Another tip...

[Mikjary]

Here is a thread where one of the greatest bank pool players to draw a breath gives advice to internet tough guys, and the internet tough guys tell the bank pool champion that he is wrong.

If you think Mr. Brumback is in error here, simply empty your retirement account, go to the 2015 DCC, and match up a bank pool game with your $500.00.

I just got back from the tournament in Olathe, KS. And basically to a man, every super high level player there held the cue towards the very back, and had a relatively long bridge. Mr. Brumback is giving out great advice to those who aspire to play pool at a high level.

I for one, eagerly await all of Mr. Brumback's "Tips from a Pro", and I take them to heart. I have already improved my game with his last one.

So I would like to thank Mr. Brumback for putting his knowledge out there, and I hope he continues to do it, as I value it immensely.

kollegedave

but...but..., Dave, what if Wille Mosconi came back from the dead (or you just read in one of his books) that the key to pool was 1.) a grip 3-6" behind your cue's balance point and 2.) a bridge no more that 8" in length?

Lou Figueroa

Sports evolve, techniques change and the players get better. If Willie was a kid shooting today, you can bet he would be a top player with a more modern, up to date technique. He'd benefit from the info on the net and all the other media available to him.

Dave put up some valid observations. I'd like to hear more from John Brumback without the usual detractors jumping in. Same ones every time, saving us from being led down the path. Kind of like Big Brother watching over you. I have a hard time thinking for myself.

I understand the goal is to maintain the status quo by snide comments and derailing threads, cut by cut. You don't really have to disagree with the pro, you just have to make a joke or clever comment to get the derail started. We all know how a train wreck happens. And thanks again, all you considerate posters out there that make sure the internet is safe for all of us here on AZB.

Best,
Mike

 

[lfigueroa]

Here is a thread where one of the greatest bank pool players to draw a breath gives advice to internet tough guys, and the internet tough guys tell the bank pool champion that he is wrong.

If you think Mr. Brumback is in error here, simply empty your retirement account, go to the 2015 DCC, and match up a bank pool game with your $500.00.

I just got back from the tournament in Olathe, KS. And basically to a man, every super high level player there held the cue towards the very back, and had a relatively long bridge. Mr. Brumback is giving out great advice to those who aspire to play pool at a high level.

I for one, eagerly await all of Mr. Brumback's "Tips from a Pro", and I take them to heart. I have already improved my game with his last one.

So I would like to thank Mr. Brumback for putting his knowledge out there, and I hope he continues to do it, as I value it immensely.

kollegedave

Dave, I got the observational part of your post but I also got the part where you appear to chastise “internet tough guys” merely for disagreeing with John.

The point I was making was that voicing an opinion different from John’s does not make one an internet tough guy, or automatically invalidate those opinions, particularly when they mirror advice voiced by legendary champions like Mosconi, Lassiter, Crane, Balsis, and on and on. And you, of all people, should be fully aware that suggesting those that disagree with John should play him for money is the worst kind of argument.

Mosconi was not an exception, in fact he was part of an entire generation of players that played in that style. It is also interesting to note that in perusing the most recent issue of BD, photos show that at least two modern day international players, who happened to have just won the recent China Open -- Han Yun and Yu-Lung Chang -- appear to be deploying a very Mosconi-like set up complete with a short bridge and grip.

So who is right? The shortstops in Olathe? Or the international level guys?

Or maybe one size, one approach, does not fit all. YMMV. As much as your runs have gone up lately, maybe they would go up higher with a shorter bridge and grip

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Sports evolve, techniques change and the players get better. If Willie was a kid shooting today, you can bet he would be a top player with a more modern, up to date technique. He'd benefit from the info on the net and all the other media available to him.

Dave put up some valid observations. I'd like to hear more from John Brumback without the usual detractors jumping in. Same ones every time, saving us from being led down the path. Kind of like Big Brother watching over you. I have a hard time thinking for myself.

I understand the goal is to maintain the status quo by snide comments and derailing threads, cut by cut. You don't really have to disagree with the pro, you just have to make a joke or clever comment to get the derail started. We all know how a train wreck happens. And thanks again, all you considerate posters out there that make sure the internet is safe for all of us here on AZB.

Best,
Mike

Voicing other opinions, particularly when there is evidence for valid counter-point, does not make one a detractor (despite your usual hand-wringing

Lou Figueroa

 

[Mikjary]

Voicing other opinions, particularly when there is evidence for valid counter-point, does not make one a detractor (despite your usual hand-wringing

Lou Figueroa

I welcome your opinions, Lou. You've been off the block a couple of times and have the experience to know what you're talking about. Sometimes, your sarcasm gets old. I know, because I'm very sarcastic and get smacked by people around me, all the time. Takes one to know one.

Since the Pinoy invasion, less players are using the traditional 14.1 setup. I played a lot of straights in the day and adopted a "Willie" stroke, since he was the go to technique in pool.

Later, I started playing 9 ball and found I needed more power to move the cue ball. I changed to a longer bridge and moved my back hand towards the butt. Today, if I play 14.1, I do shorten up my bridge an inch or two. It's easier to control my speed with less stroke.

When I play banks, I use a longer bridge, but use a different stroke. In a 9 ball game, the stroke's similar depending on the position needed. So, as you can see, I've adapted to the newer, faster game and can miss balls with either method. But I look good doing it!

Best,
Mike

 

[John Brumback]

My tips are only my opinion. IMO I don't think there are many facts to playing pool. I can handle the disagreements just fine ( I might learn something every now and then too,I try). After all it is just a game that we all like to play. I don't mean to step on any toes and I don't mean to offend anyone either. So proceed with caution with my tips is all I can say,(some of them might be wrong for some or might not work for some).I just try to give my perspective on certain things when maybe I really shouldn't. But I have been having fun reading all the comments and hangin out here some lately. Thanks,John Brumback

 

[Pidge]

Its bad times when you have to start posting cautions messages warning people it may not work for them on an internet forum. I could understand if say someone was selling a vacuum cleaner and posted with a warning of "CAUTION - inserting any protruding body parts may result in hospitalization and the ability to no longer have children". Its just ridiculous.

If advice is offered from anyone, be it John, the local C player or a top instructor known around the country you wouldn't just jump in whole heartedly and embrace the advice even though it clearly isn't working for you. Sure, try the advice but if it's not working, give it up.

 

[kollegedave]

Dave, I got the observational part of your post but I also got the part where you appear to chastise “internet tough guys” merely for disagreeing with John.

The point I was making was that voicing an opinion different from John’s does not make one an internet tough guy, or automatically invalidate those opinions, particularly when they mirror advice voiced by legendary champions like Mosconi, Lassiter, Crane, Balsis, and on and on. And you, of all people, should be fully aware that suggesting those that disagree with John should play him for money is the worst kind of argument.

Mosconi was not an exception, in fact he was part of an entire generation of players that played in that style. It is also interesting to note that in perusing the most recent issue of BD, photos show that at least two modern day international players, who happened to have just won the recent China Open -- Han Yun and Yu-Lung Chang -- appear to be deploying a very Mosconi-like set up complete with a short bridge and grip.

So who is right? The shortstops in Olathe? Or the international level guys?

Or maybe one size, one approach, does not fit all. YMMV. As much as your runs have gone up lately, maybe they would go up higher with a shorter bridge and grip

Lou Figueroa

Opinions that disagree with John are great if they are thoughtful and respectful of John. I was taking exception to some of the earlier post in this thread where some dude I never heard of chimes in and says "...my personal opinion is..." and then he supports it with very little "world class authority". Even if someone didn't know you from Adam they could look at your post and see that there may be an alternative to the method John originally espoused in this thread wherein a player that adopted this alternative method would be capable of world class pool.

Your disagreement is thoughtful and respectful and evidence based; it is something that civilized cultures require for advancement. You of all people should know that I appreciate that kind of discourse. Most of my work involves civilized argument where I am defending a very unpopular position.

I agree that Mosconi was not an exception during his time, but don't you think he would be an exception today?

As for the Chinese players. On some level they are international competitors because the international competitions are closer to where they live...The China Open. Are they going to be as tough if they play Skyler Woodward on a bar box in Poplar Bluff, MO? I think not. They are far away from home, eating weird food, in a different culture, etc. I think a lot American players have the same skill level or, at least the same skill level capability, but they are blooming where they are planted.

Upright or not, long bridge or not, I was trying to point out that all of us should appreciate the chance to get FREE tips from a top level player like John. I think thoughtful disagreement like yours should be ENCOURAGED, but criticism that lacks evidence and thought is not something that will encourage John Brumback to post more FREE tips that I can use.

Ultimately, I want FREE tips. :grin:

kollegedave

 

[Mikjary]

My tips are only my opinion. IMO I don't think there are many facts to playing pool. I can handle the disagreements just fine ( I might learn something every now and then too,I try). After all it is just a game that we all like to play. I don't mean to step on any toes and I don't mean to offend anyone either. So proceed with caution with my tips is all I can say,(some of them might be wrong for some or might not work for some).I just try to give my perspective on certain things when maybe I really shouldn't. But I have been having fun reading all the comments and hangin out here some lately. Thanks,John Brumback

John,

I'd like to hear what you think about what works for you and what you think is important in pool. We can ignore it, ask more questions, put it to use, or disagree with you. You're not bothering anybody by giving out free advice. :grin-square:

Thanks for the interest and understand there's a silent majority out there that doesn't post, that reads your suggestions. I have a pro friend who's been reading these forums for years that would never register. I've passed info on from him several times and got beat about the head and ears. Welcome to the "club!"

Best,
Mike

 

[lfigueroa]

I welcome your opinions, Lou. You've been off the block a couple of times and have the experience to know what you're talking about. Sometimes, your sarcasm gets old. I know, because I'm very sarcastic and get smacked by people around me, all the time. Takes one to know one.

Since the Pinoy invasion, less players are using the traditional 14.1 setup. I played a lot of straights in the day and adopted a "Willie" stroke, since he was the go to technique in pool.

Later, I started playing 9 ball and found I needed more power to move the cue ball. I changed to a longer bridge and moved my back hand towards the butt. Today, if I play 14.1, I do shorten up my bridge an inch or two. It's easier to control my speed with less stroke.

When I play banks, I use a longer bridge, but use a different stroke. In a 9 ball game, the stroke's similar depending on the position needed. So, as you can see, I've adapted to the newer, faster game and can miss balls with either method. But I look good doing it!

Best,
Mike

You make an excellent point, Mike, about how different games may require different variations on the same theme. However I cannot believe you think I could ever be sarcastic in a post.

Lou Figueroa
ever :-o

 

[lfigueroa]

Opinions that disagree with John are great if they are thoughtful and respectful of John. I was taking exception to some of the earlier post in this thread where some dude I never heard of chimes in and says "...my personal opinion is..." and then he supports it with very little "world class authority". Even if someone didn't know you from Adam they could look at your post and see that there may be an alternative to the method John originally espoused in this thread wherein a player that adopted this alternative method would be capable of world class pool.

Your disagreement is thoughtful and respectful and evidence based; it is something that civilized cultures require for advancement. You of all people should know that I appreciate that kind of discourse. Most of my work involves civilized argument where I am defending a very unpopular position.

I agree that Mosconi was not an exception during his time, but don't you think he would be an exception today?

As for the Chinese players. On some level they are international competitors because the international competitions are closer to where they live...The China Open. Are they going to be as tough if they play Skyler Woodward on a bar box in Poplar Bluff, MO? I think not. They are far away from home, eating weird food, in a different culture, etc. I think a lot American players have the same skill level or, at least the same skill level capability, but they are blooming where they are planted.

Upright or not, long bridge or not, I was trying to point out that all of us should appreciate the chance to get FREE tips from a top level player like John. I think thoughtful disagreement like yours should be ENCOURAGED, but criticism that lacks evidence and thought is not something that will encourage John Brumback to post more FREE tips that I can use.

Ultimately, I want FREE tips. :grin:

kollegedave

Mosconi would be an exception today. BUT I don't believe that would be because styles, techniques, and methodology have changed/advanced/improved. He would be the exception because he wouldn't have spent the last 50+ years playing 9ball. I would argue that if 14.1 remained or returned to preeminence then all the world beaters would look like him and the greats of his generation.

Look at the world class in billiards: Blomdahl, Ceulemans, Caudron, and Sayginer off the top of my head -- they all look like 14.1 players. Short bridges and grips and a more upright stance. So then I would ask you: why would that be? IMO it's because 14.1 is the pool game that most resembles 3C in terms of demanding precise movement of the CB if you want to run large numbers consistently.

As to the Chinese guys, well, I don't know how they'd do eating brain sandwiches in Poplar Bluff, but Chang did best SVB, Cory Duel, Rodney Morris, Oscar Dominguez, Shaun Wilkie, Jason Klatt, Darren Appleton, Karl Boles, Daryl Peach,Chris Melling, Thorsten Hohmann, Niels Feijen, Dennis Orcullo, Carlo, Biado, Warren Kiamco, and Lee Vann Corteza. So what if they all had to eat a few noodles and rice?

I know you love 14.1, Dave, so my point that you might actually be headed in the wrong direction with a longer bridge and grip, if you want to up your runs, was a good tip.

And after all, it was free.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

John,

I'd like to hear what you think about what works for you and what you think is important in pool. We can ignore it, ask more questions, put it to use, or disagree with you. You're not bothering anybody by giving out free advice. :grin-square:

Thanks for the interest and understand there's a silent majority out there that doesn't post, that reads your suggestions. I have a pro friend who's been reading these forums for years that would never register. I've passed info on from him several times and got beat about the head and ears. View attachment 344900 Welcome to the "club!"

Best,
Mike

Yes, I think we all, myself included, want to heard John's thoughts. I hope that is clear. And if it is not, go to John's website and look at the first review for his DVD he has posted. I am "Customer #1."

John and I have played several tournament matches and tossed more than a few back together. We have even kicked around the idea of writing a book together, though that hasn't gained any traction (yet . I am a big fan of John's and know he will not get discouraged over a minor amount of flak here and there and a few questions.

Lou Figueroa

 

[kollegedave]

Mosconi would be an exception today. BUT I don't believe that would be because styles, techniques, and methodology have changed/advanced/improved. He would be the exception because he wouldn't have spent the last 50+ years playing 9ball. I would argue that if 14.1 remained or returned to preeminence then all the world beaters would look like him and the greats of his generation.

Look at the world class in billiards: Blomdahl, Ceulemans, Caudron, and Sayginer off the top of my head -- they all look like 14.1 players. Short bridges and grips and a more upright stance. So then I would ask you: why would that be? IMO it's because 14.1 is the pool game that most resembles 3C in terms of demanding precise movement of the CB if you want to run large numbers consistently.

As to the Chinese guys, well, I don't know how they'd do eating brain sandwiches in Poplar Bluff, but Chang did best SVB, Cory Duel, Rodney Morris, Oscar Dominguez, Shaun Wilkie, Jason Klatt, Darren Appleton, Karl Boles, Daryl Peach,Chris Melling, Thorsten Hohmann, Niels Feijen, Dennis Orcullo, Carlo, Biado, Warren Kiamco, and Lee Vann Corteza. So what if they all had to eat a few noodles and rice?

I know you love 14.1, Dave, so my point that you might actually be headed in the wrong direction with a longer bridge and grip, if you want to up your runs, was a good tip.

And after all, it was free.

Lou Figueroa

Hohmann and Appleton play pretty sporty 14.1 with longer bridges, low stances, and grips at the back of the cue. However, your post has piqued my curiosity regarding the virtues of an upright stance and shorter bridge.

I wasn't sure about Saygner, so I went to youtube and I think it is fair to say that he holds the cue at the back, but employs and upright stance, and medium bridge (at times shortish I think).

I am interested to hear how to properly employ a more upright stance. Maybe we could get some lfigueora tips along with John's?

kollegedave

 

[Palmetto cue]

I'm glad you posted this John! I've enjoyed the discussion! A friend and I were discussing this very issue today about someone he was helping with lessons. He was trying to help with their break and asked them to shorten up a tad because they were miscuing fairly often. I think your point is a good one, but how long is too long and how short is too short? As always, I'm very glad to see you post here on AZ! Thanks for your help!

 

[poolplayer2093]

If you want a herky jerk ugly stroke.....just use a short bridge,that'll do it for ya. I keep reading comments that go something like this......"oh hey,you better start out using a short bridge,cause your not good enough yet to use a long one". That's the biggest load of crap that I have read on here in a long time. I would start a 2 year old out with a long bridge if I wanted him or her to get good. I'm thinking this might be one of the biggest and worst myths that I have ever read. The length of your bridge has nothing to do with and will not fix your crooked stroke. A crooked stroke is caused by your back hand and a short bridge will not fix that. John B.

PS: where do people come up with some of this stuff???

What's considered a short bridge. I think I messed up

 

[Pushout]

What's considered a short bridge. I think I messed up

These days, any thing under 15 inches:rotflmao:

 

[BeiberLvr]

Hohmann and Appleton play pretty sporty 14.1 with longer bridges, low stances, and grips at the back of the cue. However, your post has piqued my curiosity regarding the virtues of an upright stance and shorter bridge.

I wasn't sure about Saygner, so I went to youtube and I think it is fair to say that he holds the cue at the back, but employs and upright stance, and medium bridge (at times shortish I think).

I am interested to hear how to properly employ a more upright stance. Maybe we could get some lfigueora tips along with John's?

kollegedave

It's not just them, but the majority of pros today that employ a lower stance and longer bridge length. They can all run 100+

Heck, you can bring over any player on the snooker pro tour, and they'll run 100+ within two weeks with their low stance and longer bridges.

I'm with the group of people that say once a player runs 100, the only thing keeping them from running more is concentration and not getting mentally fatigued. Not their stance or bridge length.

 

[naji]

My tips are only my opinion. IMO I don't think there are many facts to playing pool. I can handle the disagreements just fine ( I might learn something every now and then too,I try). After all it is just a game that we all like to play. I don't mean to step on any toes and I don't mean to offend anyone either. So proceed with caution with my tips is all I can say,(some of them might be wrong for some or might not work for some).I just try to give my perspective on certain things when maybe I really shouldn't. But I have been having fun reading all the comments and hangin out here some lately. Thanks,John Brumback

Best thing i read; thanks John.

 

[Houstoer]

Thanks for the tips John. Keep them coming. Got any in the banks arena?

 

[Pidge]

It's not just them, but the majority of pros today that employ a lower stance and longer bridge length. They can all run 100+

Heck, you can bring over any player on the snooker pro tour, and they'll run 100+ within two weeks with their low stance and longer bridges.

I'm with the group of people that say once a player runs 100, the only thing keeping them from running more is concentration and not getting mentally fatigued. Not their stance or bridge length.

I agree. Its hard to teach someone how to concentrate.

One reason and one reason only why I think a lower stance, preferably the chin on the cue is so effective is the cue runs along the chest. I was always taught to get the vur to rub along the nipple area of the chest because its the most sensitive part so any fluctuation is felt more so. If you can hug the cue into your chest it makes stroking straight a hell of a lot easier. Not saying you can't do this with an upright stance, but taking it to the extreme of someone stood directly up, it can't touch the chest so has more room to waver aide to side.

 

[lfigueroa]

Hohmann and Appleton play pretty sporty 14.1 with longer bridges, low stances, and grips at the back of the cue. However, your post has piqued my curiosity regarding the virtues of an upright stance and shorter bridge.

I wasn't sure about Saygner, so I went to youtube and I think it is fair to say that he holds the cue at the back, but employs and upright stance, and medium bridge (at times shortish I think).

I am interested to hear how to properly employ a more upright stance. Maybe we could get some lfigueora tips along with John's?

kollegedave

If you watch one of Sayginer's trick shot exhibition videos he's probably at the back of the cue so he can crush the ball. My recollection watching him play in both an exhibition and tournament up in Chicago a few years back was that during actual play his grip and bridge is much shorter. His exhibition program is one of the most impressive things I've ever seen on a table, BTW.

As to the rest, I think we've hijacked John's thread enough. Instead, next time you practice 14.1 try a more upright stance for yourself. Report back; 200 words; compare and contrast.

Lou Figueroa
hey, he is kollegedave