All good man, we all have our favorites and that's what makes us unique. I still love George Lynch's playing after all these years.
Anybody gave up the pendulum stroke for good?
- Thread starter demartini rocks
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All good man, we all have our favorites and that's what makes us unique. I still love George Lynch's playing after all these years.
I think it doesn't hurt anything to believe that, but in fact it's not true. Lots of high-speed camera work and measurements and understanding the physics of the hit have shown that the grip/etc. (for humans) is not important. What is important is the speed and direction of the cue stick at impact.
Believing what you said about the stroke may be helpful to prevent bad mechanics that cause inconsistent strokes -- that prevent you from hitting where you want at the speed you want.
Spot on!
When I work with a beginning player, I'll teach them the pendulum swing. It is a far easier stroke to learn and I do believe that it can be a superior stroke to a pendulum in terms of accuracy. Try this experiment if you do use a piston stroke. Shoot the famous up and down drill with the cue ball. Place the cue ball on the spot and shoot it straight down to the end rail on the vertical axis. Use your normal stroke (if you have elbow collapse), a few tries and then try it using a perfect pendulum swing. In my own experience, I seem to be more accurate using a pendulum swing.
For the few arguments about not being able to generate power using a pendulum swing here is a video from everyone's favorite instructor the Oyster: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GsRIPSTWfo
Now with all of that said, I've decided against making the change to my own game for a couple of reasons. I've developed a fairly repeatable stroke over my 30+ years of playing (Hamb Method). It is a piston style stroke that was developed naturally by trying to keep the cue level on the follow through.
There are two reasons for my decision not to make the change. First, changing your stroke will take a lot of practice and time to be able to perform without thinking. How much time? One top instructor guesstimated a week. Scott Lee in an earlier post on this thread estimated one to two months. A top regional player that also is an instructor has been working on this change to his own game for four years and still struggles with it (in his words). Personally, I worked on it for a week and I know it would take me much longer to be able to do it without thinking about my stroke.
The other and more important reason to my decision not to make the switch is that it does change how the cue ball reacts. I'm not sure why, but If I want the cue ball to go to a certain spot using a pendulum swing it doesn't quite go where I think it should but using my old method it would if that makes any sense. I would have to learn two new skills, the stroke and cue ball control.
The tip will tell you what you are doing on the swing. Pendulum it will end up in the cloth. Piston it will stay at level of where you are striking the cue ball. The tip should be at level or lower. If the tip is higher than where you initially struck the cue ball then the shoulder is involved which is almost always a no no. There is one top player that uses his shoulder in his stroke, Mike Davis, but of course he has grooved this stroke with the Hamb method.
The one change that I have made to my stroke is to make sure the tip is a level or lower. On certain shots, such as hitting the cue ball with high karate (extreme high where the bottom of the tip strikes the cue ball with speed) I have a tendency to let the tip go high after contact. I've been working on limiting my elbow collapse with some success.
You stated why you have trouble with position play using a pendulum stroke early on in your post, but you didn't put two and two together. Using the pendulum stroke, you are actually hitting the cb where you want to. Using elbow drop, you are actually hitting it somewhere else.
Your brain has been fooled on what will happen when you strive to hit the cb where you want to. Try checking the chalk mark on the cb on set up shots and see if you are hitting the cb where you want to.
Yeah but I would still have to re train my fooled brain which would constitute a learning curve. The question then becomes is it worth the effort in the long run? Will it make me a better player? Would I become frustrated and go back to my old style which has had good results at times? A little time back I researched the top ten players in the world. Watched video of each of them playing. How many do you think used a pure pendulum swing? One, and that was Johnny Morra, everyone else had some form of elbow collapse.
Neil, I do respect your opinion, would you suggest Justin Bergman change his stroke to a pure pendulum?
If you are satisfied with your results, then there is no need to change. But if you aren't satisfied, then you need to change something to improve. In your case, it doesn't have to be switching styles. But it should be hitting the cb more accurately.
What you want to get out of the game pretty much determines what you should be putting into it.
As far as Bergman goes, why would I suggest that? He doesn't seem to be having a problem with what he does now. But just because he can play with his style, does not mean that you or anyone else can imitate just what he does. You don't have his brain to make his idiosyncrasies work for you.
No instructor is saying that everyone should switch over to a pendulum stroke. Or that they will automatically play better if they do. What we are saying, is that a pendulum stroke has some advantages that other styles do not. Which are, it is simple in form, has fewer moving parts, and is easier for the shooter to self-diagnose problems on their own. This means better consistency in use.
If one already has great consistency, which almost all top players do, then why go through the effort to change styles just to obtain what you already have? It's when one has troubles attaining their goals that one needs to start looking at ways to change to improve.
Thanks for your input. I do think that there are many instructors that view the pendulum stroke is an advantage enough that any level of player will benefit from it in the long term. That's why I have questions based on my experience with working several levels of students. I feel that the instructors have some responsibility to insure improvement from their students to answer this question before working with them on their stroking method.
You're making quite an assumption here with what I see as totally insufficient information. It could easily be the other way around.
KMRUNOUT
Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
Here's why I said what I did: Here is a quote from him-
"Shoot the famous up and down drill with the cue ball. Place the cue ball on the spot and shoot it straight down to the end rail on the vertical axis. Use your normal stroke (if you have elbow collapse), a few tries and then try it using a perfect pendulum swing. In my own experience, I seem to be more accurate using a pendulum swing. "
So, he definitely is more accurate with the pendulum. With the drop, he is putting some un-intended english on the cb.
He then states this: "The other and more important reason to my decision not to make the switch is that it does change how the cue ball reacts. I'm not sure why, but If I want the cue ball to go to a certain spot using a pendulum swing it doesn't quite go where I think it should but using my old method it would if that makes any sense. I would have to learn two new skills, the stroke and cue ball control."
So he knows he hits the cb accurately with a pendulum, but can't quite get proper position with it. Since we know he isn't accurate with the drop, let's use an example-
He wants to hit the cb at 1:00 to get his position. But he actually hits it at 1:45-2:00. He gets his position fine, but his mind told him he hit at 1:00. So, next time that comes up, he again tells himself to hit at 1:00 to get the same position. Somewhere in his stroke is a flaw that makes him not hit where he thinks he is hitting.
Now, he sets up the same shot and uses a pendulum stroke. He aims to hit the cb at 1:00 again, but this time he does hit at 1:00. So, this time his position will be different than it was hitting with a dropped elbow. It doesn't go where his mind told him it should go.
Maybe that cleared it up for you. ??
Sorry I didn't want to derail the OP's point. The point I was trying to convey was that switching to a pendulum swing after developing a repeatable stroke through the Hamb method may not be the best alternative for many players. My cue ball control is excellent with my past experience. I did notice differences when trying to switch over to a pendulum swing after going through the instructors class a few years ago. I wanted to walk the walk but found it very difficult for me to make the change and noticed the cue ball control difference.
I'm a fan of the KISS method to teaching. The pendulum stroke follows this paradigm. But If you already have a repeatable stroke without using the pendulum, then advising to make the switch might not be in the students best interest. Hence, the Bergman question because I asked the same question to a top instructor who believes that the pendulum should be taught regardless.
As far as the drill goes, it is a very small difference between my piston stroke vs. using the pendulum but I do seem to notice the difference but it is off set by the difficulty of making the change and the difference of cue ball reaction regardless of the striking point.
I do again appreciate the comments.
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So when Ronnie O'Sullivan said he copied Steve Davis right down to the shoes he wore, he ......accidentally found something that works?
I think I will copie Ronnie, thank you very much!
LOL - first of all I'm not a great player and if anybody has that impression they are mistaken. I also don't get too deep into aiming systems etc although I'm familiar with the discussions. When it comes to elbow drop I'm a firm believer whatever happens after the cue tip strikes the cue ball is 100% irrelevant.
https://screenshots.firefox.com/fM40ePEEdLkhd3HG/vimeo.com
I'm not a great player but I'm not lousy either and if I started worrying about things like my elbow It would serve no purpose other than to distract me and I'd be even worse than I already am. Regarding my stroke and my game in general it is directly related - as you saw in the video - to the walls being closer than optimal to the long rail on both sides of the table. The reason I pause is because frequently the butt of the cue is against the wall or curtain so I pause at the back and they push the cue forward. If I was going to give it a name I'd call it a push stroke. I also play position and patterns trying to avoid getting too close to the side. Sometimes I jack up when the cue ball is close to the side which cause the cue ball to jump instead of staying on the table like it would with a level stroke but the alternative is the short cue. I only play about 75% with the short cue and sometimes I'm too lazy to walk over and get it - old man syndrome.
When I go to a pool hall I always play better than at home because the pool hall doesn't have walls that close to the table but I seldom go to a pool hall because I'm too cheap - cheap old man syndrome.
So yes the elbow dropped but was level when the tip struck the cue ball so therefore I don't think it matters.
And by the way, I learned how to play exclusively playing snooker when I was a kid. Then I quit pool for decades when I was working and bought a table after I retired just for something to do.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
https://vimeo.com/77753947
I particularly like the way he does interviews, but I don't get much chance to copy him there.
I started trying to change my stroke using the spf technique and found I wasn't ready to go all that way but definitely a set before the final backstroke that I make sure is slow so as not to engage opposing muscles seemed to work best for me at this time.
I may play around some more with it but I have great accuracy and feel without the spf stroke and am unsure of any benefits it will have for me.
demartini rocks...The offer was to demonstrate the technique correctly, to see if you really understand the nuances and benefits from the pendulum stroke (obviously there are many posters in this thread who do NOT understand the advantages & benefits). Note, there was no mention of $$$...just an opportunity to learn something that you might possibly not know (even after taking a couple of lessons from Nic Barrow). Open minds open doors. Declining a chance to learn something for nothing (no doubt you paid Nic a substancial amount) is a sign of a closed mind. A closed mind is unable to learn anything else, because that person already "knows" everything. Best of luck with your improvement.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
After reading this entire thread, it is quite obvious that few people posting in this thread thoroughly understand a pendulum stroke...how it works, why it's accurate and repeatable, and what reasons there might be to switch. Nobody, including me, is saying that the pendulum stroke is the only way to shoot. As Henry clearly pointed out, the SPF stroke concept can be a way for players to become more consistent, if they have that problem now... regardless of what level of player they may be. To blindly state that the pendulum stroke cannot generate sufficient speed is simply ludicrous. That itself shows a lack of understanding of pool physics. To state that the pendulum stroke creates more tension in the swing is just wrong...again, lack of knowledge here. The whole idea is to let cue weight and timing create stroke speed...kinetic energy...not muscling the stick through the CB. Even on the break, muscling is not required...nor is extended followthrough, or lunging at the rack. These things just create the potential for more errors in the stroke (for the majority of players that do this). Accuracy and timing are the critical elements here...then learning not to grab the cue, and practicing speed control. You simply cannot take what elite pros do, and take it at face value...those players have grooved in their own concepts, and are quite good at making it work...for them. May not be so easy to try and copy that for someone else.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Hey Russ...Are SVB and April Larson enough of an example? Both used to be piston strokers...both are now essentially pendulum strokers. Both are many time national champions. I worked with both of them (as have many other instructors). There are certainly more examples, but those two are top of mind awareness.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
I trust you were a good interview after you beat Shane at 14.1....
...although you might have trouble being monosyllabic like many sports figures.
I think Earl is great to interview if you catch him on the right day....
...but Ronnie is always great press.
you are fishing aren't you as far as who I took instruction from aren't you? well to satisfy your curiosity I did not take lessons from nic barrow. I never even heard of that name. thanks for mentioning his name though-gives me something to look for while at work during break time.
I did pay for 2 lessons from some guy however. SPF was one of the things I did indeed learn, as well as stance and alignment. SPF is indeed very good for consistency in accuracy and the timing of addressing the cue ball. the pause is extremely crucial in the shooting process. other than that most of the other stuff I learned I've discarded.
I'm not "fishing" at all. If you don't want to say who your instructor was, that's your business. As one of the contingent of top instructors who recommend and teach SPF, I was a little concerned that you didn't "get it" correctly...and made an open offer to show you for free. Someone else mentioned Nic Barrow, so I thought that's who it was (unlikely, since Nic Barrow doesn't teach SPF). However, the end result is that you decided you didn't like it, and that's certainly okay too. Like I said, good luck with your game.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com