an hour each month to a top female pro for YEARS and he had trouble running two balls. But he sure liked hanging out in his private room, spending time with her. And he sure wasn't interested in lessons from someone who wasn't a top pro. I call that pride and not wisdom. We used his room and he watched when a friend booked himself and another friend for a lesson, meaning I taught and coached all three, and two of them loved what I shared (I've stayed at the inviting fellow's home as a guest) and you guessed it--the guy being taught by the pro argued with most of the concepts I shared. I consider myself a skilled communicator and teacher, but this guy didn't even want to hit the shots/methods I diplomatically suggested because I wasn't "da greatest on Earth".
Now, I do agree with your comments. I have done limited coaching for pros and top amateurs. Of course, when I do--or when you do--it's mostly looking at fundamentals and patterns. I'm not going to show them something they didn't already know.
But some of this is moot to me, because "the seriously good crowd" as you wrote take even fewer lessons than most amateurs. Pool is quite underserved--not through the fault of teachers--seems like most league players get "lessons" for free from their fellow league "experts". Yuck.
The good crowd needs coaching mostly, not teaching, right? I don't bill myself as a coach except for students who want to go next level. For example, after ten lessons over a few months, I do free check-ins to monitor progress with someone who wants to advance further.
May I ask a question? I'm NOT trying to debate you, but you wrote "A 550+ player can certainly get your average lower-rated league player moving in the right direction, but he's not likely to be any help to somebody who's already playing at 600+ level." Have you seen a 500's teacher fail before by teaching a 600's player?
Human nature (and lack of a mirror) has us pointing to faults in others we have ourselves. I see it in local leagues often, like "Hold still when you stroke" from a guy with ants in his pants. Those who can't do can often teach better IMHO.
There's absolutely no doubt, that there are some very good players who simply can't teach.
But again, in order to teach I think there needs to be at least a base level competency, again depending on the level of the teaching. And I think that level of competence needs to be higher if somebody reports to "teach" professionally.
at some point, you need to be able to effectively and consistently demonstrate much of what you're trying to teach.
I'm a 550 banger. I can help lower rated league players pretty easily, but that's as much helping them with more strategic/mental aspects of the game as it is with physical play. And I certainly wouldn't consider asking for somebody's hard earned money for my barely competent two cents worth.
I agree.
Having said that, in order for a "professional teacher" to demonstrate that their instruction is likely to be more effective than somebody like me, don't you need to have some level of overt competency that you can demonstrate?
Telling a banger that you can help them if you can't demonstrate that you can play at a reasonable level yourself, isn't likely to get them to trust you enough to open their wallet.
again, you don't need to be a world beater, but you need to be able to get around the table…
I know that, but sometimes people establish their rating and then subsequently moved elsewhere.
Back to the original question though, and again out of curiosity, do you have a Fargo? What's your level play?
Thanks.
May I ask a question? I'm NOT trying to debate you, but you wrote "A 550+ player can certainly get your average lower-rated league player moving in the right direction, but he's not likely to be any help to somebody who's already playing at 600+ level." Have you seen a 500's teacher fail before by teaching a 600's player?
Human nature (and lack of a mirror) has us pointing to faults in others we have ourselves. I see it in local leagues often, like "Hold still when you stroke" from a guy with ants in his pants. Those who can't do can often teach better IMHO.
I guess it depends on what you mean by a "500's teacher".
I've certainly offered an observation to a better player (If I know them well and know they won't be offended) and have benefited from that type of observation from less skilled players than myself. In those cases, I think we all take the observation in the spirit that it was intended but understand that it may or may not actually be true and/or helpful.
But I think there's a huge difference between offering somebody an observation and purporting to be a professional instructor/teacher.
Which brings me right back around to my original point there there needs to be a certain level of playing competence for someone to instruct professionally. And I think most students, regardless of their level of play, want to see some evidence of that competence before committing their time and money.
You're also involved with golf. Just about the entire membership of the PGA Tour has a golf instructor working with them to improve their swing or get them out of some bad habits they developed over time. Name one instructor that can play as good as the player they're instructing or used to play as good when they were younger. I can think of a couple who played on the PGA tour, Butch Harmon (1 year/1 win) and Bob Toski (leading money winner on tour '54 https://www.pgatour.com/player/02208/bob-toski and that's about it. None of the rest.
Stan Shuffett has a current Fargo rating of 725 and gets wasted on THIS forum by a crew that don't even have a Fargo rating or play in any kind of tournaments at any level. He also has the highest rank in the PBIA, Master Instructor. Makes a lot of sense, huh?
The PBIA recognizes four levels of instructors:
- RECOGNIZED Instructor (Level 1)
- CERTIFIED Instructor (Level 2)
- ADVANCED Instructor (Level 3)
- MASTER Instructor (Level 4)
Last edited:
I agree with all you wrote.
I've been asked to post some play as a video, I think it's a good idea and plan to video my next outing, likely next Tuesday night. (I do not have a Fargo score.)
The only modification I would make to your post is my actual experience, I'm not a world-beater but I do more than observe, I get paid for lessons. I'm not doing lessons full time, but I get paid well and my students improve--some of the flames on this thread came because, apparently, it's impossible that I can possibly teach students to improve fast. The flames mostly came from non-teachers (of course).
I'd like others to take careful note, I post under my own name, not an avatar. I offer recent pro, student and teacher references--but will not post contact info on a thread, send a PM--and I love teaching so much, I'd rather do a free lesson and have you walk away than miss out, so anyone wanting more of the kind of thing I've posted above (tip gap fix) is welcome!
Tom Kennedy is teaching a clinic with me next month. I've done similar with Tom Rossman, Dom Esposito, Steve Lillis, Mike Massey, etc.
Last edited:
Absolutely true.
Having said that, most of those top swing coaches can still get around the course pretty well. There aren't any mid-500's Fargo equivalent golf instructors out there doing anything other than giving junior clinics at the local Muni course during the summer.
In fact, in order to even enter the PGA apprenticeship program you have to complete a player competency test under tournament conditions.
It's also worth mentioning that golf is a much more difficult sport to play at any level and professional golf instruction has risen to extraordinary levels in and of itself. With some very notable exceptions, the same simply can't be said for much of pool.
I hear that!
And please know I'm NOT trying to pick an argument with you, but I get the general point. A pro golf teacher, especially one coaching the big stars, likely plays at scratch or near scratch.
I'm not some pool shortstop and I also have a--a whaddya call-it--oh yes, a life! (Meaning I play a couple of hours a month at most.) But I think I'd have the highest handicaps if returning to local leagues after time away (I used to have the high handicaps and also run and referee some local leagues) and the top sticks match up with me for casual play here in Gainesville.
And for another thing, Stan knows what he's doing and turned his son into a great player, too.
Last edited:
By the way, a little taste of the joint clinic with TK is in this post: https://forums.azbilliards.com/thre...nedy-matt-sherman.553972/page-14#post-7563564