Anybody gave up the pendulum stroke for good?
- Thread starter demartini rocks
- Start date
that's cool. you are entitled to your opinion whether earl's technique is a pile of caca. just wondering why you think the way you do?
"Never take another man's approach as a model."
ahh depends on who the man is and what the sport or activity is.
in baseball i would recommend not to imitate the way hunter pence swings a bat.
in pool the way bustamante cues his stick.
in electric guitar playing the way jimmy page plays his solos.
"Never take another man's approach as a model."
ahh depends on who the man is and what the sport or activity is.
in baseball i would recommend not to imitate the way hunter pence swings a bat.
in pool the way bustamante cues his stick.
in electric guitar playing the way jimmy page plays his solos.
I bought the table used and I'd rather have a gold crown. It's an A E Schmidt. Is the name plate supposed to be at the other end?
Well, you are free to try that out. Most pros don't drop the elbow before contact. Let us know how your sessions with them work out.
I've watched a LOT of pro pool. I can count on one hand the pros I've seen who pin their elbow. The vast majority drop their elbow through contact.
KMRUNOUT
Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
Methinks you should watch them using stop action film. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you'll be surprised at exactly when their elbow actually drops.
I think an equally applicable quote would be "never belittle another man's highly successful approach unless you are that man". You have no idea what it is to be him. Foolish comment imo.
KMRUNOUT
Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
True dat. I was there when a minor player asked Strickland what he saw or was thinking when he was aiming his shot. Earl simply said he had no idea and not to ask him stuff like that because he didn't want to mess with what obviously worked.
Psychologists would simply say the stick and balls become an 'unconscious extension of the body'. In other words, like driving a car, you don't think about what the front wheels are doing when making a turn, you just go where you are thinking.
I've been working a bit lately on my transition from going back with the cue to coming forward. Watching pros I've noticed that some stop and have a pronounced pause at the stop. With most though, it's difficult to tell if they're stopping or not.
I've been thinking though.....How is it possible to take the cue stick PERFECTLY straight back and then bring the stick PERFECTLY straight forward without stopping at the transition....even if the stoppage is for such a short duration that it's undetectable to the observer...or the player taking the shot themselves?
I think the problem lies in the existance of "Elbow turbulence" at the point in the transition where complete stoppage should exist. That's what I've been working on eliminating in my stroke.
I mean...think about it. If you come back PERFECTLY straight with the cue, and then you bring it PERFECTLY forward, how is it possible for stoppage to not occur at the transition?
It stops, but you shouldn't be thinking about it.
I dunno if it exists, but I suggest you check youtube for film of Cicero Murphy who I watched play a few times. He not only has a long hesitation at the back of the stroke but an incredibly loopy stroke too. And yet he's in the Hall of Fame.
The key is you want a repeatable stroke. That's all that counts. And your body and mind will determine what that stroke will be. Of course the simpler the better, but never at the cost of repeatable.
As an aside, when I saw him on the road, he was traveling with Rotation Slim, a truly great player, but who was quite old at the time. Slim of course is famous for running out all 15 balls in a game of Rotation while never hitting a rail with the cue ball. Think about that.
Yeah, I think the installer set it up wrong...assuming there’s a diffference at each end.
....or maybe you’re just racking at the wrong end.
If you had score counters, that would be the end they go to.
...maybe your table is dyslexic....
...and thanx for lending me your Gina....can I keep it for another year?
Jimmy Page?
I thought your name may have been derived from Juan Demartini -a much better guitar player than Page, imo.
Either way, your analogy is sensible.
demartini rocks...IMO you either did not understand what the teacher was trying to teach you to repeat; the teacher was lacking in how to explain the benefits and ease of natural motion with the pendulum stroke (unlikely); or you did not practice the things you were supposed to practice, long enough for them to become ingrained (this should take a month or two...not a year). Are you located in GB? I would love an opportunity to show you what you're missing! :thumbup:
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
last year i took a couple of lessons from an instructor and was taught the pendulum stroke. i did this for almost a year but it was to no avail. i could not lengthen out my stroke, the timing was way off more often than on, and it was basically a year wasted in futility.
i studied earl's technique and have it pretty much down now. i'll never shoot as good as earl mind you all but i do at least feel better about myself in that my timing is waaay better regarding the addressing of the CB and stroke length has increased dramatically and i'm pocketing better. so now the game is more enjoyful.
anybody here like me just gave up on the pendulum and never looked back? and happier too?
I don't really shoot a regular pendulum stroke, at least not with the pinned elbow. I tried for a while, to check if there were any benefits, but while accurate in terms of direction, I feel that kind of stroke limits your speed control. This is something I see with people who use a very strict pendulum stroke, and I observed it when I tried it myself. I don't really subscribe to the "fewest moving parts paradigm", as I feel it is misguided and very unnatural. You can teach someone to pot reasonably well this way in a short amount of time, but the good parts end there... Our most sensitive bodyparts are our hands and fingers, and we get lots of "free" power from the wrist. Meaning that the wrist power allows you to keep your body still more easily . Heck you can stroke the ball that way without the arm moving much at all (not recommended, but possible). My wrist initiates my backstroke and finishes my forward stroke. Every player I have shown this technique to has improved as players, but it's very hard to put into words, much easier shown. It also depends on being aware of your hand pressure points, so it's not a super quick fix. It needs some work.
All that being said, people say I have a very orthodox technique. I use the 4 point contact and I don't really drop my elbow all that much. I shoot mostly with an open bridge now as well. I find it helps my aim, since I'm so low over the cue. I've even incorporated an elongated back pause. But I DON'T dig my tip into the cloth on my draws and my cue stays pointing only very, very slightly downward on my follow through on any shot, paralell for follow. Mostly, I don't really think about the elbow at all, just allowing the tip to go straight through, slightly downward will stop you from doing anything bad, and you won't have to strain for power or feel awkward doing it.
Using only the bicep to control the stroke is very awkward. You would never do anyting else that needs control this way! Would you try to paint your wall, using only your bicep/tricep to guide your brush (tape the brush to your foreram)? Of course not, it's a muscle for gross movement, not fine motor movement.
"Killing" the wrist action is a big mistake that will come back to haunt you later.
Pinning the elbow and killing the wrist is ok on slower shots, requiring less power. You can get by with it for most snooker shots. But when you really want to power the ball with control, say in pool, it will be limiting your power and forcing you to do other bad things to get the power you need (like jabbing or throwing your body into the shot or having a really fast, jerky swing). You see, the wrist, because it's at the end of the lever, has a tremendous amount of power when properly timed, as do your fingers. You can keep your swing slow and controlled instead of swinging your arm like a maniac. Allowing the elbow to slightly drop on the follow through, or maybe even a little before that will prevent the awkward feel and the unnaturalness of movement. It's hard to imagine someone throwing their arm out playing pool, but if there was a way to strain your muscle to the point of injury, shooting power shots with a pinned elbow would be it.
What I see from others and my own experimentation is that a completely pinned elbow and free swinging arm tends to speed the swing up. Causing speed control issues. I don't want that. I want a smooth, slow starting and controlled accelleration. My arm is moving slowly and is just a slow moving platform for my hands and wrist to work from, instead of being the engine that drives the stroke with the hand completely passive.
When you watch yourself on camera, is your tip in focus at least in the beginning of the stroke, or is it a blur throughout? That's how you identify a decent player a lot of the time.
All that being said, people say I have a very orthodox technique. I use the 4 point contact and I don't really drop my elbow all that much. I shoot mostly with an open bridge now as well. I find it helps my aim, since I'm so low over the cue. I've even incorporated an elongated back pause. But I DON'T dig my tip into the cloth on my draws and my cue stays pointing only very, very slightly downward on my follow through on any shot, paralell for follow. Mostly, I don't really think about the elbow at all, just allowing the tip to go straight through, slightly downward will stop you from doing anything bad, and you won't have to strain for power or feel awkward doing it.
Using only the bicep to control the stroke is very awkward. You would never do anyting else that needs control this way! Would you try to paint your wall, using only your bicep/tricep to guide your brush (tape the brush to your foreram)? Of course not, it's a muscle for gross movement, not fine motor movement.
"Killing" the wrist action is a big mistake that will come back to haunt you later.
Pinning the elbow and killing the wrist is ok on slower shots, requiring less power. You can get by with it for most snooker shots. But when you really want to power the ball with control, say in pool, it will be limiting your power and forcing you to do other bad things to get the power you need (like jabbing or throwing your body into the shot or having a really fast, jerky swing). You see, the wrist, because it's at the end of the lever, has a tremendous amount of power when properly timed, as do your fingers. You can keep your swing slow and controlled instead of swinging your arm like a maniac. Allowing the elbow to slightly drop on the follow through, or maybe even a little before that will prevent the awkward feel and the unnaturalness of movement. It's hard to imagine someone throwing their arm out playing pool, but if there was a way to strain your muscle to the point of injury, shooting power shots with a pinned elbow would be it.
What I see from others and my own experimentation is that a completely pinned elbow and free swinging arm tends to speed the swing up. Causing speed control issues. I don't want that. I want a smooth, slow starting and controlled accelleration. My arm is moving slowly and is just a slow moving platform for my hands and wrist to work from, instead of being the engine that drives the stroke with the hand completely passive.
When you watch yourself on camera, is your tip in focus at least in the beginning of the stroke, or is it a blur throughout? That's how you identify a decent player a lot of the time.
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Agreed- but it must be a repeatable stroke that is successful for the player in both making the object ball and delivering the stroke to the cue ball that results in desired position for the next shot- if the hesitation between the transition from the back to front stroke is not discernible to the human eye in real time then it is rightly considered a pool stroke without hesitation; as opposed to a pool stroke with noticeable hesitation- however slight. IMO for those who are still searching for the "most effective stroke improvement technique" - they need to know the difference between both types of strokes and decide which is most effective for them and employ it on every shot to be most consistent. Most pros who claim that they " just do it" and can't explain it are the ones who played since they were very young and probably never did much else in their lives for employment other than living off the game 24 hours a day. Many modern day players who grew up with more formal instruction in the game can certainly explain what they are doing. Going way back, I had several great old timers tell me that they had "no idea" how to explain what they do on a pool table - these are the guys that just played the hell out of the game their entire life without any formal instruction.
I have noted the username too but don't know Juan Demartini. Was thinking Warren Demartini of Ratt fame. Juan Croucier was the bassist.
I believe, based upon 1-on-1 experience, that Nick Varner would agree with this. That's a pretty good recommendation, right there.
r/DCP
Haha, voice to text fail. Warren from Ratt was who I meant!
axejunkie-yes my moniker is after the great and underrated warren demartini. a better technician than page.however, page in regards to songwriting and crafting riffs that will always withstand the test of time warren d cannot come close. these 2 dudes are in my top 3 or 4 guitarists of all-time.
btw, u nay catch some flack here from you or others but demartini wrote more cooler sounding solos than eddie van halen.
scott lee-gb has in green bay area? great britian? anyway thanks for your offer but i will have to respectfully decline.
btw, u nay catch some flack here from you or others but demartini wrote more cooler sounding solos than eddie van halen.
scott lee-gb has in green bay area? great britian? anyway thanks for your offer but i will have to respectfully decline.
last year i took a couple of lessons from an instructor and was taught the pendulum stroke. i did this for almost a year but it was to no avail. i could not lengthen out my stroke, the timing was way off more often than on, and it was basically a year wasted in futility.
i studied earl's technique and have it pretty much down now. i'll never shoot as good as earl mind you all but i do at least feel better about myself in that my timing is waaay better regarding the addressing of the CB and stroke length has increased dramatically and i'm pocketing better. so now the game is more enjoyful.
anybody here like me just gave up on the pendulum and never looked back? and happier too?
Not to start up a flame war, but this video is exceptional....
https://youtu.be/H5QrJGUocAo
Coach Barry, in 10 minutes, delivers the best explanation of elbow drop and how everyone is different (aided by great video examples).
When it comes to fundamentals, I listen to the snooker players and take notes.