As I said, if he has a problem with the request, feel free & take it down. The fact of bringing up hypothetical lawyers or what a court would do etc.... is why this forum can be so annoying. Threads always have to turn into some damn circus.
Anyone have a pdf of the shot set-ups for Bert Kinister's 60min workout
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As I said, if he has a problem with the request, feel free & take it down. The fact of bringing up hypothetical lawyers or what a court would do etc.... is why this forum can be so annoying. Threads always have to turn into some damn circus.
You must hate Bert too.
My post was in reply to the post that I quoted. I never questioned your reason for asking for the file. I own the video, made hand written copies of the shots to use at the table, and would love to have it on the computer so I could print it out and not have to look at more ugly pictures LOL.
Looking back at my post I see I forgot to hit the Quote button. My replay was to elvicash. Sorry for the confusion.
Woody
I am surprised with all of the back and forth nobody has replied to this. If you can't get them from Bert then everything else people are discussing should be a non-issue.
Since you continue to prove to be a jackass looking to start trouble, I am putting you on ignore.
I would not have even commented on the thread, but the tone of elvicash's post was what made me hit the post button.
Ill move along now, hope everyone has a great day and gets to play some pool!
I have plenty of purchased pool material. I think people should spend and support creators of material. I have a fairly large pool library. A lot of vhs tapes including Berts, Jimmy reids, Preacher Feeney and Grady to name a few. By people in the pool community writing about any of these other peoples/authors ideas other thoughts could be added to the pool of knowledge. If people want to talk about those ideas, share their own thoughts and add to that work they can do that it is not illegal. They actually make the work bigger with their additions. Anyone who cares would want their own copy of the original base source material.
I think there should be Wei table layouts based on all of the books. The authors should do this or pdf whatever but no one should complain if other enterprising souls extend the work. It is done in many fields, I do not think people who acquire a pdf are going to think it contains all of Berts thoughts they will want the video so they could hear his actual words in his voice. So the ones who are the kind who buy will still buy. Some people are not buyers they would never have bought anyway.
Let me ask a question if I take a lesson from a teacher is that knowledge mine or is it still the teachers. Is my pro 1 knowledge I got from Stan mine, is my Perfect aim knowledge is that mine to use in a game perhaps to teach another. I have had lessons from 8 or 9 of the best teachers in the world Brieseth, Schmidt, Lee (Jeanette and Scott), Wilson, Shuffett, Martin, Sapolis, Breedlove, Groce, . So can I pass any of that knowledge on to others either gratis or for a fee. I think it is mine now I can include the knowledge I learn using my words in my future work. I am an engineer not a pool teacher so that is not my point, my point is we are the result of all the ideas we come in contact with in everything including and especially pool. Same way with what I learned at Purdue that is my knowledge now, I can write a book, teach others expand the field I work in using those thoughts and concepts I learned at Purdue
In the physical world If you sell me a wrench I can use the wrench as a wrench like it was originally designed, but I can also include it as a component of another system I can even resell my wrench. It is mine to use as I see fit.
The same thing with ideas, you can do with them as you want. Add them to your system of understanding. You cannot own an idea. Patents and copyrights protect how ideas are implemented by the protected not the idea itself. If an author has a unique idea and wants to protect that idea then they need to not share the idea with others and keep it private. This is what is done in industry you come up with something awesome you sell the result but do not patent the process because the patenting makes it public and fair game for people to come up with a system which has similar results but implements it in a different method.
So if someone sells a service like lessons, or a book with a ideas on pool or a video lesson then others can make notes on that and share them they just cannot make verbatim copies. How many pool books explain shooting balls down the rail or have the same/similar shot explained. A prior poster in this thread compared the pro book and Berts 60 minutes workout.
In closing I suggest people that want to learn from Bert purchase his videos or a monthly PPV subscription. But if you want to write thoughts or a review of the shots or a just create a PDF document with the shots laid out as you understand them from watching the video I am sure that is legal.
Reason for editing -- I wrote 90% of the above on my cell phone and it was filled with typos.
I think there should be Wei table layouts based on all of the books. The authors should do this or pdf whatever but no one should complain if other enterprising souls extend the work. It is done in many fields, I do not think people who acquire a pdf are going to think it contains all of Berts thoughts they will want the video so they could hear his actual words in his voice. So the ones who are the kind who buy will still buy. Some people are not buyers they would never have bought anyway.
Let me ask a question if I take a lesson from a teacher is that knowledge mine or is it still the teachers. Is my pro 1 knowledge I got from Stan mine, is my Perfect aim knowledge is that mine to use in a game perhaps to teach another. I have had lessons from 8 or 9 of the best teachers in the world Brieseth, Schmidt, Lee (Jeanette and Scott), Wilson, Shuffett, Martin, Sapolis, Breedlove, Groce, . So can I pass any of that knowledge on to others either gratis or for a fee. I think it is mine now I can include the knowledge I learn using my words in my future work. I am an engineer not a pool teacher so that is not my point, my point is we are the result of all the ideas we come in contact with in everything including and especially pool. Same way with what I learned at Purdue that is my knowledge now, I can write a book, teach others expand the field I work in using those thoughts and concepts I learned at Purdue
In the physical world If you sell me a wrench I can use the wrench as a wrench like it was originally designed, but I can also include it as a component of another system I can even resell my wrench. It is mine to use as I see fit.
The same thing with ideas, you can do with them as you want. Add them to your system of understanding. You cannot own an idea. Patents and copyrights protect how ideas are implemented by the protected not the idea itself. If an author has a unique idea and wants to protect that idea then they need to not share the idea with others and keep it private. This is what is done in industry you come up with something awesome you sell the result but do not patent the process because the patenting makes it public and fair game for people to come up with a system which has similar results but implements it in a different method.
So if someone sells a service like lessons, or a book with a ideas on pool or a video lesson then others can make notes on that and share them they just cannot make verbatim copies. How many pool books explain shooting balls down the rail or have the same/similar shot explained. A prior poster in this thread compared the pro book and Berts 60 minutes workout.
In closing I suggest people that want to learn from Bert purchase his videos or a monthly PPV subscription. But if you want to write thoughts or a review of the shots or a just create a PDF document with the shots laid out as you understand them from watching the video I am sure that is legal.
Reason for editing -- I wrote 90% of the above on my cell phone and it was filled with typos.
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I have the streaming subscription to Burt's site. I've been working on the pattern drill videos, and sent him an email asking if he had a picture/measurements of the layout (as stated in the video). He wrote back that he lost them years back, and just to estimate from the video and I'd be fine. Not sure if the answer is the same for every one of his video's, or just the one I inquired about.
What I did, was set up the drill once according to the video (this is not the easiest thing to do to get the balls in just the right spots), marked my table with donuts, and then took a picture for future reference.
That was just on one drill that I've been working on for a while. It would be nice to have a drawing of the drills.
What I did, was set up the drill once according to the video (this is not the easiest thing to do to get the balls in just the right spots), marked my table with donuts, and then took a picture for future reference.
That was just on one drill that I've been working on for a while. It would be nice to have a drawing of the drills.
Hi Woody I think we played in the Allison league together. My name is Dana Stephenson. What do you not agree with buddy as I think this something that is misunderstood by many people here on AZ and in the world. I am not a lawyer so I would be willing to hear from someone with actual legal training but I have looked into what is on the net for the patent and copyright offices of the US government and that is what appears to be protected. How close to the the line the copier or secondary work can come to the original is not something I truly understand but I feel I could create a PDF document describing the locations of shots as I see them on a video and what I understand is to be gained or worked on via those shots without infringing on Berts copyright.
I understand many think sharing or starting a learning community based around such work of my own would infringe or economically effect the originators but I feel perhaps it would open up that author for further work and opportunities. This is much the difference in the PC world when comparing the Windows system with the Linux system. One is closed and commercial the how is protected, the other is open and shared. There is plenty of work in both worlds.
Another question I have for the people who would suggest that I am wrong with my opinion and want to grant an idea monopoly to the author of a video is the following. How many of you have generic materials in your home such as CVS mouthwash which compares itself to 'Scope' or 'Listerine', perhaps a generic pill in you medicine cabinet Walitan instead of Claritan. The generic packages call out the original by name in many cases.The original creator of all those items would prefer you purchase the original high quality item from them. When items are made available to or for the public they can be eventually copied or expanded on by others. You cannot protect an idea unless you keep that idea private/secret. You protect your work with a copyright but your idea is now in public.
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It's just wrong.
Bert toiled and took the time and effort to assemble the shots and now someone wants them without the slightest tip of the hat to Bert.
True, no one owns the shots -- but this is a specific shopping list of shots that Bert took the time and effort to compile that is being requested.
It makes me a little sick when guys try and justify stealing someone's work, wholesale, like this. Yep, you can half-assed justify it -- but it is strictly the result of a bum-assed pool player mentality. Doesn't make it right.
Lou Figueroa
Bert toiled and took the time and effort to assemble the shots and now someone wants them without the slightest tip of the hat to Bert.
True, no one owns the shots -- but this is a specific shopping list of shots that Bert took the time and effort to compile that is being requested.
It makes me a little sick when guys try and justify stealing someone's work, wholesale, like this. Yep, you can half-assed justify it -- but it is strictly the result of a bum-assed pool player mentality. Doesn't make it right.
Lou Figueroa
I think I am coming off wrong in this thread, I get the idea you guys might think I am sort of intellectual property thief. I do not feel that way at all I probably have as much purchased pool info/material as anyone in this thread well maybe the book collector has more I don't know. I have approaching 500 pool books, 50+ vhs taps of old stuff, DVD and even ryan elliot on cassette, taken lesosns etc. I feel I have spent alot of money. Trying to gain knowledge that others are making available. I feel that knowledge is now my knowledge that is why I bought the books to have the knowledge. Those books were all sold on the public market so those authors could share the ideas within with the people who bought those books. I bought alot of books new, many I did not buy new I purchased singularly or in groups or collections off of Ebay. I ask to see if they have any old books anytime I go into a strange pool hall. I do not mind parting with the cash. So I have bought some knowledge. I shoul dbe able to talk about whats in my collection in detail if I so wish.
Do you guys feel I would be wrong to create a document reviewing my thoughts not Berts on the same set of shots. Wow that is really weird in my opinion. What if I wrote a book report or went to a book club where we reviewed a book. That is exactly what they do in book clubs, that is what we did in high school and college reviewed details in books and broke it down into what the ideas were behind those details wrote book reports. Many famous non pool books have been reviewed and broken down ad nauseum in exquisite detail but you think it is stealing though it is obviously not per the US copyright office.
Well I am on the road working but when I go back home I might just create a document or two or perhaps a piece of software to enable sharing ideas because myself I think pool has long guarded it thoughts and not shared alot of info and that is another reason why pool has stagnated everybody is a protectionist and want to protect their own.
There has not been a place where people can easily share thoughts and ideas to bad there is not one on AZ. I still think there should be a place to share thoughts that users could create layouts etc. I am not talking about scanning in a book or making an image of a DVD I mean actually taking the time to make a document that extends the work in the books with the thoughts and ideas of the person reviewing or building on the original work. Perhaps thinking people would spend some time to create something and share it with others is to much to imagine where pool is concerned it is a real shame.
In the end if I wind up actually taking some of my time and creating 60 minute workout support workbook PDF I will make sure to give credit to Bert and I would also send a copy to Bert I am sure he would be glad to have it. Wherever he gets it, I hope the original poster finds a PDFto go with his tape. I am now done with this thread.
Do you guys feel I would be wrong to create a document reviewing my thoughts not Berts on the same set of shots. Wow that is really weird in my opinion. What if I wrote a book report or went to a book club where we reviewed a book. That is exactly what they do in book clubs, that is what we did in high school and college reviewed details in books and broke it down into what the ideas were behind those details wrote book reports. Many famous non pool books have been reviewed and broken down ad nauseum in exquisite detail but you think it is stealing though it is obviously not per the US copyright office.
Well I am on the road working but when I go back home I might just create a document or two or perhaps a piece of software to enable sharing ideas because myself I think pool has long guarded it thoughts and not shared alot of info and that is another reason why pool has stagnated everybody is a protectionist and want to protect their own.
There has not been a place where people can easily share thoughts and ideas to bad there is not one on AZ. I still think there should be a place to share thoughts that users could create layouts etc. I am not talking about scanning in a book or making an image of a DVD I mean actually taking the time to make a document that extends the work in the books with the thoughts and ideas of the person reviewing or building on the original work. Perhaps thinking people would spend some time to create something and share it with others is to much to imagine where pool is concerned it is a real shame.
In the end if I wind up actually taking some of my time and creating 60 minute workout support workbook PDF I will make sure to give credit to Bert and I would also send a copy to Bert I am sure he would be glad to have it. Wherever he gets it, I hope the original poster finds a PDFto go with his tape. I am now done with this thread.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with making your own diagrams of the shots and adding any info you want . As long as none of it is copied from his work.
I am not against doing what you are proposing here.
But, this is a different approach than copying his work and putting it on a PDF and sending it to people.
I LIKE TO SEE AS MUCH POOL KNOWLEDGE AS POSSIBLE BE SPREAD AROUND.
I have shared my knowledge of pool and my materials with lots of people over the years.
Thats not the issue, the issue is theft.
None of you went to the trouble of making the charts of shots, Bert did .
He spent his money to make them available.
Otherwise every time someone creates something, is it ok for someone else to come along and sell it with their name on it ? Or give it away , since they have nothing invested?
Everyone is free to do as they feel right, and live with whatever consequences that may bring.
Here is an easy solution , call Bert and tell him you and some friends want to send each other pdfs of his shots , if it is ok with him , have at it.
1 800 898 pool
I am not the copyright police , I am trying to help people understand why we should all respect copyrights and if nothing else , let you know how bad it can get if someone decides to make an example of you.
If any of you are interested in sharing info and is willing to do the work themselves, I would be happy to participate , all we need to do is start a thread and submit your shots, drills ideas, whatever.
Bert does not have them anymore. If I could buy it from him I would. Jeez, people on this board get so wrapped up in just "being right" they avoid comprehending any facts or logic.
I didn't get the impression that you are a wrong-doer (nor were your posts riddled with typos!)...
I am not a lawyer
but I do have work experience in the field from both protection of my employer's material and protection against liability arising from violations of other's rights by fellow employees.Sounds like you have a good sense of intellectual property rights, to me. One cannot take a book to the copier, but can persent the material in discussion.
Thinking further...my perspective is one that seeks to stay out of Court, rather than be solely be 'right'.
Can't buy it anymore? This page on the site would seem to indicate otherwise.
http://www.bertkinister.com/quickview/workout
You may need to buy at least a 1 month subscription to view it, but in exchange for your money you get access to all the videos, not just this one.
As for the ethics of diagramming and sharing the shots...
If I'm dying to know the 27 shots, and someone hands me a file with all 27 shots diagrammed,
WHY am I going to pay money for the video?
I won't.
Lost sale for bert.
I truly don't care about piracy, I just wish people would be honest. "Yes, it's not right, and yes, I do it anyway. I also occasionally go over the speed limit on purpose. Crucify me."
http://www.bertkinister.com/quickview/workout
You may need to buy at least a 1 month subscription to view it, but in exchange for your money you get access to all the videos, not just this one.
As for the ethics of diagramming and sharing the shots...
If I'm dying to know the 27 shots, and someone hands me a file with all 27 shots diagrammed,
WHY am I going to pay money for the video?
I won't.
Lost sale for bert.
I truly don't care about piracy, I just wish people would be honest. "Yes, it's not right, and yes, I do it anyway. I also occasionally go over the speed limit on purpose. Crucify me."